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Silver Brushes posted:Not to quote myself but this online theory turned out to be correct in a big way. I thought the notion of imperial hubris was more interesting. Plus it makes Tarkin not just arrogant about not evacuating, but stupid. He knew about the whole Galen business, how would he not put two and two together and be like "oh they found the weakness he built"
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Dec 17, 2016 00:18
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Zoran posted:Having seen the film now, I'm wondering about this. Did the writers go in with the intention of killing everyone off, and therefore decide they only needed to sketch the characters; or did they come up with the characters first, find they couldn't find a satisfying way to continue their stories, and therefore decide to kill them off? The outcome of the movie is that the only thing left is what's in New Hope.
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Dec 17, 2016 00:20
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Babysitter Super Sleuth posted:the problem is that she just gives it up so easily. Regarding this, there's also the issue of how long of a time period does this movie take place in? People have commented in the past about how strange the scene after the Death Star escape in ANH is because Leia should be more upset about her planet getting destroyed than Luke should be about losing his new friend/master but in RO Jyn goes from: Just wanting freedom from containment and not caring about her father at all to wanting to find and rescue her father to mourning his death to the point of lashing out at people around her to making a motivational speech about action to genuinely believing in the rebel cause and willing to throw her life away for it to fighting to complete her mission even while her friends die around her. In a matter of what, a few days? There's no point in the movie where any significant amount of time could pass aside from a few space travel moments.
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Dec 17, 2016 00:20
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LanceKing2200 posted:Regarding this, there's also the issue of how long of a time period does this movie take place in? People have commented in the past about how strange the scene after the Death Star escape in ANH is because Leia should be more upset about her planet getting destroyed than Luke should be about losing his new friend/master but in RO Jyn goes from: It's the exact same problem with Rey. They both do the things they do chiefly because they're the protagonists in their movies--they're not motivated by anything in the film itself
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Dec 17, 2016 00:22
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Waffles Inc. posted:It's the exact same problem with Rey. They both do the things they do chiefly because they're the protagonists in their movies--they're not motivated by anything in the film itself Rey does do that, but not to the same degree. Much of her journey in TFA is about her coming to terms with the fact that her family is never coming back for her, even if she doesn't want to believe it. She always talks about going back to Jakku but when the chips are down she does the "right thing" in the moment. Jyn on the other hand pulls a full 180, literally going from "I think of my dad as dead because its easier for me and I only want to be free" to "I will fight and die for the rebel cause because it's the right thing to do" in a matter of what seems like hours. Rey doesn't have the outright selfish motivations that Jyn does in the beginning, and is even shown "doing the right thing" despite her situation when she rescues BB-8.
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Dec 17, 2016 00:28
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I was very surprised and not expecting Tarkin to show up, but I thought how they executed him was really well done. However Seeing Leia was so unnecessary and looked like poo poo. I'm blown away by the positive reaction here. I liked this movie a lot but the last few minutes were really embarrassing.
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Dec 17, 2016 00:29
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LanceKing2200 posted:Regarding this, there's also the issue of how long of a time period does this movie take place in? People have commented in the past about how strange the scene after the Death Star escape in ANH is because Leia should be more upset about her planet getting destroyed than Luke should be about losing his new friend/master but in RO Jyn goes from: We're not really given any understanding of why she would make those pivots, either, other than some general understanding of the bigger picture. It's like they sketched out a character arc but forgot to fill it in with details that show how the arc is made. It just kinda happens.
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Dec 17, 2016 00:33
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LanceKing2200 posted:Rey does do that, but not to the same degree. Much of her journey in TFA is about her coming to terms with the fact that her family is never coming back for her, even if she doesn't want to believe it. She always talks about going back to Jakku but when the chips are down she does the "right thing" in the moment. Did you not notice her breaking down when she watched the hologram of her father explaining that he missed her, and what his plan for the Death Star was? She stays with Cassian in the hopes of seeing her father again because she was putting up a tough exterior and seeing him again cracked that exterior. Jyn finally gets to see him after 16 years or however long and he dies within minutes. She lashes out because the Rebels killed him but decides to take his message to the leaders anyway, because its what he wanted. They don't believe her so and she goes on the mission herself, with the people who do believe her. The Empire took her family, and has taken the families and lives of other people. She decides to fight against the Empire.
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Dec 17, 2016 00:39
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Boba Fett.
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Dec 17, 2016 00:39
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LanceKing2200 posted:Regarding this, there's also the issue of how long of a time period does this movie take place in? People have commented in the past about how strange the scene after the Death Star escape in ANH is because Leia should be more upset about her planet getting destroyed than Luke should be about losing his new friend/master but in RO Jyn goes from: In ANH Luke goes from: Just wanting to get off Tatooine and not caring whether he'll be fighting for the empire to wanting to help Obi-Wan Kenobi fight the empire to mourning his death to genuinely believing in the rebel cause and willing to throw his life away for it to fighting to complete his mission even while his friends die around him. In a matter of what, a few days? There's no point in the movie where any significant amount of time could pass aside from a few space travel moments.
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Dec 17, 2016 00:39
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Waffles Inc. posted:It's the exact same problem with Rey. They both do the things they do chiefly because they're the protagonists in their movies--they're not motivated by anything in the film itself With Rey I think part of the problem is that TFA was, from its point of genesis, inherently a movie desperately in search of a a story, whereas the original six films were the opposite way: they were all very much stories in search of a movie to tell them. Luke's and Anakin's struggles are very obviously highly personal reflections of things Lucas himself has struggled with a great deal. I'm not overly familiar with the specific life backgrounds of Abrams and Kasdan, but regardless, Rey's fairly generic "I'm lonely and want a family" motivation doesn't ring as true to me in the same way. It all feels like they just came up with the ANH-derived plot first and foremost, and then went back and tried to figure out what could actually be motivating Rey to hit all those pre-ordained plot beats. And so they just went for the broadest, most obvious thing they could think of in an almost workman-like way. To me it lacks the immediacy and palpable realness of Luke's bittersweet yearning for something more over the horizon, or of Anakin's fear and anxiety over having to let go of his mother and then his wife. It's also a bit perverse that a movie which purports to be about the question "Who is Luke Skywalker?" basically chose to shun the input of the one man who most fundamentally is Luke Skywalker. Though I suppose you could draw an almost certainly unintentional parallel between the way Luke suddenly gives up and uncharacteristically abandons the good fight and the way Lucas gave up and sold Star Wars to Disney. Cnut the Great fucked around with this message at 00:43 on Dec 17, 2016 |
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Dec 17, 2016 00:41
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I think people are over-romanticizing how well developed the characters in the original trilogy were. They're pretty generic.
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Dec 17, 2016 00:41
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Baronash posted:In ANH Luke goes from: Luke specifically wants to join the Rebellion. It's made clearer in other scenes that were deleted but Luke's palpable excitement when 3P0 mentions the rebellion is pretty blunt. Luke wants to join the Rebellion because he longs for excitement and adventure but his losses and experiences change that longing from excitement to a real true desire to do good. It's not a particularly deep arc but it makes sense and flows coherently. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 00:46 on Dec 17, 2016 |
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Dec 17, 2016 00:43
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Admiral Joeslop posted:Did you not notice her breaking down when she watched the hologram of her father explaining that he missed her, and what his plan for the Death Star was? She stays with Cassian in the hopes of seeing her father again because she was putting up a tough exterior and seeing him again cracked that exterior. Jyn finally gets to see him after 16 years or however long and he dies within minutes. She lashes out because the Rebels killed him but decides to take his message to the leaders anyway, because its what he wanted. They don't believe her so and she goes on the mission herself, with the people who do believe her. The Empire took her family, and has taken the families and lives of other people. She decides to fight against the Empire. These emotions are likely what they were going for, but it's not in the film
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Dec 17, 2016 00:43
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Baronash posted:In ANH Luke goes from: Yeah but the difference is that Luke was never against fighting the Empire or joining the rebels. He literally wanted to follow Biggs and join the rebellion, and meeting Ben/having his aunt and uncle killed gave him the final push to actually do it.
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Dec 17, 2016 00:43
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WampaLord posted:I think people are over-romanticizing how well developed the characters in the original trilogy were. They're pretty generic. But they're energetic and fun to watch and have good dialogue.
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Dec 17, 2016 00:43
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Baronash posted:In ANH Luke goes from: This is facile OP and I think you know that
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Dec 17, 2016 00:44
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Can we also talk about the fact that Jyn doesn't actually do anyhting in this movie? Seriously the only things I can think of her actually doing herself (as opposed to something that happens as a result of her relationship with another character) are fighting back against the people rescuing her in the beginning, rescuing a kid during the city firefight, making an impassioned speech to the rebel council, and fixing the alignment of the dish at the end. Other than that she just shoots some stormtrooper mooks.
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Dec 17, 2016 00:50
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Magic Hate Ball posted:But they're energetic and fun to watch and have good dialogue. To be honest yeah. A lot of RO's character flaws would be provably forgiven if they were just better done. It's why the monks seem to be getting a lot more passes than the other characters despite not being any more developed. The actors are more charismatic and they sell their dialogue and lines better. They have an advantage of having much less screen time and focus so they basically get to do more with less. RO's failure is more with its two leads than anything.
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Dec 17, 2016 00:51
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ImpAtom posted:Luke specifically wants to join the Rebellion. It's made clearer in other scenes that were deleted but Luke's palpable excitement when 3P0 mentions the rebellion is pretty blunt. Luke wants to be out there with his friends. When he thinks his friends are at the Academy, he wants to go to the Academy. When Biggs (in one of those deleted scenes you're talking about) tells him they're leaving to join the Rebels, he wants to do that. He's a farmboy who is bored of the life and wants to be doing anything else, it'd be hard to label him as principled.
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Dec 17, 2016 00:51
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WampaLord posted:I think people are over-romanticizing how well developed the characters in the original trilogy were. They're pretty generic. I don't think they are. Like Luke isn't just some sort of one-dimensional, generic, wide-eyed, idealistic naif character. He's got layers, even in the first movie. In addition to moments showing him to be an uncommonly kind and caring young man, he also has moments of real, unvarnished sullenness and petulance, which sort of thing is always a bit of a risk in something that is otherwise supposed to be a breezy adventure movie. Yeah, sure, he may not have all the complexity and depth of a character in a Russian novel, but he has plenty for the kind of movie he's in--a lot more than in many other movies of the same type. Cnut the Great fucked around with this message at 01:04 on Dec 17, 2016 |
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Dec 17, 2016 00:52
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WampaLord posted:I think people are over-romanticizing how well developed the characters in the original trilogy were. They're pretty generic. This has gone on with pretty much every aspect of the OT, beyond just the characters. It's been a thing ever since the prequels, with a "This thing is something I don't like, and I'm going to use a lot of words to tell you that this apple is totally different than this apple, even if they are both the same apple". Unrelated, did blind guy seem to have some weird head motions going on, or was it just me? Not "I can't see so I'm moving my head to compensate for sounds" sorta stuff. MisterBibs fucked around with this message at 00:58 on Dec 17, 2016 |
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Dec 17, 2016 00:53
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Baronash posted:Luke wants to be out there with his friends. When he thinks his friends are at the Academy, he wants to go to the Academy. When Biggs (in one of those deleted scenes you're talking about) tells him they're leaving to join the Rebels, he wants to do that. He's a farmboy who is bored of the life and wants to be doing anything else, it'd be hard to label him as principled. That is not true at all. Luke at no point expresses any interest in joining the Empire. If you're taking those deleted scenes as factual then Luke explicitly says he'll never allow himself to be drafted into the Imperial Starfleet. There is never any indication at all that Luke has the remotest sympathy for the Empire. His conflict is that he wants to get off not for a cause but because the Rebellion represents excitement and adventure to him. He asks 3P0 about how may battles he's been in because those battles are a brave and heroic thing to him, not a real thing, and he thinks they're cool. That changes when his Aunt and Uncle die and suddenly it's no longer a game to him.The major change Luke undergoes isn't picking a side. He absolutely is longing for excitement and adventure but there's never a "well, any side is as good as the other." That person is Han who Luke strongly conflicts with. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 00:58 on Dec 17, 2016 |
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Dec 17, 2016 00:55
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Waffles Inc. posted:This is facile OP and I think you know that I think it's facile to claim Jyn is uncaring. She is keeping her head down and appears to have given up because that's what she thought her father did. As far as she knows, Imperials killed her mom and he went straight back to work for them. She clearly holds no love for the Empire, but it takes the reveal that her father worked to counter the Empire's efforts, his eventual death, and the realization that "looking down" is no longer an option after the first test of the Death Star to spur her into action.
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Dec 17, 2016 00:56
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Was an alright movie, need to watch it a few more times. I guess they could of used all the character building......but everyone dies.
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Dec 17, 2016 00:59
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Baronash posted:She is keeping her head down and appears to have given up because that's what she thought her father did. No it isn't. Jyn thought her father was dead (or at least wanted to). She in fact pretty explicitly wanted to fight the Empire and was super pissed that she got left behind despite being the best soldier at age 16. This conflicts a bit with other things in the story because Jyn is kind of blatantly pieced together from like two or three script revisions.
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Dec 17, 2016 01:00
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Baronash posted:Luke wants to be out there with his friends. When he thinks his friends are at the Academy, he wants to go to the Academy. When Biggs (in one of those deleted scenes you're talking about) tells him they're leaving to join the Rebels, he wants to do that. He's a farmboy who is bored of the life and wants to be doing anything else, it'd be hard to label him as principled. It's made clear even from the start that Luke dislikes the Empire and has an interest in the Rebellion. It's true that his reasons in the beginning are less principled and more based on a desire for adventure, but it's also clear that Luke has a good heart, and possesses a distaste for unnecessary cruelty and overbearing authority (demonstrated most clearly in the friendly way he treats the droids who serve him). He does develop over the course of the movie to become a more full and genuine believer in the Rebel cause, but the seeds of that development are there from the beginning. ImpAtom posted:That is not true at all. Luke at no point expresses any interest in joining the Empire. If you're taking those deleted scenes as factual then Luke explicitly says he'll never allow himself to be drafted into the Imperial Starfleet. There is never any indication at all that Luke has the remotest sympathy for the Empire. His conflict is that he wants to get off not for a cause but because the Rebellion represents excitement and adventure to him. He asks 3P0 about how may battles he's been in because those battles are a brave and heroic thing to him, not a real thing, and he thinks they're cool. Yes, good summary.
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Dec 17, 2016 01:00
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Tenzarin posted:Was an alright movie, need to watch it a few more times. I guess they could of used all the character building......but everyone dies. To no fanfare or emotion. Goodbye, ciphers.
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Dec 17, 2016 01:02
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I just saw it and I think it was worth watching just to see Y-wings doing proper bombing runs  .I liked it overall. I went in expecting a Star Wars side story, not Episode 9 or 8.5, and I wasn't disappointed.
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Dec 17, 2016 01:05
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Magic Hate Ball posted:To no fanfare or emotion. Goodbye, ciphers. I was pretty choked up. I mean, do they really need to telegraph how you should be feeling to you?
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Dec 17, 2016 01:07
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I'd say Jyn does enough, story or setting-wise. She's no Jedi, she's not with any Jedis (stick dude notwithstanding, I think it's a shame dude doesn't pop a Saber during this final walk), so the list of Things That She Can Do is gonna be limited. Analogy wise, most other Star Wars main characters see a boulder coming at their head, they can stop it with their mind or do a force jump out of the way. Jyn has to run. It's not pretty, it's not dramatic, but whatever.
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Dec 17, 2016 01:08
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ImpAtom posted:No it isn't. Jyn thought her father was dead (or at least wanted to). She in fact pretty explicitly wanted to fight the Empire and was super pissed that she got left behind despite being the best soldier at age 16. I'm just using LanceKing's characterization. He was who I was responding to even though I quoted you, sorry.
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Dec 17, 2016 01:08
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MisterBibs posted:I'd say Jyn does enough, story or setting-wise. She's no Jedi, she's not with any Jedis (stick dude notwithstanding, I think it's a shame dude doesn't pop a Saber during this final walk), so the list of Things That She Can Do is gonna be limited. That isn't fair. You don't need to have superpowers to be an interesting character in Star Wars (prequels notwithstanding). Look at Han or Finn or Lando.
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Dec 17, 2016 01:11
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MisterBibs posted:I'd say Jyn does enough, story or setting-wise. She's no Jedi, she's not with any Jedis (stick dude notwithstanding, I think it's a shame dude doesn't pop a Saber during this final walk), so the list of Things That She Can Do is gonna be limited. Jyn basically wrecks a bunch of Stormtrooper's poo poo early on in the film and is specifically characterized as being an uncommonly talented soldier even at a young age. There's no particular reason to assume she is helpless because she isn't a Jedi. (Also y'know, Han Solo exists.)
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Dec 17, 2016 01:12
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At least we know the reshoots were all just people dropping grenades, in the future everyone became a butter finger.
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Dec 17, 2016 01:16
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gently caress, if MisterBibs is agreeing with me, then I'm wrong. Yea, the OT characters are good, I was mostly being a devil's advocate cause I don't thing the characters in Rogue One are that bad, there are just more of them so we get less time with each.
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Dec 17, 2016 01:16
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bewbies posted:I really loved that movie and I really dislike goon movie discussions I agree 100% with this post, even more than I did when I originally saw the movie and before I'd read this whole thread.
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Dec 17, 2016 01:18
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ImpAtom posted:Luke at no point expresses any interest in joining the Empire. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5UW1PIplmlc&t=60s Literally wants to join up with the Imperial Academy
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Dec 17, 2016 01:24
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LanceKing2200 posted:Can we also talk about the fact that Jyn doesn't actually do anyhting in this movie? Seriously the only things I can think of her actually doing herself (as opposed to something that happens as a result of her relationship with another character) are fighting back against the people rescuing her in the beginning, rescuing a kid during the city firefight, making an impassioned speech to the rebel council, and fixing the alignment of the dish at the end. Other than that she just shoots some stormtrooper mooks.
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Dec 17, 2016 01:26
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jivjov posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5UW1PIplmlc&t=60s Luke wants to join the imperial Academy because it is a way to get off the planet and get actual training. Biggs was also part of the Imperial Academy and specifically uses it as a jumping off point to join the Rebellion. (And again, in the deleted scene, Luke states that there's no way he'll let himself get drafted into the imperial starfleet.) ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 01:29 on Dec 17, 2016 |
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Dec 17, 2016 01:27
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