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Poll: Who Should Be Leader of HM Most Loyal Opposition? This poll is closed. |
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| Jeremy Corbyn |
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95 | 18.63% |
| Dennis Skinner |
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53 | 10.39% |
| Angus Robertson |
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20 | 3.92% |
| Tim Farron |
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9 | 1.76% |
| Paul Ukips |
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7 | 1.37% |
| Robot Lenin |
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105 | 20.59% |
| Tony Blair |
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28 | 5.49% |
| Pissflaps |
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193 | 37.84% |
| Total: | 510 votes | ||
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Benjamin Arthur posted:I don't actually consider the Liberal Democrats to be on the left at all really, I'd describe them as centre-right. The thing is New Labour are no more leftist at all and also belong to the centre-right. If you want a neoliberal party with "progressive" branding the Liberal Democrats are still the best fit. the Liberal Democrats' entire political legacy is to collaborate with the Tories to dismantle the state. There's some diamonds in the New Labour poo poo. The biggest success Lib Dems can kinda sorta claim from their time in government is gay marriage and that would have passed with the Cameron wing of the Tories + Labour and the rest of the opposition who voted for that and even that is worthless now they've put a guy who didn't vote for it and thinks the government is turning frogs gay in charge. March 31 1854, Commodore Matthew Perry and the Black Ships force Japan to open its ports for trade, ending centuries of sakoku almost 153 years to the day that Theresa May would signal the beginning of a new era of sakoku in the United Kingdom. GEORGE W BUSHI fucked around with this message at 19:57 on Mar 31, 2017 |
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Mar 31, 2017 19:52
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forkboy84 posted:Me too. But he's not going to be in charge of the country, and I'd rather almost any Labour MP in charge of the country before Theresa May. Looks like you're spot on with that one.
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Mar 31, 2017 19:58
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Benjamin Arthur posted:It's not safe to assume people who support Corbyn will vote labour but we're supposed to trust you about being "lifelong labour supporter" when you support neither the leader or the parties original ideals? You don't have any more reason to doubt that I'll vote Labour than the reverse. Please, for your own sanity, stop responding to the flaps. They are full of piss, nothing good will come of it, and honestly he is a master class troll.
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Mar 31, 2017 20:00
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OwlFancier posted:Hmm, I'd not want one that isn't committed to actually reversing their social policies, because I think without that we'll end up in this same position again a little further down the road. Yeah, I'd like that too. Well, what I'd actually like is someone who is influenced by people like Kropotkin, Rocker, Malatesta, Goldman, council communism & other varieties of left communism. But this is the world we live in. Either we accept parliamentary democracy is worthless for enacting genuine social reform because the vested interests will stop it, or we accept that by its very nature, incrementalism is...well, incremental. I lean towards the former but that view is kinda futile until more people accept the futility of the parliamentary "path" to socialism. Baron Corbyn posted:the Liberal Democrats' entire political legacy is to collaborate with the Tories to dismantle the state. There's some diamonds in the New Labour poo poo. The biggest success Lib Dems can kinda sorta claim from their time in government is gay marriage and that would have passed with the Cameron wing of the Tories + Labour and the rest of the opposition who voted for that and even that is worthless now they've put a guy who didn't vote for it and thinks the government is turning frogs gay in charge. It's also the 51st anniversary of Harold Wilson leading Labour to another electoral victory, increasing his majority in the process. Where they reformed divorce law, liberalised abortion law, decriminalised homosexuality, spent more money on education than defence for the first time in British history, dramatically increased the public housing stock, outlawed the eviction of tenants without a court order, and a whole bunch of generally good things while not actually aiming for Full Communism Now. forkboy84 fucked around with this message at 20:08 on Mar 31, 2017 |
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Mar 31, 2017 20:02
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Benjamin Arthur posted:Which ardent Corbyn supporters in this thread won't be voting Labour next election? coohoolin for one
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Mar 31, 2017 20:03
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Miftan posted:Please, for your own sanity, stop responding to the flaps. They are full of piss, nothing good will come of it, and honestly he is a master class troll. I think we're setting the bar a bit low for master class trolling but fair enough I get the point. His posts are bad and my posts encourage him to make more.
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Mar 31, 2017 20:03
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Cerv posted:coohoolin for one do Scottish nationalists like Corbyn? I thought they all got mad at him for being a unionist and not saying that Labour were wrong and bad for standing against Scottish independence.
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Mar 31, 2017 20:05
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Baron Corbyn posted:the Liberal Democrats' entire political legacy is to collaborate with the Tories to dismantle the state. There's some diamonds in the New Labour poo poo. The biggest success Lib Dems can kinda sorta claim from their time in government is gay marriage and that would have passed with the Cameron wing of the Tories + Labour and the rest of the opposition who voted for that and even that is worthless now they've put a guy who didn't vote for it and thinks the government is turning frogs gay in charge. doubt it. without the Lib Dems in government Cameron couldn't have got the bill up for a vote. the socially progressive non-nasty party wing were and still are a minority, and most of the party hated Cameron from the start
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Mar 31, 2017 20:05
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Work out which party in your area is the one likely to beat the Tories and vote for them. If you're lucky enough to be in a seat where the Tories can't win vote whoever. Party loyalty isn't worth much in our stupid FPTP system.
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Mar 31, 2017 20:05
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Baron Corbyn posted:do Scottish nationalists like Corbyn? I thought they all got mad at him for being a unionist and not saying that Labour were wrong and bad for standing against Scottish independence. he's boasted of signing up as a £3 supporter to vote for him. then gone on to vote SNP rather than Corbyn's Labour in the 2016 election
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Mar 31, 2017 20:07
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As shite as they are if you can vote for either libs or tories I would say libs are marginally better.
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Mar 31, 2017 20:07
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I came home to a letter from labour letting me know that my membership 'was in arrears' and asking me if I would like to re-instate my direct debit. This is despite them confirming, in writing, that I had resigned from the party. They keep people 'in arrears' listed as members for 6 months. I think it will be interesting to look at that figure then to see how much it drops.
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Mar 31, 2017 20:08
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OwlFancier posted:The odd dichotomy is that while I would probably appreciate it more at the moment if Corbyn was more aggressive I would probably want him to win less if he was.
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Mar 31, 2017 20:09
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Cerv posted:he's boasted of signing up as a £3 supporter to vote for him. then gone on to vote SNP rather than Corbyn's Labour in the 2016 election Generous description of "ardent Corbynista".
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Mar 31, 2017 20:09
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The PLP have been much quieter about "Corbyn bad", so the Tories have re-doubled there efforts to brand him as a bad leader, not seen since Camerons famous "For god's sakes man, resign!" at PMQs. Why do the Tories want rid of Corbyn, if he is helping them so much? They want division in Labour, and want someone leading Labour who cedes the ideas they are broadcasting, and will only really say "We'll try and be a bit slower about loving up the public services". Corbyn has not been a good leader, nor has he worked the media well. How much of this is due to Corbyn, vs how much to do with Milne, is up for question. However, every part of the country has been saying, since before he got elected as labour leader, that he can't do it. Every part. Sure feels like they don't want a truly left voice at the front of politics in the UK.
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Mar 31, 2017 20:09
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I don't think you can actually quit the party, you just stop paying and they'll wipe you off the books eventually.
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Mar 31, 2017 20:09
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OwlFancier posted:I don't think you can actually quit the party, you just stop paying and they'll wipe you off the books eventually. You definitely can. I did.
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Mar 31, 2017 20:11
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TACD posted:I dunno, Corbyn owns bones whenever he actually spits fire in a speech. That version of Corbyn is the one we need all the time. He can give good rhetoric but having had ample experience with the Tories and their "Do stuff and don't much think about it" approach, Corbyn's "Have a think about it and decide later what to do" approach is something I very much appreciate. The country won't implode if the government doesn't decide to do things for a little while, regardless of whether or not stupid people feel comforted by the image of Theresa May doing this: 
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Mar 31, 2017 20:12
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Pissflaps posted:I'm not sure about anyone else but if you're asking me then it's simple: I want Corbyn to remain leader until the general election. Now you're getting into the zeitgeist
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Mar 31, 2017 20:15
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OwlFancier posted:He can give good rhetoric but having had ample experience with the Tories and their "Do stuff and don't much think about it" approach, Corbyn's "Have a think about it and decide later what to do" approach is something I very much appreciate. The country won't implode if the government doesn't decide to do things for a little while, regardless of whether or not stupid people feel comforted by the image of Theresa May doing this: Quiet consideration and compromise are fine when you're dealing with an opponent dealing in good faith. The Tories have not dealt in good faith since 1979, and now is not the time to be looking for common ground with them. That was the Lid Dem's failure, that was the PLP's failure, and it is now Corbyn's failure too. Brexit and Tory economic policy represent an existential threat to a significant chunk of the population, and this needs to be reflected in Labour's tone.
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Mar 31, 2017 20:19
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have we left the EU yet?
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Mar 31, 2017 20:21
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I don't think Corbyn is really looking for compromise with the Tories, I think he just isn't an angry shouty reactionary bellend, which, well, is exactly what I want in a ruler, just not very conducive to becoming one.
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Mar 31, 2017 20:21
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forkboy84 posted:Yeah, I'd like that too. Well, what I'd actually like is someone who is influenced by people like Kropotkin, Rocker, Malatesta, Goldman, council communism & other varieties of left communism. But this is the world we live in. Either we accept parliamentary democracy is worthless for enacting genuine social reform because the vested interests will stop it, or we accept that by its very nature, incrementalism is...well, incremental. I lean towards the former but that view is kinda futile until more people accept the futility of the parliamentary "path" to socialism. lol if you actually think replacing Corbyn with a more right-wing leader is anything other than 'incrementalism' the wrong loving way. The right have been winning at incrementalism for decades. Electing a democratic socialist like Corbyn to lead Labour is incrementalism towards the left, and the huge outcry from the media/Tories/PLP/everyone is what you get when you take a single step towards trying to reverse years of rightward shift. I'm sorry you seem to have given up, but even you must admit that re-electing Ed Miliband so he can lose the next election less badly than Corbyn isn't a victory. Or helpful in any way really. goddamnedtwisto posted:Quiet consideration and compromise are fine when you're dealing with an opponent dealing in good faith. The Tories have not dealt in good faith since 1979, and now is not the time to be looking for common ground with them. That was the Lid Dem's failure, that was the PLP's failure, and it is now Corbyn's failure too. Brexit and Tory economic policy represent an existential threat to a significant chunk of the population, and this needs to be reflected in Labour's tone. Corbyn actually understands this about the Tories, he just isn't good at getting it across. You only have to look at his refusal to campaign with them on Brexit, or the awkward silences whenever he was forced to actually interact with David Cameron. He hates them because he knows what they represent. Miliband on the other hand had no problem having a laugh with Pigfucker because he considered politics a game. jabby fucked around with this message at 20:27 on Mar 31, 2017 |
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Mar 31, 2017 20:24
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XMNN posted:have we left the EU yet?
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Mar 31, 2017 20:25
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mehall posted:The PLP have been much quieter about "Corbyn bad", so the Tories have re-doubled there efforts to brand him as a bad leader, not seen since Camerons famous "For god's sakes man, resign!" at PMQs. Its possible thats the motivation, but it assumes that when the Tories call on him to resign, that they *actually want* him to resign, and aren't just posturing, ie: pretending that they mean, but in reality are doing it in order to further the public narrative of him being a weak/bad leader, and thus unelectable. Its possibly both these things.
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Mar 31, 2017 20:26
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forkboy84 posted:It's also the 51st anniversary of Harold Wilson leading Labour to another electoral victory, increasing his majority in the process.
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Mar 31, 2017 20:30
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jabby posted:Corbyn actually understands this about the Tories, he just isn't good at getting it across. You only have to look at his refusal to campaign with them on Brexit, or the awkward silences whenever he was forced to actually interact with David Cameron. He hates them because he knows what they represent. Miliband on the other hand had no problem having a laugh with Pigfucker because he considered politics a game. I think this also, one thing I haven't ever gotten from Corbyn is that he wants to compromise with the Tories.
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Mar 31, 2017 20:32
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jabby posted:lol if you actually think replacing Corbyn with a more right-wing leader is anything other than 'incrementalism' the wrong loving way. I think replacing Jeremy Corbyn with a leader who is less loathed by the electorate, the media, the PLP & almost everyone outside the Labour Party membership is the only way incrementalism works. Coz it works by being in power, and dragging the country left, kicking & screaming if need be. And only the most delusional loon thinks that Jeremy Corbyn will ever be Prime Minister of a country bigger than Islington. If you don't want Labour to be a party of government, then you have to ask yourself what you think the point of the Labour Party is. Is it just a protest vote party? Are you just giving up on winning general elections? What's the end goal of keeping Corbyn in place? Again, if those hundreds of thousands of Momentum members want to admit that parliamentary democracy is futile, cool. Lets get working on extra-parliamentary solutions. Otherwise, the Labour Party has to try and win general elections. If there's one thing that the Corbyn era has shown us, it's that the Labour Party cannot be changed from the top down. It will require a long-term project, working on taking control of local parties, winning over local voters, and it can all happen without Jeremy Corbyn as leader so long as people don't just give up.
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Mar 31, 2017 20:40
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Haha, all the members who have left because Corbyn is shite who you gonna vote for in the next leadership election - oh no wait, you can't!
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Mar 31, 2017 20:43
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forkboy84 posted:I think replacing Jeremy Corbyn with a leader who is less loathed by the electorate, the media, the PLP & almost everyone outside the Labour Party membership is the only way incrementalism works. Coz it works by being in power, and dragging the country left, kicking & screaming if need be. And only the most delusional loon thinks that Jeremy Corbyn will ever be Prime Minister of a country bigger than Islington. If you don't want Labour to be a party of government, then you have to ask yourself what you think the point of the Labour Party is. Is it just a protest vote party? Are you just giving up on winning general elections? What's the end goal of keeping Corbyn in place? The issue is that dragging the country kicking and screaming to the left is a substantial part of why Corbyn is so disliked by much of the establishment. So someone who isn't disliked would be someone who isn' threatening to upset the status quo.
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Mar 31, 2017 20:47
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OwlFancier posted:The issue is that dragging the country kicking and screaming to the left is a substantial part of why Corbyn is so disliked by much of the establishment. So someone who isn't disliked would be someone who isn' threatening to upset the status quo. Ordinary people don't like him either.
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Mar 31, 2017 20:55
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OwlFancier posted:The issue is that dragging the country kicking and screaming to the left is a substantial part of why Corbyn is so disliked by much of the establishment. So someone who isn't disliked would be someone who isn' threatening to upset the status quo. If he was popular with normal people, this'd not be a problem. But he's not. So...
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Mar 31, 2017 20:58
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JFairfax posted:london is full of cunts Unless I have missed something, Caroline Lucas is not the leader of the green party, its now a job share. This really calls into questi8n the integrity of the polling. Again.
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Mar 31, 2017 20:59
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forkboy84 posted:If he was popular with normal people, this'd not be a problem. But he's not. So... I think that possibly might be influenced by the fact that every part of the establishment from before he even became leader has been spending a lot of time and effort to tell everybody that he's bad. So, again it kind of comes up against the problem of "has to be popular to move us left, can't be left if wants to be popular" I don't really think there's much to dislike about him, personally.
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Mar 31, 2017 21:00
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Trickjaw posted:Unless I have missed something, Caroline Lucas is not the leader of the green party, its now a job share. This really calls into questi8n the integrity of the polling. Again. If it's a job that she's sharing then she is indeed a leader of the Green Party and your ridiculous reason for questioning the integrity of the poll vanishes into a cloud of farts.
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Mar 31, 2017 21:03
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OwlFancier posted:I think that possibly might be influenced by the fact that every part of the establishment from before he even became leader has been spending a lot of time and effort to tell everybody that he's bad. So, again it kind of comes up against the problem of "has to be popular to move us left, can't be left if wants to be popular" He has a few of the annoying biases of his generation but otherwise, sure, nor do I. But then you & I aren't exactly average members of the public. But yes, you're getting there. Parliamentary democracy is trash, throw it away, build something better outside it because the change we want will not happen through it. Bernstein was wrong, past 100 years prove that, lets move on.
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Mar 31, 2017 21:08
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what should parliamentary democracy be replaced with?
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Mar 31, 2017 21:17
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If you're arguing that parliamentary democracy is bad because it's unlikely to give us what we want, and then arguing that we need to overthrow it as a result, because that's... more likely to give us what we want? I'm not sure I follow. Like I think one of the few things less likely than Corbyn winning a general election is a socialist revolution in the UK in 2020. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 21:23 on Mar 31, 2017 |
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Mar 31, 2017 21:20
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forkboy84 posted:He has a few of the annoying biases of his generation but otherwise, sure, nor do I. But then you & I aren't exactly average members of the public. If you really believe that, and given your past posts I think you might, you have to do this poo poo yourself. Nobody is gonna do it for us. I don't know if you have time/money or if you're already actively participating, but it's important that we do. Nobody is going to help people if we don't, especially not politicians. I hope that regardless of Westminster bullshit you can help those around you, maybe spread the word while you're at it. It's important not to get discouraged by politics, despite it being a big ball of poo poo. e: OwlFancier and Chegg: Maybe just that we need to stop waiting for this 'help your fellow man' stuff to start with rich politicians and do it ourselves.
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Mar 31, 2017 21:22
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OwlFancier posted:If you're arguing that parliamentary democracy is bad because it's unlikely to give us what we want, and then arguing that we need to overthrow it as a result, because that's... more likely to give us what we want? I'm not sure I follow. In the short term you don't need to overthrow poo poo, extraparliamentary politics is about building movements, networks and organisations parallel to the parliamentary system. You don't need to think in terms of parliamentary politics or violent revolution with no points in between, if people thought like that organised labour in this country wouldn't have existed in the first place for a political party to emerge from.
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Mar 31, 2017 21:30
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