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Wasabi the J posted:The military historically has not organized well for native Americans. Gawd drat http://imgur.com/gallery/XpnH0wM
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Dec 8, 2016 22:28
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Wasabi the J posted:The military historically has not organized well for native Americans. I dunno, the formations used in the Black Hills War were pretty good.
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Dec 8, 2016 22:51
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Wasabi the J posted:The military historically has not organized well for native Americans. Edit: missed the last page.
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Dec 8, 2016 23:28
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Admiral Bosch posted:It's me, I'm the idiot. I went to Standing Rock because I'm a big dumb retard who believes the police should not spray people with water in freezing temperatures. The veterans event was a complete mess and I don't even know where to start. You should post about this. I'm genuinely curious.
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Dec 9, 2016 01:48
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Godholio posted:You should post about this. I'm genuinely curious.
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Dec 9, 2016 03:03
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Admiral Bosch posted:It's me, I'm the idiot. I went to Standing Rock because I'm a big dumb retard who believes the police should not spray people with water in freezing temperatures. The veterans event was a complete mess and I don't even know where to start. Did you bring blankets? It would've been good to bring blankets.
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Dec 9, 2016 03:25
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Godholio posted:You should post about this. I'm genuinely curious. Same.
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Dec 9, 2016 04:07
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Dingleberry posted:Did you bring blankets? It would've been good to bring blankets. They've learned since then dude.
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Dec 9, 2016 04:21
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Dingleberry posted:Did you bring blankets? It would've been good to bring blankets. Just, you know, not from a smallpox ward.
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Dec 9, 2016 04:34
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it's 2016 just put smallpox on tweety bird and minion shirts if you're looking for some mass casualties
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Dec 9, 2016 04:37
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Admiral Bosch posted:It's me, I'm the idiot. I went to Standing Rock because I'm a big dumb retard who believes the police should not spray people with water in freezing temperatures. The veterans event was a complete mess and I don't even know where to start. Spraying people with water cannons in freezing temperatures was straight up hosed up. Regardless of what ol' Wes Clark Junior did and said and the various ways his statement can be interpreted, I totally get why you went: because that was a hosed up situation. Though I'd also like to hear about the real ground truth.
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Dec 9, 2016 05:08
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I'm about to go on school break let's all drive to the dakotas and do this poo poo. I've never protested anything and my knee jerk reaction will always pick basically anyone over corporate interests. I'm only like 25% joking.
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Dec 9, 2016 05:14
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iKon posted:Spraying people with water cannons in freezing temperatures was straight up hosed up. Regardless of what ol' Wes Clark Junior did and said and the various ways his statement can be interpreted, I totally get why you went: because that was a hosed up situation. Though I'd also like to hear about the real ground truth. I'm also curious about the thought process of "Cops are fed up with this large crowd that won't disperse, so let's add more people to it."
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Dec 9, 2016 05:19
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I'm engaging jon pop in gbs i'm the idiot
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Dec 9, 2016 05:19
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Not that I know much about the guy but Wes Clark Jr. seems like a self-aggrandizing dickhead.
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Dec 9, 2016 06:29
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Admiral Bosch posted:It's me, I'm the idiot. I went to Standing Rock because I'm a big dumb retard who believes the police should not spray people with water in freezing temperatures. The veterans event was a complete mess and I don't even know where to start. 
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Dec 9, 2016 18:40
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Admiral Bosch posted:It's me, I'm the idiot. I went to Standing Rock because I'm a big dumb retard who believes the police should not spray people with water in freezing temperatures. The veterans event was a complete mess and I don't even know where to start. 
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Dec 9, 2016 19:22
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Okay, this might be a little disjointed. First, a little about me: former Marine reservist, one combat deployment to Afghanistan, feel very strongly that this country, and by extension, the rest of the world, needs to get off fossil fuels for a plethora of reasons, chief among them being climate change. As stated previously, I also have some pretty strong feelings about freedom of speech, expression, and assembly, and the use of force to crack down on the use of these rights. I don't pretend to be an expert on any one issue. I felt a moral responsibility to answer this call for veterans to put their bodies in harms way again to protect people peacefully demonstrating(especially for a cause I was aligned with politically already), even if it was just for a short time. That sounds pretty melodramatic, but I really did feel something in my heart that made me feel like I had to go. Additionally, I was tired of shittalking on facebook about all my political opinions and never actually doing anything to back them up. I live in the Boulder, CO area, have for about 6 months. The way this "deployment" worked was there was a no-bullshit 5 paragraph order that someone drafted up and you were supposed to link up with a Regional Team Leader who were organizing transport all over the country, with a clearly delineated chain of communication and command. There were only supposed to be about 2000 people. This was not what happened. My group was fortunate - we had about 30 people from Boulder, Denver, and a couple other cities throughout Colorado, with some really, really excellent people. We boarded two charter buses and drove to Eagle Butte, SD, on December 3rd, where we slept in a gymnasium for the night. There was a whole check-in process, with the vague semblance of organization, but the guys there were running on about 3 days no sleep, and it was pretty clear that things weren't going to get better. December 4th, we wake up, and there's an "OIC" at the gymnasium who informs us that we're going to drive directly to the camp, check in with the veteran's tent HQ and legal, attend a ceremony welcoming the troops to tribal land, and go out on the 'front line' to demonstrate. The only thing that happened was we got to the camp. In a bus. On hardpacked snow and ice. There wasn't anywhere to stay, it was overcrowded, there were conflicting veterans groups(Veterans For Peace was there and they were separate from this thing that Wes Clark 'put together'), there were conflicting tribal groups, and lots of different things that people thought we were supposed to be doing. There was zero chain of command in the slightest. After getting dragged over half the camp instead of going directly to the legal tent like he said I was supposed to, I abandon this loving wacko vet who had taken half our people away from the other half, and return to where our bus was parked. It was obvious to me that the only thing to do was keep our group together, so I waited for everyone else to figure this out(which they did). Having regrouped at the bus, we decided that the next order of business was to find somewhere to stow our gear and have shelter when the sun went down. We commandeered a field tent that nobody was using, unloaded all our poo poo, and somewhere during this process word broke that the easement had been denied. When that happened, nobody knew what to do. We all felt pretty happy but also disappointed that we didn't get to do anything. Word eventually trickles down that someone higher up the nonexistent chain(a tribal leader, I think) that the buses needed to get out of the camp before the night was out. I was prepared to stay the night, but the consensus among the group was "pack all your poo poo back on the bus again and let's drive back south to Fort Yates," a town about 15 miles away on the reservation. This ended up being a remarkably good idea. The camp was full to bursting and with no apparent organization, it wasn't clear if everyone was going to be fed. Also, there was a pretty nasty weather system scheduled to roll in Monday morning, and nobody was confident in our tent's ability to keep us warm and sheltered. So, we get our bus unstuck about 4 or 5 times thanks to a front-end loader, and head down to Fort Yates, where people are sleeping on the floor of a gymnasium. We're fed, we're warm, and we're ready to do whatever the hell ends up happening the next day. Because of the weather, we were told the ceremony that was supposed to happen *Sunday* was going to happen today, now that everyone had showed up, but it was going to take place at the big casino on the reservation, so we bussed there... but we left about half our poo poo at Fort Yates, because we were told "we are coming back here tonight after scheduled events at the camp." I brought my chow, mess kit, toothbrush... but left my sleeping bag and trailpad. About an hour after we show up, it starts snowing, bad, with 35-40 mph winds, very low visibility. Cars that are arriving start getting stuck in the parking lot and dropoff area. We can't go anywhere. The event room at the casino is where everyone gathered, word was passed several times by several different people, numerous natives play music and sing(this got old really quickly), until finally some speeches and poo poo happen from the tribe. Wesley Clark Jr is standing about 5 feet away from me with 10 volunteers at attention behind him, with the few hundred-odd rest of us in a horseshoe formation around him, facing the tribal elders, listening to them give a speech. I got fed up, but I really wish I had stuck around for this... I slipped out of the formation after one of the speeches to go smoke. I hear later what happened - the apology ceremony. I'm not sure what to think about the action itself - obviously native Americans have been poo poo on for centuries, ever since Western culture arrived in this hemisphere. What bugs me is that he didn't tell anyone what he was planning, and he had waited until all eyes and cameras were on him. It rang hollow and smacked of a political stunt, that for all its heavyhandedness, probably worked. So while the message might be fine, particularly in light of the modern pipeline issue and other native troubles, the motivation bugs me. So this bullshit happens, and I'm chainsmoking like a motherfucker because I get anxiety when I am stuck somewhere with no way out, especially with tons of people nearby. Nobody knows what's happening, storms getting worse, I don't have my stuff, and I can't leave. It gets even more apparent that going back to the camp is a lost cause. After a while I calm down, I start drinking at the bar and shooting the poo poo with the other people I came with, trade some war stories, etc. It's a pretty good time, honestly. I manage to get some really bad sleep on the floor without my stuff. The next day, Tuesday, is more of the same. It's stopped actively snowing, but the roads are closed and frozen over, winds are still high, visibility still too dangerous to try to go anywhere, and hundreds more people are streaming into the casino, having left the camp due to the weather. And it's loving cold. After a very long, uneventful but stressful day, it finally clears up enough and the roads are plowed enough to leave the casino and get to Fort Yates. It took a very long time for all this to happen, and was dark by the time we got there. Wednesday arrived, and though we were supposed to leave pretty loving early to go home, but because of a very long, drawnout dispute with one of the two bus drivers(I could do an entire separate post about this) and the bus company, that went as far as getting our loving congressman on the phone to yell at the company, we left in the late afternoon. Our team leader holds his CDL, so we were planning on switching off our driver and him once the driver's DOT hours were met, just so we could do a straight shot home. And because of the other driver being a complete and total gently caress, we had all 30 of us on one bus, and nobody on the 2nd bus. But the contract was badly worded, and it stipulated that both buses had to stay together. So, once Driver #2 met his hours, he stopped at a hotel, and we were forced to also stop. We sent out people to get booze and threw a little rager, which was cathartic. This is pretty much the end of the story, because other than some more dumb poo poo with the bus company and driver. We got home, safe, sound and sane, thanks to some very good people that we ended up all looking up to. tl;dr - it was a loving unorganized shitshow that seemed to center around a publicity stunt by Wes Clark Jr. I don't regret going, as I was only trying to back up my opinions with actions, and I met some awesome people. Maybe later tonight or tomorrow I'll go over the BUS FROM HELL.  
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Dec 10, 2016 03:45
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I am disappointed in the lack of service ready cammies in this picture. I am not surprised in the least that it was an utter shitshow. Which is a shame because its 1 - not hard to put this kind of thing together if you have any measurable organization skills, and 2 - it was a cause that really needed good competent support. But to no surprise at all it was a cross between OWS and an FTE.
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Dec 10, 2016 03:56
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Genocide Tendency posted:But to no surprise at all it was a cross between OWS and an FTE. I heard there was a good portion of Burning Man too
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Dec 10, 2016 08:26
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Genocide Tendency posted:I am disappointed in the lack of service ready cammies in this picture. What bothered me most is that there were so many people, both natives and non, who kept saying "thank you for coming," when I felt like I didn't do anything. I wanted to, pretty badly, but that's not the way the situation panned out. I felt like a fraud. We soaked up a lot of resources and offered very little in return, which put lives in danger when the storm hit. There were a lot of older and disabled vets who in all honesty should not have come out. https://news.vice.com/story/veterans-brought-cameras-but-also-complete-chaos-to-standing-rock http://www.iamnetizen.org/2016/12/07/wes-clark-leaves-vets-cold-money-go/
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Dec 10, 2016 18:58
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Admiral Bosch posted:What bothered me most is that there were so many people, both natives and non, who kept saying "thank you for coming," when I felt like I didn't do anything. I wanted to, pretty badly, but that's not the way the situation panned out. I felt like a fraud. We soaked up a lot of resources and offered very little in return, which put lives in danger when the storm hit. There were a lot of older and disabled vets who in all honesty should not have come out. trotted around like a show pony and 'soaked up a lot of resources and offered very little in return' isnt that military.txt
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Dec 10, 2016 19:41
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Yeah it really sounds like this was flawlessly executed from the military playbook, honestly
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Dec 10, 2016 22:07
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maffew buildings posted:Yeah it really sounds like this was flawlessly executed from the military playbook, honestly Kinda. No brown people died.
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Dec 10, 2016 22:20
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That is what happens when you don't issue an Op Order and do a proper Risk Assessment *insert smug officer that I can't find or am imagining existed emoticon* edit: here have a new to me emoticon 
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Dec 10, 2016 22:22
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maffew buildings posted:Yeah it really sounds like this was flawlessly executed from the military playbook, honestly
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Dec 10, 2016 22:40
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Admiral Bosch posted:What bothered me most is that there were so many people, both natives and non, who kept saying "thank you for coming," when I felt like I didn't do anything. I wanted to, pretty badly, but that's not the way the situation panned out. I felt like a fraud. We soaked up a lot of resources and offered very little in return, which put lives in danger when the storm hit. There were a lot of older and disabled vets who in all honesty should not have come out. Here you go, Wesley. You see what happens? You see what happens, Wesley? This is what happens when you gently caress a stranger in the rear end, Wesley! This is what happens. You see what happens, Wesley? Do you SEE what happens, Wesley, when you gently caress a STRANGER in the rear end?
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Dec 10, 2016 23:19
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This tale of woe just reinforces to me that anything that resembles military rank and "organization" is just the loving worst no matter where it is.
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Dec 10, 2016 23:25
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Wait... I didn't keep up with this enough apparently.. Who the gently caress thought when the Young Turks got involved that it was going to be anything remotely helpful?
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Dec 11, 2016 01:01
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at the date posted:Here you go, Wesley. You see what happens? You see what happens, Wesley? This is what happens when you gently caress a stranger in the rear end, Wesley! This is what happens. You see what happens, Wesley? Do you SEE what happens, Wesley, when you gently caress a STRANGER in the rear end? AHEM. This is what happens when you MEET a stranger in the ALPS
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Dec 11, 2016 01:28
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Soulex posted:AHEM. This is what happens when you MEET a stranger in the ALPS FIND a stranger in the ALPS. You see, it's a legitimate SAR operation.
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Dec 11, 2016 01:56
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Bosch, I'm not military, I'm a civilian who had been completely demolished by the election results and kept down by the subsequent month. You may not have felt like you were doing anything, but take it from me--when I found out that there was a big cadre of veterans going out to stand up for the protesters, it did WONDERS for my spirits. I may not have been BORN then, but I remember Vietnam Veterans Against the War; vets protesting means a LOT. So thank you and all the other hopeless idiots for going out there. That kind of news was just what was needed to put a snap in the massive post-election funk.
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Dec 11, 2016 07:27
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LingcodKilla posted:Kinda. No brown people died. This is kinda the first time military folks showed up to a bunch of Natives gathering in one place and that didn't happen, so I'm gonna take it as a plus.
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Dec 11, 2016 16:02
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Redeye Flight posted:Bosch, I'm not military, I'm a civilian who had been completely demolished by the election results and kept down by the subsequent month. You may not have felt like you were doing anything, but take it from me--when I found out that there was a big cadre of veterans going out to stand up for the protesters, it did WONDERS for my spirits. I may not have been BORN then, but I remember Vietnam Veterans Against the War; vets protesting means a LOT. On the other hand, having served in the military, I have a knee-jerk reaction to support whatever cause a group of veterans is protesting against.
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Dec 11, 2016 19:53
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McNally posted:On the other hand, having served in the military, I have a knee-jerk reaction to support whatever cause a group of veterans is protesting against. This. I don't have particularly strong feelings about burning flags or kneeling at anthems, but when indignant vets start losing their loving minds about it, I end up on some kind of crusade to point out their hypocrisy. MOTHER FUCKER I JUST SAW YOU RUN IN THE OFFICE TO NOT STAND IN THE NATIONAL ANTHEM THIS MORNING. Wasabi the J fucked around with this message at 19:31 on Dec 12, 2016 |
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Dec 12, 2016 19:28
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McNally posted:On the other hand, having served in the military, I have a knee-jerk reaction to support whatever cause a group of veterans is protesting against. Been trying to figure out what this feeling is all week! 
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Dec 12, 2016 19:31
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This is one of the few times when I agree with angry vets and I'm not sure how I feel about this.
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Dec 12, 2016 21:24
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As a veteran, 99% of the time any opinion following "As a veteran..." can be assumed to be some complete bullshit, but there is always that other 1%
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Dec 12, 2016 21:27
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as a veteran, smdftb
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Dec 12, 2016 21:27
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Mike-o posted:as a veteran, smdftb
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Dec 12, 2016 21:29
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