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Tight Booty Shorts posted:No one is saying this. I'm referring to a specific group of black men who didn't vote this election because they knew it was not gonna change poo poo for them. I know someone who did this, sexism wasn't the reason he didn't vote. That said, someone, maybe even you, basically implied upthread that black men couldn't be sexist. Seriously, go back and reread that stream of posts. It's loving ridiculous.
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# ? Nov 22, 2016 05:39 |
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# ? Jun 5, 2024 12:46 |
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JeffersonClay posted:What, that sexism exists and influences voting behavior? That it had a measurable impact on this race or on other political races? Yeah. The poli sci literature I'm familiar with says that women do not actually face much gender discrimination in electoral contests. It's on you to provide evidence that it's a thing in the specific and the general case quote:Does that political science literature isolate the three swing states that Hillary lost because she won the popular vote by a significant margin. I'm not sure what to make of this post. Her winning the popular vote would indicate the American electorate is not sexist? Do you think people in PA, WI and MI are uniquely sexist?
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# ? Nov 22, 2016 05:39 |
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Boon posted:That said, someone, maybe even you, basically implied upthread that black men couldn't be sexist. oh come on quote it if you're going to craft a strawman out of a post
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# ? Nov 22, 2016 05:40 |
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Boon posted:Just at the idea in this thread right now that sexism is just not possible in US politics. It's consistent with empirical data, so it's at least more reasonable than furious, reflexive screaming that anyone critical of Hillary is a sexist
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# ? Nov 22, 2016 05:41 |
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Hillary's campaign should've known about the sexism. She should've known about the racism. Its a little like bitching about the wind on a golf course and asking to have the game moved indoors. These are social forces that have been around in America since forever. Obama in particular understood that he would have to work harder than a white guy to get elected. Hillary was just an awful, entitled candidate who surrounded herself with dittoheads who boosted and amplified her delusion.
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# ? Nov 22, 2016 05:41 |
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JeffersonClay posted:Sexism is obviously a motivating factor in the US electorate, the question is how many people were motivated by sexism. Sexism is real and I accept that. What effect it has on the outcome of elections, I don't know. However bringing it up in response to the suggestion that people are in fact motivated by economic issues is not worthwhile. If it is sexism motivating people to abstain, you basically only have one good option: don't run a woman candidate. Your other option is to just go ahead and fire off explicit accusations of sexism.
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# ? Nov 22, 2016 05:42 |
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Proud Christian Mom posted:I look forward to reading how sexism turned Hillary into an absolutely awful candidate Hillary Clinton ran for president twice. Both times it was assumed she was going to win, but she ended up losing to a political outsider who successfully painted Clinton as the candidate of the status quo and themselves as the candidate of change. One did it from the far left of the American political spectrum with a message of racial inclusivity and big government programs, the other from the far right with a nativist, anti-immigrant message. I think Clinton is just a bad candidate
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# ? Nov 22, 2016 05:42 |
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TheScott2K posted:No. Incumbent intertia, rosy economic numbers, and Obama's ability to get Democratic voters to actually want to vote for him would have done the job. It's a lot harder to vote for Trump when his opponent isn't a hypothetical President but a real, arguably successful one. Arguably successful?
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# ? Nov 22, 2016 05:42 |
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icantfindaname posted:It's consistent with empirical data, so it's at least more reasonable than furious, reflexive screaming that anyone critical of Hillary is a sexist Who is screaming that? I just think it's weird that any mention of the subject gets met with lockstep skepticism and for a phenomenon with such a long, entrenched history as sexism that's really strange. Guy Goodbody posted:Hillary Clinton ran for president twice. Both times it was assumed she was going to win, but she ended up losing to a political outsider who successfully painted Clinton as the candidate of the status quo and themselves as the candidate of change. One did it from the far left of the American political spectrum with a message of racial inclusivity and big government programs, the other from the far right with a nativist, anti-immigrant message. Is it just completely inconceivable that she can, at the same time, lose voters due to being a bad candidate and an unwillingness of some voters to vote for a woman?
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# ? Nov 22, 2016 05:43 |
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Boon posted:I know someone who did this, sexism wasn't the reason he didn't vote. Just quote the post it's one page back dude
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# ? Nov 22, 2016 05:43 |
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Guy Goodbody posted:Hillary Clinton ran for president twice. Both times it was assumed she was going to win, but she ended up losing to a political outsider who successfully painted Clinton as the candidate of the status quo and themselves as the candidate of change. One did it from the far left of the American political spectrum with a message of racial inclusivity and big government programs, the other from the far right with a nativist, anti-immigrant message. As someone who got fully on board the Hillary train this summer/fall I have to agree. A lot of it isn't her fault but she is essentially unelectable.
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# ? Nov 22, 2016 05:44 |
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NewForumSoftware posted:oh come on quote it if you're going to craft a strawman out of a post Telephones posted:lol get hosed with this nonsense. It's not productive to make these accusations. NewForumSoftware posted:Can you by chance share the story of someone who you think didn't vote for Hillary because of "sexism"? I love your insinuation that everyone who voted for Trump basically declared themselves racist as they voted, but somehow that same hosed up logic doesn't apply to sexism.
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# ? Nov 22, 2016 05:44 |
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So because he told you that your concerns aren't valid he's a person who didn't vote for Hillary because of sexism? I'm not sure I follow. Boon posted:I love your insinuation that everyone who voted for Trump basically declared themselves racist as they voted, but somehow that same hosed up logic doesn't apply to sexism. I never insinuated that and it's a stupid thing to insinuate. If you think that stop it. NewForumSoftware fucked around with this message at 05:48 on Nov 22, 2016 |
# ? Nov 22, 2016 05:46 |
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TheScott2K posted:Who is screaming that? She didn't lose because of sexism, like many others have pointed out countless times. Did some voters choose to vote for Trump over her ? Yea, but I doubt these people were gonna vote blue anyway. I think it's a bulshit excuse because you don't wanna admit your abuela actually sucks
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# ? Nov 22, 2016 05:47 |
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Guy Goodbody posted:Hillary Clinton ran for president twice. Both times it was assumed she was going to win, but she ended up losing to a political outsider who successfully painted Clinton as the candidate of the status quo and themselves as the candidate of change. One did it from the far left of the American political spectrum with a message of racial inclusivity and big government programs, the other from the far right with a nativist, anti-immigrant message. This pretty much hits the nail on the head.
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# ? Nov 22, 2016 05:47 |
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TheScott2K posted:Who is screaming that? The actual data shows that sexism is actually not much of a factor in elections. It affects how many women make it to the election but does not affect their chance of winning. Maybe it has marginal effects, but the assertion that it's a major lurking elephant in the room that nobody will acknowledge does not hold up. It's probable that the same factors that select which women make it to major candidacy also select out the traits that sexism affects http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/why-we-dont-know-how-much-sexism-is-hurting-clintons-campaign/ quote:Political scientists will tell you that women do OK at the ballot box. “Being a woman doesn’t hurt you in an election,” said Kathleen Dolan, professor of political science at the University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee. What she means is that, when women run for political office, they win at about the same rate men do. Likewise, a candidate’s gender doesn’t seem to affect the amount of money she is able to raise for her campaign. And, should she fumble in her leadership, she isn’t judged more harshly than her male counterparts. But those rosy facts come from a body of research aimed at understanding the large gender-based disparities in American politics. With an average of 16.9 percent, the United States was 91st in female political representation at the national legislative level in 2011, behind more than 50 democratic nations. (It hasn’t gotten particularly better since.) Being a woman may not hurt you in an election, but it definitely seems to have an impact on the process of getting to that election — largely because women themselves are reluctant to run. And there’s reason to believe that reluctance could have a lot to do with how some women who do run experience a sort of sexism that scientific research isn’t really documenting.
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# ? Nov 22, 2016 05:48 |
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He didn't tell me anything duder. Half the posters in here can't nod there heads hard enough if someone says "Racism cost Hillary the election" but somehow they just glaze over when that same things applies to sexism. JeffersonClay brought it up as a possibility which was immediately ridiculed and mocked as if it's so loving outlandish.
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# ? Nov 22, 2016 05:48 |
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Boon posted:He didn't tell me anything duder. Yes because it is ridiculous and outlandish as is the idea that racism cost hillary the election. The reason they are getting ridiculed is that the arguments being offered are garbage JeffersonClay is a moron who's just saying whatever he can to not admit he's wrong
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# ? Nov 22, 2016 05:50 |
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Boon posted:He didn't tell me anything duder. So you have evidence for it? Or are you going to say "Duh it MUST be true!!!" for the fifth time?
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# ? Nov 22, 2016 05:50 |
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NewForumSoftware posted:Yes because it is ridiculous and outlandish as is the idea that racism cost hillary the election. The reason they are getting ridiculed is that the arguments being offered are garbage Well, we definitely agree here, anyway. icantfindaname posted:So you have evidence for it? Or are you going to say "Duh it MUST be true!!!" for the fifth time? Nah, I just found it hilarious because it was at odds with the partially accepted logic of racism costing Hillary the election (which I don't agree with either).
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# ? Nov 22, 2016 05:50 |
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TheScott2K posted:Who is screaming that? Absolutely conceivable, just not the reason why she lost. Plus my gut tells me that any people who would never vote for a woman aren't likely to vote blue anyway.
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# ? Nov 22, 2016 05:50 |
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Telephones posted:Sexism is real and I accept that. What effect it has on the outcome of elections, I don't know. However bringing it up in response to the suggestion that people are in fact motivated by economic issues is not worthwhile. If it is sexism motivating people to abstain, you basically only have one good option: don't run a woman candidate. Your other option is to just go ahead and fire off explicit accusations of sexism. These are people that convincingly voted against their own economic interests by voting for trump or 3rd party or abstaining. Perhaps this irrational, self-destructive behavior was influenced by something deep and subconscious like sexism?
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# ? Nov 22, 2016 05:51 |
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JeffersonClay posted:These are people that convincingly voted against their own economic interests by voting for trump or 3rd party or abstaining. Perhaps this irrational, self-destructive behavior was influenced by something deep and subconscious like sexism? Perhaps it's not irrational or self-destructive and they just are not willing to put up with four more years of Hillary. Like do you think suicide bombers are irrational too? People can get pissed to the point where they say "gently caress it" and will sacrifice themselves for a cause. I'm sure you would too given the right situation. You know what you have to do to get there vote and it's not very hard. "Irrational" behavior is just behavior you can't explain, please don't confuse your lack of understanding for insight.
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# ? Nov 22, 2016 05:52 |
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JeffersonClay posted:These are people that convincingly voted against their own economic interests by voting for trump or 3rd party or abstaining. Perhaps this irrational, self-destructive behavior was influenced by something deep and subconscious like sexism? Maybe they didn't think that voting Trump over Clinton was actually harmful to their self-interest?
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# ? Nov 22, 2016 05:52 |
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Tight Booty Shorts posted:She didn't lose because of sexism, like many others have pointed out countless times. Did some voters choose to vote for Trump over her ? Yea, but I doubt these people were gonna vote blue anyway. There is a non-zero number of men and women that voted for Trump because his sexist as gently caress comments are just how things are, are just locker room talk, aren't that bad that sort of thing happens to everyone, etc. Pretending sexism wasn't a large motivator for a significant number of people to ignore Trump's glaringly obvious flaws is naive. Like yeah, no poo poo, Clinton was a bad candidate but that doesn't mean sexism wasn't an important factor, and very possibly a determining factor, given the close races in MI, ,WI, PA, and FL.
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# ? Nov 22, 2016 05:53 |
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I remember reading a lot of articles on why Bernie was drawing in a lot more younger female support than Hillary and the general idea was that younger women just don't care as much about "get a woman in the White House. ANY woman and by ANY means." Maybe more of the "Millennials Are Spoiled Brats" idea behind it but I choose to more charitably describe it as feminism has come a long way. As for how this relates to Trump, I think the same principle applies. Women were not so hellbent on getting a lady president that they felt loyalty to Hillary. I guess the idea is that sexism just didn't consciously occur to most voters. Unless the focus on Hillary being sick is sexist? I would think it's more generally to do with a leader having to look strong.
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# ? Nov 22, 2016 05:53 |
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icantfindaname posted:So you have evidence for it? Or are you going to say "Duh it MUST be true!!!" for the fifth time? What convincing evidence has been offered for any of the theories discussed itt?
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# ? Nov 22, 2016 05:53 |
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Why the hell are you ruling out the possibility that some number of Trump voters genuinely thought he was going to be a better president than Clinton?
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# ? Nov 22, 2016 05:54 |
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Boon posted:He didn't tell me anything duder. He SPECIFICALLY claimed that these black barbers maybe were sexist. He didn't say "some people are sexist and would ever vote for a woman" JeffersonClay posted:Maybe some working class men (of color) made self-destructive voting decisions due to sexism.
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# ? Nov 22, 2016 05:53 |
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While absolutely nobody is arguing that sexism is a thing, i dont recall even once hearing the whiff of "she cant do this because of her sex". If anything it worked in the other direction. I lost count of how many times i heard "ive been waiting my whole life to vote for a woman president" or something like that.
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# ? Nov 22, 2016 05:54 |
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Admiral Ray posted:Like yeah, no poo poo, Clinton was a bad candidate but that doesn't mean sexism wasn't an important factor, and very possibly a determining factor, given the close races in MI, ,WI, PA, and FL. Do you have any data or evidence to support this idea or are you just spitballing because Trump said so many misogynistic things anyone who didn't vote for Hillary must be a misogynist?
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# ? Nov 22, 2016 05:54 |
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NikkolasKing posted:I remember reading a lot of articles on why Bernie was drawing in a lot more younger female support than Hillary and the general idea was that younger women just don't care as much about "get a woman in the White House. ANY woman and by ANY means." Maybe more of the "Millennials Are Spoiled Brats" idea behind it but I choose to more charitably describe it as feminism has come a long way. Remember when Hillary's friend (Albright?) said she wants to take these young women voting for Bernie and shake them by the head and yell at them to vote for Hillary
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# ? Nov 22, 2016 05:55 |
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MattD1zzl3 posted:While absolutely nobody is arguing that sexism is a thing, i dont recall even once hearing the whiff of "she cant do this because of her sex". Do you not remember 2008 and all the breathless thinkpieces (but we didn't call them that then) about how momentous it would be to elect a black person president?
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# ? Nov 22, 2016 05:55 |
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JeffersonClay posted:These are people that convincingly voted against their own economic interests by voting for trump or 3rd party or abstaining. Perhaps this irrational, self-destructive behavior was influenced by something deep and subconscious like sexism? If you can't see the difference between what you wrote and something like: quote:Do any sources that measure the effect size of sexism break these sizes down by race? I don't even know what to say other than reread your posts until it clicks.
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# ? Nov 22, 2016 05:56 |
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https://twitter.com/justinamash/status/800914868039655425 Well at least one Republican gives a poo poo (maybe)
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# ? Nov 22, 2016 05:57 |
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Guy Goodbody posted:Maybe they didn't think that voting Trump over Clinton was actually harmful to their self-interest? Tight Booty Shorts posted:He SPECIFICALLY claimed that these black barbers maybe were sexist. Yes, I am suggesting these black men had a self-interest in the patriarchy.
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# ? Nov 22, 2016 05:57 |
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JeffersonClay posted:Yes, I am suggesting these black men had a self-interest in the patriarchy. lol if you think there are people in real life that vote like this like what the gently caress is even your point? you're trying to say that it wasn't economics, it was racism. how are you even attempting to make that argument?
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# ? Nov 22, 2016 05:58 |
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JeffersonClay posted:Yes, I am suggesting these black men had a self-interest in the patriarchy. So is it good for black men to vote Trump because they're man or bad for them because they're black? Or do they just break even?
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# ? Nov 22, 2016 05:59 |
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Admiral Ray posted:There is a non-zero number of men and women that voted for Trump because his sexist as gently caress comments are just how things are, are just locker room talk, aren't that bad that sort of thing happens to everyone, etc. Pretending sexism wasn't a large motivator for a significant number of people to ignore Trump's glaringly obvious flaws is naive. Without evidence, your claim has no ground in which to stand on. You're assuming sexism was an important factor based off your feelings. Abuela sucked. Yea there was racist / sexist / stupid voters, probably numbering in the hundreds of thousands but without evidence, or a machine to scan their thoughts, we don't know.
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# ? Nov 22, 2016 05:59 |
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# ? Jun 5, 2024 12:46 |
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http://www.pbs.org/newshour/features/hidden-sexism/ Since it was brought up, it's probably worth reading this. I guess I'm kind of shocked that people here can look at what Trump has said about various minority groups and go "Yup, racism is definitely a big factor in this election" while completely glazing over everything Trump has said about women.
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# ? Nov 22, 2016 05:59 |