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Saint Drogo posted:More miniatures...costs more money?? There's two separate arguments happening I think. The first is if GW price per model is fair. The second is if the cost to play a "standard" game of 40k is reasonable compared to other games. Or maybe it is actually the other games that are unreasonable.
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# ? Apr 1, 2017 12:32 |
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# ? May 16, 2024 19:02 |
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Yeah, bingo. If you play a game with full companies it better be in 6-15mm and/or the same price as historicals which somehow manage to have quality miniatures for a fraction of the price most fantasy stuff does.
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# ? Apr 1, 2017 12:35 |
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Bad Decision Dino posted:I don't want to argue with that guy, he sounds like a tool. I'm not sure I have the energy to argue with someone who thinks that playing 40k at 500 points is a valid concept in this discussion
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# ? Apr 1, 2017 12:54 |
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Hey, if you guys just want to play a good game and don't have the financial power to play 40k with the big boys, just get into historicals like every cost conscious Grog throughout gaming history. Perry Brothers plastics are incredible, and frankly everyone should play Sharp Practice 2.
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# ? Apr 1, 2017 12:56 |
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Lord_Hambrose posted:Hey, if you guys just want to play a good game and don't have the financial power to play 40k with the big boys, just get into historicals like every cost conscious Grog throughout gaming history. Which sounds good until you have brits and germans and peninsular war starts looking interesting and...
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# ? Apr 1, 2017 12:59 |
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spectralent posted:What scale is the game designed (heh) around though? Like, most games will have a point scale and will also say "but bigger or smaller games are possible!", when in actuality a smaller game doesn't give you enough points for essential elements, and bigger becomes a massive grinding slog. There was a 1000 point game of FoW at the club the other day while we were inducting a newbie, and it was notable just how badly the variance holds up at that level; there were lists with two tank platoons because EW german armour just can't make a list at that points level. I started playing in 3rd edition and remember playing a lot around 1000 points. The problem is that GW has been creeping up the scale in terms of miniatures on the board and relative powerlevels of units that the underlying system strains to accomodate recommended levels of play now. I consider playing Apocalypse pure masochism. So on the rare occasion that I play 40k, I typically don't play more than 1000 points, which I normally enjoy well enough. This is all my subjective personal experience and opinions. Thirsty Dog posted:I'm not sure I have the energy to argue with someone who thinks that playing 40k at 500 points is a valid concept in this discussion So the only points level that is good and valid Warhammer 40.000 is 1800 points? Turns out I've been playing wrong for nearly 15 years! Bad Decision Dino fucked around with this message at 13:06 on Apr 1, 2017 |
# ? Apr 1, 2017 13:03 |
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Which is why an 8th edition gutting makes sense. The game is way too bloated and the mechanics can't support how people want to play. But adding more bespoke rules and mechanics from 2e isn't going to alleviate that at all.
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# ? Apr 1, 2017 13:06 |
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Can't wait until someone suggests how cool and awesome it is to lug around a full army list's worth of orcs in 40k 8e and have it be virus bombed on turn 1. Playing a game that takes several suitcases to play instead of a small pack I can take through the subway/bus to game at the LGS after work, yeah that sounds great! Might explain why the infinity/WMH/x wangs game nights at the stores around here can be scheduled for weekdays instead of just weekends for WH/40k, if that. Chill la Chill fucked around with this message at 13:12 on Apr 1, 2017 |
# ? Apr 1, 2017 13:09 |
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Chill la Chill posted:Can't wait until someone suggests how cool and awesome it is to lug around a full army list's worth of orcs in 40k 8e and have it be virus bombed on turn 1. I cannot wait to forge this exciting narrative.
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# ? Apr 1, 2017 13:11 |
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At least then you could get multiple games in in an evening!
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# ? Apr 1, 2017 13:13 |
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Provided your opponent doesn't just walk out in disgust.
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# ? Apr 1, 2017 13:17 |
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Bad Decision Dino posted:I cannot wait to forge this exciting narrative. Gorkamorka?
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# ? Apr 1, 2017 13:25 |
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I don't think Gorkamorka had virus bombs or vortex grenades.
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# ? Apr 1, 2017 13:29 |
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500 point 40k is pretty bad yeah. I mean you're welcome to play whatever game you like at whatever scale you enjoy but it's a game system that does not lend itself well to that size, which is ironic given that it's not far off the model count from back when I first played 40k. Like you can play WMH with just the battle group and there's rules and scenarios and official support and everything, but no-one pretends that's how the game is designed
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# ? Apr 1, 2017 13:40 |
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Atlas Hugged posted:At least then you could get multiple games in in an evening! So, arrives at LGS at 1800-30 after work: ahhh, to play my favorite game! 1930 done setting up 2000 well, guess that game's done, fancy another go? *sweats, the LGS closes between 21-2130* Like, I make the time comparison a lot here but I've seen tons of games played side by side while at an x-wing or magic tournament of some sort. The times are strict, there's no guessing how long the setup and teardown takes. More minis of course means more setup and playtime, but the question was always how many decisions/hour do you take? From friends who play multiple tabletop games including 40k and go to adepticon, nova open, etc for 40k games, it's not enough. They're honest about that but love 40k anyway. I personally don't have the time for it and painting a few pieces to a better standard is much more enjoyable than painting a whole company to 3-color standard. Meanwhile, painting these old DKOK and forgeworld tau suits for other games seems to be what GW wants anyway. Free advertising for their models and nobody to take up space for their 1-man shops with 2 tables and weird hours. In which case feel free to change those hours to a suitably weird one, with maybe some time in between so the guy can eat dinner and/or take a bathroom break. E: playing PanO with a mix of DKOK space WW1 dudes with sleek tau robots and the infinity buttes and boobs looks pretty funny on the table. Chill la Chill fucked around with this message at 13:46 on Apr 1, 2017 |
# ? Apr 1, 2017 13:43 |
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Atlas Hugged posted:I don't think Gorkamorka had virus bombs or vortex grenades. Well maybe not, but as an Ork player why would you ever want to play a different game?
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# ? Apr 1, 2017 13:47 |
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No idea. It's a great game.
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# ? Apr 1, 2017 13:49 |
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Orcs are pretty drat good in forbidden Stars.
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# ? Apr 1, 2017 13:50 |
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Thirsty Dog posted:Like you can play WMH with just the battle group and there's rules and scenarios and official support and everything, but no-one pretends that's how the game is designed I mean I'm kind of half-joking when I say "designed" in scare quotes because 40k isn't really well designed at all, so, I guess it's entirely possible janky balancing and pacing isn't really noticeable compared to what was already the default.
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# ? Apr 1, 2017 13:56 |
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Chill la Chill posted:Orcs are pretty drat good in forbidden Stars. I think you'll find that's Orks, buddy. Forbidden Stars is great and I'm legit sad the proposed expansion will never see the light of day
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# ? Apr 1, 2017 14:30 |
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On a related tangent, more games companies should acknowledge that not everyone can easily fit a 4x4 / 6x4 gaming area into their house/apartment. I'm super happy that Guild Ball is 3'x3', PP have paid lip service to the idea with their Rumble format on 30"x30", and Malifaux is 3'x3'. Elsewhere we're reliant on fan mods. People have done Infinity: Recon designed for the £7 terrain sets which include a 24"x34" playmat. Minigeddon is Epic: Armageddon is 90cm x 120cm. Obviously for my purposes it works best if the game is designed for smaller player areas - i.e. Guild Ball & Malifaux - but while I don't expect PP to do anything more than they already have done, it would be nice if more/new games developers understood that giant tables are not an easy thing to come by and not required for a tactical skirmish game.
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# ? Apr 1, 2017 14:42 |
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Thirsty Dog posted:Forbidden Stars is great and I'm legit sad the proposed expansion will never see the light of day What happened to it?
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# ? Apr 1, 2017 14:55 |
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I'm glad that X-wing is 3x3 only because while it's slightly larger than those ubiquitous white folding tables you see at all game stores, the nicer game stores will have the better tables which are at least 3 feet wide. Sad part is that unless you keep an MDF/eucaboard table topper at a store that specifically doesn't cater to x-wing/guild ball, you won't be able to play after work/school that easily. I do agree that for most minis games, the extra foot doesn't really add much and just requires an extra bit of scenery. X-wing had the 3x3 designed in mind with its maneuver templates and engagement possibilities, so it's not really possible to downsize it. But, for infinity and frost grave, you are almost always using the first turn to maneuver into the spots you would've started at with a smaller board anyway! The only thing it really changes is infiltration distances which is much easier to change than maneuver templates. Thirsty Dog posted:I think you'll find that's Orks, buddy. Yeah, sad. And I don't expect we'll see them reskin it for Star Wars because "Rebellion" is supposed to be that game.
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# ? Apr 1, 2017 14:56 |
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spectralent posted:What happened to it? GW Brexited FFG
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# ? Apr 1, 2017 14:59 |
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Lord_Hambrose posted:Hey, if you guys just want to play a good game and don't have the financial power to play 40k with the big boys, just get into historicals like every cost conscious Grog throughout gaming history. Your not a real grog until you make a post complaining about a box of plastic mans with 30 beautiful 28mm dudes (enough for your whole force) costs $40 when back in 1996 you could buy a box of 40 metal ones that looked like errect turds for $35.
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# ? Apr 1, 2017 15:06 |
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Ah for some reason I thought forbidden stars was the osprey one
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# ? Apr 1, 2017 15:06 |
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spectralent posted:Ah for some reason I thought forbidden stars was the osprey one Horizon Wars.
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# ? Apr 1, 2017 15:08 |
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spectralent posted:Ah for some reason I thought forbidden stars was the osprey one That's Rogue Stars
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# ? Apr 1, 2017 15:19 |
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I was thinking of rogue stars but I like that osprey has enough good games it's multiple choice.
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# ? Apr 1, 2017 15:21 |
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Numlock posted:Your not a real grog until you make a post complaining about a box of plastic mans with 30 beautiful 28mm dudes (enough for your whole force) costs $40 when back in 1996 you could buy a box of 40 metal ones that looked like errect turds for $35. I welcome the inevitable slide into Napoleonics that happens as a gamer gains maturity.
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# ? Apr 1, 2017 16:04 |
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Chill la Chill posted:Can't wait until someone suggests how cool and awesome it is to lug around a full army list's worth of orcs in 40k 8e and have it be virus bombed on turn 1. As someone who did this in fantasy (playing dwarfs and having an IF'd purple sun wipe out a third of my army in one turn), it is NOT very fun
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# ? Apr 1, 2017 16:07 |
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Thirsty Dog posted:Forbidden Stars is great and I'm legit sad the proposed expansion will never see the light of day Forbidden Stars is ok, but I found combat to be way too long and tedious. I guess in that sense it accurately replicates the 40k experience, so maybe that's what they were going for.
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# ? Apr 1, 2017 18:23 |
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Chill la Chill posted:Can't wait until someone suggests how cool and awesome it is to lug around a full army list's worth of orcs in 40k 8e and have it be virus bombed on turn 1. Kinda why Shadow War interests me. I have zero interest in getting back into a full 40k armies, especially since I like Orks. But for 10-15 models and a game format that'll take 1-2 hours instead of all day? Sure, I'm interested and probably already have the models around here somewhere from back in the day. But I'd rather be playing Gorkamorka. Liquid Communism fucked around with this message at 18:33 on Apr 1, 2017 |
# ? Apr 1, 2017 18:30 |
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Here's where I suggest buying Calth or Prospero as a reasonable point of entry into GW-land, or buying an old army on eBay:tallkidwithglasses posted:Real talk, heroic scale mini games actually all cost about the same. Calth/Prospero runs ~125ish and can reasonably be about 1000 points of GW mans, the warmahordes intro boxes are $40 for a 0 point battlegroup but the non boardgame plastic models are actually a little more expensive than GW, so getting up to a 75 point tournament list is probably $150 if you go for cheap and not optimal (and you need 2 lists for a tournament), and infinity and malifaux are pretty similar. Here is where a very good forums poster moves the goalposts and prices out everything individually in order to make some kind of point I guess: Thirsty Dog posted:Like, I haven't played 40k in a long time, but even I'm aware that <£100 doesn't buy you much of an army. For a fun experiment I thought I'd put together an army that would've been lots of points way back in the day and tot it up using an online army builder (Epic Roster) Here is where another poster points out Calth is an option: Bad Decision Dino posted:If you bought the Start Collecting! Space Marines or Betrayal at Calth you could get a pretty decent Space Marines army for a lower price. These would be perfectly viable options for games of Kill Team and Combat Patrol, which is were the game is best for new players anyway. Here is where Very Good Poster screeches autistically without knowing how much of an army you can actually build in Calth (hint, if you're playing Horus Heresy it can be a 1500 point force if you give out lots of upgrades, and it's definitely over 1000 points if you're more conservative. Way bigger than combat patrol/victory is vengeance/shadow war). Ironically this is also where our friend accuses the thread of moving the goalposts. Thirsty Dog posted:Betrayal at Calth is £95 for Thirsty Dog posted:Argue with the guy who choose to use "you need two lists for tournaments" as an argument against WMH, then. You do need two lists for a WMH tournament. Unlike GW, where most of the games are casual and at whatever point level the opponents agree to, WMH in my area is pretty much entirely steamroller tournaments, and you're at a huge disadvantage if you only have one list, or two lists that can be easily countered by the same strategy. Kill team is supported. It's a small part of the larger GW offering but because there are orders of magnitude more GW games players in most areas than other games, it's still pretty easy to find an opponent. Shadow war just dropped and it sold out in like an hour, lots of people will be playing squad/platoon scale 40k these days. This thread is bad. Maybe people should read posts instead of punching the big ol GW fan strawman.
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# ? Apr 1, 2017 18:59 |
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It's really weird watching a game of 40k on the tabletop after I spent an afternoon playing Dawn of War 2. The game is fast paced and is pretty small in scale, meanwhile the tabletop game is slow, huge, and boring. I feel like DoW 2 is closer to what the tabletop game should be.
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# ? Apr 1, 2017 19:17 |
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Or you could play Dark Age and get 900 points of guys (450 for each side; friendly games are usually 500 and tournaments are 750 with an optional 150 point sideboard) for $70. Also all the rules are completely free, so that's another point in its favor if you're looking to save a few bucks. It's true that the Dark Age starter is board game plastic, but most of the models in the set are fairly bulky so it shouldn't be too much of an issue. They're also snap-fit and can go together without glue to get you into your first game faster. Still, money's not my main issue with how 40k is set up; it's that I simply don't want to paint 20+ of the same guys at minimum to have a viable army; doubly so given the amount of assembly it takes to build, say, a box of Space Marines who all come out looking basically the same anyway. With Dark Age and other skirmish games, you generally only have 3 or so models of a given type, and they often have more variety in the figures themselves.
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# ? Apr 1, 2017 19:35 |
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Doesn't Calth/Prospero only help if you want to play Space Marines though? Malifauxs £30 starters are pretty decent, expect for one which is bafflingly poo poo to start with. PrinnySquadron fucked around with this message at 19:44 on Apr 1, 2017 |
# ? Apr 1, 2017 19:41 |
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tallkidwithglasses posted:Here's where I suggest buying Calth or Prospero as a reasonable point of entry into GW-land, or buying an old army on eBay: Here, let me help you - the reply to your post was actually this one Thirsty Dog posted:Real talk, 40k tournament size is 1850 at the lowest usually, and the equivalent 300pts of Infinity tends to be either 10 man or a little bit over. I can buy a 300 point tournament-legal army - where 300 points are the mainstay and not some "well, you can play 150 or 200 to get a feel for the game" style thing - for £72. quote:Here is where another poster points out Calth is an option: By "if you're playing Horus Heresy", do you mean "if you're not playing 40k?" I'm happy to admit I have no idea about the relative costs for 30k. Which is why I haven't mentioned it, and why this argument hasn't mentioned it. That, ironically, would be shifting the goalposts. Much like how only tournament-standard army lists - or two, if it suits your argument - count for GW's competitors, but 40k can be played at any scale and any point value as long as that value is enough to win the argument. quote:Kill team is supported. It's a small part of the larger GW offering but because there are orders of magnitude more GW games players in most areas than other games, it's still pretty easy to find an opponent. Shadow war just dropped and it sold out in like an hour, lots of people will be playing squad/platoon scale 40k these days. I didn't say it _wasn't_ supported, but Kill Team is literally a 40k mode that removes most of the stuff you can use in 40k. As comparisons go, it's a really poo poo one. quote:This thread is bad. Maybe people should read posts instead of punching the big ol GW fan strawman. But hey, Mr "I quoted someone 10 times in a row, counted their words, quoted someone else 34 times, and counted their words", feel free to accuse other people of autistic screeching I guess. Go you.
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# ? Apr 1, 2017 19:52 |
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the whole GW defenders thing is legit reminding me of the deterioration of a friend's marriage over the past year or so, where every so often they'd tell me about how they'd come to a new understanding over the most recent blowup, things weren't great but they were getting better, just look at [token gestures of improvement or short periods when things weren't so bad]
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# ? Apr 1, 2017 19:59 |
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# ? May 16, 2024 19:02 |
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No one cares
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# ? Apr 1, 2017 20:02 |