Tight Booty Shorts posted:

No one is saying this. I'm referring to a specific group of black men who didn't vote this election because they knew it was not gonna change poo poo for them.

JeffersonClay posted:

What, that sexism exists and influences voting behavior?

quote:

Does that political science literature isolate the three swing states that Hillary lost because she won the popular vote by a significant margin.

Boon posted:

That said, someone, maybe even you, basically implied upthread that black men couldn't be sexist.

Boon posted:

Just at the idea in this thread right now that sexism is just not possible in US politics.

Racism? Yeah you bet, it's the subtext to so many things. Sexism? Nope, not in any way possible, not even as subtext.

JeffersonClay posted:

Sexism is obviously a motivating factor in the US electorate, the question is how many people were motivated by sexism.

Proud Christian Mom posted:

I look forward to reading how sexism turned Hillary into an absolutely awful candidate

TheScott2K posted:

No. Incumbent intertia, rosy economic numbers, and Obama's ability to get Democratic voters to actually want to vote for him would have done the job. It's a lot harder to vote for Trump when his opponent isn't a hypothetical President but a real, arguably successful one.

icantfindaname posted:

It's consistent with empirical data, so it's at least more reasonable than furious, reflexive screaming that anyone critical of Hillary is a sexist

Guy Goodbody posted:

Hillary Clinton ran for president twice. Both times it was assumed she was going to win, but she ended up losing to a political outsider who successfully painted Clinton as the candidate of the status quo and themselves as the candidate of change. One did it from the far left of the American political spectrum with a message of racial inclusivity and big government programs, the other from the far right with a nativist, anti-immigrant message.

I think Clinton is just a bad candidate

Boon posted:

I know someone who did this, sexism wasn't the reason he didn't vote.

That said, someone, maybe even you, basically implied upthread that black men couldn't be sexist. Seriously, go back and reread that stream of posts. It's loving ridiculous.

Guy Goodbody posted:

Hillary Clinton ran for president twice. Both times it was assumed she was going to win, but she ended up losing to a political outsider who successfully painted Clinton as the candidate of the status quo and themselves as the candidate of change. One did it from the far left of the American political spectrum with a message of racial inclusivity and big government programs, the other from the far right with a nativist, anti-immigrant message.

I think Clinton is just a bad candidate

NewForumSoftware posted:

oh come on quote it if you're going to craft a strawman out of a post

Telephones posted:

lol get hosed with this nonsense. It's not productive to make these accusations.

NewForumSoftware posted:

Can you by chance share the story of someone who you think didn't vote for Hillary because of "sexism"?

Boon posted:

Boon posted:

I love your insinuation that everyone who voted for Trump basically declared themselves racist as they voted, but somehow that same hosed up logic doesn't apply to sexism.

TheScott2K posted:

Who is screaming that?

I just think it's weird that any mention of the subject gets met with lockstep skepticism and for a phenomenon with such a long, entrenched history as sexism that's really strange.


Is it just completely inconceivable that she can, at the same time, lose voters due to being a bad candidate and an unwillingness of some voters to vote for a woman?

Guy Goodbody posted:

Hillary Clinton ran for president twice. Both times it was assumed she was going to win, but she ended up losing to a political outsider who successfully painted Clinton as the candidate of the status quo and themselves as the candidate of change. One did it from the far left of the American political spectrum with a message of racial inclusivity and big government programs, the other from the far right with a nativist, anti-immigrant message.

I think Clinton is just a bad candidate

TheScott2K posted:

Who is screaming that?

I just think it's weird that any mention of the subject gets met with lockstep skepticism and for a phenomenon with such a long, entrenched history as sexism that's really strange.


Is it just completely inconceivable that she can, at the same time, lose voters due to being a bad candidate and an unwillingness of some voters to vote for a woman?

quote:

Political scientists will tell you that women do OK at the ballot box. “Being a woman doesn’t hurt you in an election,” said Kathleen Dolan, professor of political science at the University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee. What she means is that, when women run for political office, they win at about the same rate men do. Likewise, a candidate’s gender doesn’t seem to affect the amount of money she is able to raise for her campaign. And, should she fumble in her leadership, she isn’t judged more harshly than her male counterparts. But those rosy facts come from a body of research aimed at understanding the large gender-based disparities in American politics. With an average of 16.9 percent, the United States was 91st in female political representation at the national legislative level in 2011, behind more than 50 democratic nations. (It hasn’t gotten particularly better since.) Being a woman may not hurt you in an election, but it definitely seems to have an impact on the process of getting to that election — largely because women themselves are reluctant to run. And there’s reason to believe that reluctance could have a lot to do with how some women who do run experience a sort of sexism that scientific research isn’t really documenting.

Theoretically, women shouldn’t do as well as they do in elections. Numerous findings from sociological research suggest that a female politician is likely to be at a disadvantage because she is female. For instance, research shows that Americans think of certain traits as being part and parcel with good leadership — assertiveness, ambition, toughness, self-confidence — and these traits also correlate strongly with our gendered expectations for masculine behavior. They’re almost the opposite of what we expect from women. Given that we also know that women who deviate from gender stereotypes are punished for it, it was long assumed that female politicians would suffer in the polls simply because the mere act of running for office meant they weren’t being “feminine” enough, said Monica Schneider, associate professor of political science at Miami University.

But experimental research and analysis of actual elections have failed to find any evidence of this. Instead, over and over, Schneider told me, studies have found that, while Americans hold gender stereotypes about women’s traits and they hold gendered ideas about certain political issues, neither of those things seems to affect the way people vote. “On the whole, sexism doesn’t have a huge impact on whether women get elected,” she told me. Instead, political party is the primary factor people consider when voting, followed by incumbency.

Boon posted:

He didn't tell me anything duder.

Half the posters in here can't nod there heads hard enough if someone says "Racism cost Hillary the election" but somehow they just glaze over when that same things applies to sexism. JeffersonClay brought it up as a possibility which was immediately ridiculed and mocked as if it's so loving outlandish.

Boon posted:

He didn't tell me anything duder.

Half the posters in here can't nod there heads hard enough if someone says "Racism cost Hillary the election" but somehow they just glaze over when that same things applies to sexism. JeffersonClay brought it up as a possibility which was immediately ridiculed and mocked as if it's so loving outlandish.

NewForumSoftware posted:

Yes because it is ridiculous and outlandish as is the idea that racism cost hillary the election. The reason they are getting ridiculed is that the arguments being offered are garbage

icantfindaname posted:

So you have evidence for it? Or are you going to say "Duh it MUST be true!!!" for the fifth time?

TheScott2K posted:

Who is screaming that?

I just think it's weird that any mention of the subject gets met with lockstep skepticism and for a phenomenon with such a long, entrenched history as sexism that's really strange.


Is it just completely inconceivable that she can, at the same time, lose voters due to being a bad candidate and an unwillingness of some voters to vote for a woman?

Telephones posted:

Sexism is real and I accept that. What effect it has on the outcome of elections, I don't know. However bringing it up in response to the suggestion that people are in fact motivated by economic issues is not worthwhile. If it is sexism motivating people to abstain, you basically only have one good option: don't run a woman candidate. Your other option is to just go ahead and fire off explicit accusations of sexism.

JeffersonClay posted:

These are people that convincingly voted against their own economic interests by voting for trump or 3rd party or abstaining. Perhaps this irrational, self-destructive behavior was influenced by something deep and subconscious like sexism?

JeffersonClay posted:

These are people that convincingly voted against their own economic interests by voting for trump or 3rd party or abstaining. Perhaps this irrational, self-destructive behavior was influenced by something deep and subconscious like sexism?

Tight Booty Shorts posted:

She didn't lose because of sexism, like many others have pointed out countless times. Did some voters choose to vote for Trump over her ? Yea, but I doubt these people were gonna vote blue anyway.

I think it's a bulshit excuse because you don't wanna admit your abuela actually sucks

icantfindaname posted:

So you have evidence for it? Or are you going to say "Duh it MUST be true!!!" for the fifth time?

Boon posted:

He didn't tell me anything duder.

Half the posters in here can't nod there heads hard enough if someone says "Racism cost Hillary the election" but somehow they just glaze over when that same things applies to sexism. JeffersonClay brought it up as a possibility which was immediately ridiculed and mocked as if it's so loving outlandish.

JeffersonClay posted:

Maybe some working class men (of color) made self-destructive voting decisions due to sexism.

Admiral Ray posted:

Like yeah, no poo poo, Clinton was a bad candidate but that doesn't mean sexism wasn't an important factor, and very possibly a determining factor, given the close races in MI, ,WI, PA, and FL.

NikkolasKing posted:

I remember reading a lot of articles on why Bernie was drawing in a lot more younger female support than Hillary and the general idea was that younger women just don't care as much about "get a woman in the White House. ANY woman and by ANY means." Maybe more of the "Millennials Are Spoiled Brats" idea behind it but I choose to more charitably describe it as feminism has come a long way.

As for how this relates to Trump, I think the same principle applies. Women were not so hellbent on getting a lady president that they felt loyalty to Hillary. I guess the idea is that sexism just didn't consciously occur to most voters.

Unless the focus on Hillary being sick is sexist? I would think it's more generally to do with a leader having to look strong.

MattD1zzl3 posted:

While absolutely nobody is arguing that sexism is a thing, i dont recall even once hearing the whiff of "she cant do this because of her sex".

If anything it worked in the other direction. I lost count of how many times i heard "ive been waiting my whole life to vote for a woman president" or something like that.

JeffersonClay posted:

These are people that convincingly voted against their own economic interests by voting for trump or 3rd party or abstaining. Perhaps this irrational, self-destructive behavior was influenced by something deep and subconscious like sexism?

quote:

Do any sources that measure the effect size of sexism break these sizes down by race?

Guy Goodbody posted:

Maybe they didn't think that voting Trump over Clinton was actually harmful to their self-interest?

Tight Booty Shorts posted:

He SPECIFICALLY claimed that these black barbers maybe were sexist.

He didn't say "some people are sexist and would ever vote for a woman"

JeffersonClay posted:

Yes, I am suggesting these black men had a self-interest in the patriarchy.

JeffersonClay posted:

Yes, I am suggesting these black men had a self-interest in the patriarchy.

Admiral Ray posted:

There is a non-zero number of men and women that voted for Trump because his sexist as gently caress comments are just how things are, are just locker room talk, aren't that bad that sort of thing happens to everyone, etc. Pretending sexism wasn't a large motivator for a significant number of people to ignore Trump's glaringly obvious flaws is naive.

Like yeah, no poo poo, Clinton was a bad candidate but that doesn't mean sexism wasn't an important factor, and very possibly a determining factor, given the close races in MI, ,WI, PA, and FL.