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Poll: Who Should Be Leader of HM Most Loyal Opposition? This poll is closed. |
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| Jeremy Corbyn |
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95 | 18.63% |
| Dennis Skinner |
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53 | 10.39% |
| Angus Robertson |
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20 | 3.92% |
| Tim Farron |
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9 | 1.76% |
| Paul Ukips |
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7 | 1.37% |
| Robot Lenin |
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105 | 20.59% |
| Tony Blair |
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28 | 5.49% |
| Pissflaps |
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193 | 37.84% |
| Total: | 510 votes | ||
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Oberleutnant posted:so this is a thing 404 on the article there. On March 31, 1889, the Eiffel Tower is dedicated in Paris in a ceremony presided over by Gustave Eiffel, the tower’s designer, and attended by French Prime Minister Pierre Tirard, a handful of other dignitaries, and 200 construction workers. In 1889, to honor of the centenary of the French Revolution, the French government planned an international exposition and announced a design competition for a monument to be built on the Champ-de-Mars in central Paris. Vive la révolution, roll out the guillotines, etc. Kokoro Wish fucked around with this message at 11:36 on Mar 31, 2017 |
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Mar 31, 2017 11:33
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Kokoro Wish posted:404 on the article there. Should work now https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/mar/28/homeless-charity-workhouse-workers-rights-exploitation
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Mar 31, 2017 11:36
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Pissflaps posted:Not that tweet, the article earlier. She's got a secret plan for doing 'something' in six months time. Do you think theyre idiots for supporting Corbyn's politics or just for supporting corbyn?
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Mar 31, 2017 11:38
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Oberleutnant posted:Should work now Thank you for deeply horrifying me. I don't think that people can really deny that some people are trying to return us to the Victorian era anymore with this.
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Mar 31, 2017 11:40
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Kokoro Wish posted:Thank you for deeply horrifying me. I don't think that people can really deny that some people are trying to return us to the Victorian era anymore with this. Child labour coming soon to a xenophobic island near you! Oh yeah and those pesky workers' rights, healthcare and education, you don't need those, you just need some elbow grease and a stiff upper lip.
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Mar 31, 2017 11:43
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Also, thanks, Big Tone:That Horrifying Article posted:In 1999 the New Labour government exempted charities and other institutions from paying workers the national minimum wage if prior to entering a work scheme they were homeless or residing in a homeless hostel. There is perhaps no better demonstration that this country is yet to shake off punitive Victorian attitudes towards the “undeserving” poor... Such a great leader. New Labour, such a political god-send.
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Mar 31, 2017 11:45
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It's like people completely forgot about Charles Dickens or something.
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Mar 31, 2017 11:48
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Pochoclo posted:It's like people completely forgot about Charles Dickens or something. Not even the Guardian would serialise that nowadays.
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Mar 31, 2017 11:50
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Pissflaps posted:I think you're making this up. I disagree, the Corbyn leadership campaign was actually really well organised and good at getting a message out. Whether that had anything to do with Momentum I dunno, but it was a slick operation. What's bonkers is the idea that somehow splits in the Labour Party are preventing the leadership from doing good PR now. People working on Labour's communications don't need to phone up Hilary Benn or Yvetter Cooper to get their permission to put out a statement. There are people on the PR side (James Schneider, Matt Zarb-Cousins (though he's leaving), Seamus Milne) who are loyal to Corbyn personally, and there's the Labour PR team who will put out whatever they're told to put out. Corbyn is actually a really good leadership candidate but he's just a poo poo party leader.
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Mar 31, 2017 11:59
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goddamnedtwisto posted:Almost certainly. Most surveys show a majority of people are absolutely fine with things like nationalised utiilties, a generous social safety net, and a more redistributive tax system - as long as they're not described in those terms, because the Tories have done such a good job of poisoning that well. Well yes, and the question is whether it's better to compromise a bit on the messaging or to remain pure and let the Tories stay in power forever.
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Mar 31, 2017 12:02
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I think that charity should pay the minimum wage but let's not throw out the baby with the bathwater here. The guy says it helped people off the streets and housed and fed them for nothing while they gained valuable experience and esprit de corps. What would be left over anyway if they were paid 200 quid a week and had to rent accommodation and buy food?
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Mar 31, 2017 12:03
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Paxman posted:I disagree, the Corbyn leadership campaign was actually really well organised and good at getting a message out. Whether that had anything to do with Momentum I dunno, but it was a slick operation. I dunno how this is a controversial statement now. I was all for giving Corbyn time, and while it's been clear that plenty of people in the PLP didn't agree with that, you can only play with the hand you've been dealt & Corbyn & his team have done a loving rubbish job. Labour are at their lowest point since 1983 now. Yes, there's mitigating circumstances, the press is garbage, but at the end of the day if you can't do better than Ed Miliband did with a barely less hostile press then what the gently caress is the point? And no, Diane Abbott would be a terrible leader for exactly the same reasons that Corbyn has been. Probably even more divisive than Jeremy inside the party, a gaff machine on a par with Ken Livingstone, and she'd almost certainly end up using the same media team that Corbyn has used, who have been mostly garbage since the campaign ended. it's a honking bad idea even as a joke. I still think we need someone with genuine socialist principles leading the Labour Party but right now, if it has to be a Keir Starmer type to stop then gently caress, at least it's not Tom Watson or Hilary Benn I guess. The 2020 general election should be winnable because of the mess the Tories are in, but it looks like a pure fantasy. All that said, don't see most members sharing my views, suspect they will stick with Corbyn at least until Labour get absolutely smashed in a general election. And even a lot of them will continue to find excuses for him doing badly. At some point you have to ask yourself whether you support accelerationism or not. And generally, accelerationism is a bad thing for poor people forkboy84 fucked around with this message at 12:20 on Mar 31, 2017 |
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Mar 31, 2017 12:17
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Kokoro Wish posted:Also, thanks, Big Tone: I think you're kinda missing the wider point that before there'd have been no minimum wage, so literal workhouses wouldn't even have to be charities. That's a fairly big change.
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Mar 31, 2017 12:28
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So you don't think homeless people should have also been paid equitably for their work by charities specifically designed to try and get them back on their feet, or that this was basically workhouses under another name?Breath Ray posted:What would be left over anyway if they were paid 200 quid a week and had to rent accommodation and buy food? The knowledge that they are not worth less than the lowest valued and legally paid people in our society, including 14 year olds doing paper rounds. It's that weird "dignity" thing, you know. Oberleutnant posted:Haha what a oval office you are Kokoro Wish fucked around with this message at 12:52 on Mar 31, 2017 |
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Mar 31, 2017 12:36
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I might move into a workhouse soon but it's been converted into flats and cottages now so I'll probably be ok. Bit damp, though, so it might not be a goer.
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Mar 31, 2017 12:39
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forkboy84 posted:The 2020 general election should be winnable because of the mess the Tories are in What mess? I don't think 2020 was ever winnable without an electoral pact because the LibDems are still electoral poison, which hands the Tories a stack of western seats. But the Brexit referendum handed the Tories a whole lot more support. They're doing something the country likes, that dominates news cycles, and that will take at least 2 more years, and they are the obvious party for Brexiters to support because the opposition contains more Remainers. UKIP is now pointless, so Tories are no longer flanked on the right. They're in a fantastic position.
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Mar 31, 2017 12:42
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Only half the country likes it and the lib dems are on the up!
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Mar 31, 2017 12:50
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And the Tories have more to fear internally than they ever did from UKIP!
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Mar 31, 2017 12:51
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Breath Ray posted:I think that charity should pay the minimum wage but let's not throw out the baby with the bathwater here. The guy says it helped people off the streets and housed and fed them for nothing while they gained valuable experience and esprit de corps. What would be left over anyway if they were paid 200 quid a week and had to rent accommodation and buy food? Haha what a oval office you are
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Mar 31, 2017 12:51
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Nah, man. It's totes fine that the party of Labour denies the least fortunate people in our society equal pay for equal work. What do you think that is, some kind of tenent or something.
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Mar 31, 2017 12:54
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https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/847780132156829701 Labour would lose eight seats Tories would gain seven and lose two Lib Dems would win three
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Mar 31, 2017 13:03
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forkboy84 posted:Labour are at their lowest point since 1983 now.
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Mar 31, 2017 13:04
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Kokoro Wish posted:Nah, man. It's totes fine that the party of Labour denies the least fortunate people in our society equal pay for equal work. What do you think that is, some kind of tenent or something. Do you mean tenant, tenet, or tenement? Tenent isn't a word in modern English and your meaning isn't clear
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Mar 31, 2017 13:08
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It's an old-rear end spelling of tenet with the same meaning. Not modern. About as old and defunct as the Victorian workh... oh wait a minute.
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Mar 31, 2017 13:10
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Breath Ray posted:I think that charity should pay the minimum wage but let's not throw out the baby with the bathwater here. The guy says it helped people off the streets and housed and fed them for nothing while they gained valuable experience and esprit de corps. What would be left over anyway if they were paid 200 quid a week and had to rent accommodation and buy food? Isn't this relatively easy to resolve by upping wages to min wage and also offering workers food / clothing / accommodation at below market rates instead of providing them "free"? Edited for quotation marks around free, no need to be so hostile. Party Boat fucked around with this message at 13:15 on Mar 31, 2017 |
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Mar 31, 2017 13:13
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Accommodation isn't given "for nothing" if you have to work for it you tit
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Mar 31, 2017 13:13
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Suffice to say a lot of homeless charities can be exploitative fucks. I've been to one in Manchester where they essentially run it as a benefits racket, getting people on the dole and then proceeding to take all of it away as 'rent', so at best it leaves these people treading water for a while. It's not actually that hard to get this poo poo right either. gently caress NIMBYs, build more affordable housing, exponentially tax ownership of multiple properties, use proceeds to fund subsidies of shelters. e : and for Christ sake stop sending cops around and sticking spikes on everything hoping that this homeless problem just vanishes in a puff of smoke. a neurotic ai fucked around with this message at 13:25 on Mar 31, 2017 |
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Mar 31, 2017 13:21
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Party Boat posted:Isn't this relatively easy to resolve by upping wages to min wage and also offering workers food / clothing / accommodation at below market rates instead of providing them "free"?
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Mar 31, 2017 13:27
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Except they proved that if you just give homeless people homes and money that doesn't happen and it costs less in the long run. The current thinking appears to be that if you fine homeless people £1500 for being homeless then the problem will resolve itself and it won't just result in court costs for unpaid fines that will never be paid.
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Mar 31, 2017 13:30
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Guavanaut posted:They're pegged to the pound. I don't want to find this funny  Oh dear me posted:What mess? Theresa May's reign has been gently caress up after gently caress up, unpopular policy after unpopular policy. The only thing she's doing that people like is Hard Brexit. From Grammar Schools to the NI raise for the self-employed, toadying up to Donald Trump, the relatively common U-turns after less than a year in office. With a better opposition that wasn't more interested in its own in-fighting, she's right there for the taking. jBrereton posted:I would assume they think it's harm reduction to effectively dock the food/clothing/accommodation before they can spend it on booze/drugs which is what led them to be wards of the third sector rather than give people 12 grand a year after taxes and act surprised when they get hosed up and don't pay their bills, because does a housing charity really want to set the bailiffs on vulnerable people who can't pay? No. Not all homeless people are addicts, stop that. And a homeless "charity" more interested in taking folks benefits of them than actually helping probably needs to be fired into the sun because that's just helping no one but themselves. Dehumanising the homeless does gently caress all good, except help make self-righteous cunts (& boring trolls like Breath Ray) feel better about themselves.
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Mar 31, 2017 13:31
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Yeah, you can literally give homeless people a one room concrete home with basic furnishings for them to own and not have to pay back and it will effectively allow them to become productive members of society again and contribute once more. It's cheaper than all the policing and enforcement you'd have to engage in otherwise. That means that you'd have to not treat them as an otherised, skiving blight on decent people. You'd have to believe that they were unfortunate people that have fallen on hard times and are in desperate need of help. Kokoro Wish fucked around with this message at 13:42 on Mar 31, 2017 |
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Mar 31, 2017 13:33
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Breath Ray finally lands a shot  forkboy84 posted:I dunno how this is a controversial statement now. I was all for giving Corbyn time, and while it's been clear that plenty of people in the PLP didn't agree with that, you can only play with the hand you've been dealt & Corbyn & his team have done a loving rubbish job. Labour are at their lowest point since 1983 now. Yes, there's mitigating circumstances, the press is garbage, but at the end of the day if you can't do better than Ed Miliband did with a barely less hostile press then what the gently caress is the point? Well the point is that triggering Article 50 is sort of a turning point - this is where all the goodwill and optimism the Tories have been riding high on starts to get replaced with responses to what they're actually delivering, what the country is actually facing and how it falls short of what's been promised. Labour had to spend a bunch of political capital positioning themselves to take advantage of this, so the polls are (in part) down to what's been happening on both sides, good for the Tories and bad for Labour. So you'd expect some sort of adjustment in the next few months (hopefully) as the negotiations take place and there's something specific to criticise, and the reality of what's going to happen starts to hit home And if they're talking about September specifically, maybe there's something in the works? Is that when the leadership rule changes are meant to be passed?
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Mar 31, 2017 13:39
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forkboy84 posted:Not all homeless people are addicts, stop that. quote:And a homeless "charity" more interested in taking folks benefits of them than actually helping probably needs to be fired into the sun because that's just helping no one but themselves.
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Mar 31, 2017 13:41
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Paxman posted:Well yes, and the question is whether it's better to compromise a bit on the messaging or to remain pure and let the Tories stay in power forever. Nobody cares if you compromise on the messaging, the problem was New Labour compromised on the principles which is why we still have privatised utilities, why the social safety net was eroded in favour of means-tested benefits, and why regressive taxes like VAT and NI weren't thoroughly reformed in their decade of more-or-less unopposed power.
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Mar 31, 2017 13:43
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jBrereton posted:Absolutely, but many are, as the writer of the article said. Many people are homeless because of untreated/self-medicated mental health problems. I'm not being a oval office by saying that, it is genuinely true, and dealing with homelessness in a long term way requires dealing with every aspect of that, from dealing with the causes of the original trauma to better mental health access and a better housing situation for everyone. And again, if they had a simple, secure place of their own given to them, not only does the sense of ownership and security lend to their mental health, but it gives them a firm foundation for them to seek further help and is cheaper on society in the long run.
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Mar 31, 2017 13:45
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baka kaba posted:Breath Ray finally lands a shot Yeah - I am getting the distinct feeling that May's honeymoon from the right wing/centrist media is now officially over now that Article 50's been triggered and its happening (rather than it being something everyone could project their own wishes/fantasies onto). Cold hard reality is beginning to set in and the number of negative articles are increasing. Whilst the Mail/Express et al will happily go along with the inevitable "Vengeful Brussels/Germans/French STITCH UP BRITAIN!" narratives, I'm fairly confident they are also going to turn on May - nothing she can do in these negotiations (short of an all out nuclear attack on every EU capital) will be strong enough to satisfy them.
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Mar 31, 2017 13:46
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jBrereton posted:Absolutely, but many are, as the writer of the article said. Many people are homeless because of untreated/self-medicated mental health problems. I'm not being a oval office by saying that, it is genuinely true, and dealing with homelessness in a long term way requires dealing with every aspect of that, from dealing with the causes of the original trauma to better mental health access and a better housing situation for everyone. I agree with all of that, but I don't see how dehumanisation actually helps, which is what taking away all of someone's money from them in exchange for letting them live in a workhouse is. Clearly there is no one simple answer to homelessness or it would no longer be a problem, but it's undeniable that actually improving the availability and quality of mental health issues to an even level with physical health issues would be a good starting point, and for a myriad of other problems too. Frankly it is far too easy to slip through the cracks, GPs are quite happy to renew your prescription by email for years without actually seeing you, meaning it's incredibly easy to fall through the gaps. Meanwhile, if you've got a physical ailment, or are showing the warning signs of one you get a letter sent out every 6 months practically pleading with you to come in for a check up. Of course all of this is going to involve a huge investment in the health service which simply won't happen under a Tory government.
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Mar 31, 2017 13:48
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Now that article 50 is triggered it's a case of which party is pushing for the better policies in the deal. Now, having watched that May interview on Wednesday be a total car crash I was hoping that Corbyn would stomp her in the rebuttal interview... but despite some strong moments he mostly just puttered on what should've been a slam dunk, especially given Brillo's obvious contempt for May.
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Mar 31, 2017 13:54
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Tesseraction posted:Now that article 50 is triggered it's a case of which party is pushing for the better policies in the deal. Now, having watched that May interview on Wednesday be a total car crash I was hoping that Corbyn would stomp her in the rebuttal interview... but despite some strong moments he mostly just puttered on what should've been a slam dunk, especially given Brillo's obvious contempt for May.
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Mar 31, 2017 13:58
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forkboy84 posted:Clearly there is no one simple answer to homelessness or it would no longer be a problem, but it's undeniable that actually improving the availability and quality of mental health issues to an even level with physical health issues would be a good starting point, and for a myriad of other problems too. It's far too easy in austerity-plus society to go from job lost to benefits sanctioned to can't make rent to couch surfing to being trapped outside the sphere of 'normalcy', and I'd be amazed if anyone could deal with that for any period of time without developing some degree of stress-induced illness, so a good amount of homelessness related mental health issues could be dealt with simply by providing a home, a fixed address where you can sleep, store stuff safely, and receive correspondence.
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Mar 31, 2017 14:02
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