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Basically the point is gw cannot fail it can only be failed. People invested can forgive a lot when they look at an army they've had for years an think "be a shame to just toss it all". The idea of play something else scares them back into their GW tm skullz holz.
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May 4, 2017 01:14
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Said the person in the thread that is scared of allowing that GW might not be the objective epitome of evil.
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May 4, 2017 01:18
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When did I say it was evil?
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May 4, 2017 01:21
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BULBASAUR posted:into my rear lines You can't save against my D weapon
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May 4, 2017 01:20
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Lovely Joe Stalin posted:Quite apart from rules, FFG's business model is somehow worse than GW anyway. QFT I love the FFG games and the rules they build for them and hate the way they package them and release new products
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May 4, 2017 01:23
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NTRabbit posted:Mantic got some of them, but many are so mentally invested in the idea that there is only GW and nothing else exists, that they now play nothing, or "9th Age" as a fan based continuation, being so used to relying on 3rd party FAQs, house rules, and fan army books just to make the game functional that doing so seems normal. People argue the same about DnD, and yet Pathfinder managed to snap up like every grog upset with 4th.
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May 4, 2017 01:27
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The Bee posted:get more market share https://icv2.com/articles/markets/view/36971/top-5-non-collectible-miniature-games-fall-2016 Age of Sigmar is still the 4th biggest game, and only X-Wing and Warmachine are owned by another company. Even as bad as Age of Sigmar is, even games I think are great like Infinity and KoW can't beat it. Most gaming companies are insects to GW.
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May 4, 2017 01:31
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Huh, interesting figures! Although I think counting Warmahordes as two identities is a bit of a misnomer. Is there a numbered list so I can see if Warnahordes net beats out 40k too?
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May 4, 2017 01:34
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The Bee posted:Huh, interesting figures! Although I think counting Warmahordes as two identities is a bit of a misnomer. Is there a numbered list so I can see if Warnahordes net beats out 40k too? I am pretty sure they would be bigger than AoS for sure. Before X-Wing Warmachine was always #2, but I doubt it and hordes together are bigger than 40k. I have been outside of that industry for a while so it may have changed.
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May 4, 2017 01:39
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Lord_Hambrose posted:I am pretty sure they would be bigger than AoS for sure. Before X-Wing Warmachine was always #2, but I doubt it and hordes together are bigger than 40k. I have been outside of that industry for a while so it may have changed. Yeah, my original post was silly since I forgot Warmachine was already above AoS. I imagine they're still below 40k cumulatively too, especially since GW being passed by a more direct competitor would be big news, but that just leaves me more curious as to how big a sales difference there is between 40k and AoS. Heck, also between Warmachine and Hordes. I always took them as being in relative parity, so seeing them 2 places apart was surprising. Although apparently the market shifted a lot since Spring. Wow.
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May 4, 2017 01:47
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Wow. That is pretty surprising! Star Wars gonna Star Wars though. The Star Trek X-Wing is a real shocker though. No one ever played that locally, and at least Armada did pretty well except for pricing all the X-Wing players out. FFG have a brutal business model. I just couldn't handle X-Wing after they made all the ships I actually wanted. gently caress buying a big dumb ship for one card.
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May 4, 2017 01:54
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You actually inspired me to dig back as far as I could find, and the results are certainly something. Fall 2015: Much the same as spring 2016. Spring 2015: Before X-Wing won #1, and Hordes scrapes in at #5 over Star Trek. Fall 2014: DnD Attack Wing actually gets a ton of traction, as does Star Trek. Fall 2013: DnD Attack Wing not here, Hordes is back. So from what I can tell, the Attack Wing line was surprisingly successful, Hordes is sort of the perennial member of the #5 spot between other trends, and neither Fantasy nor AoS has broken top 5 in the last 3 years until now. And then with 2012 we come full circle. Poetic, really. Shoutout to Mailfaux for actually making #5 in the first of these lists! Only time a non-licensed game hung with the big names. The Bee fucked around with this message at 02:05 on May 4, 2017 |
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May 4, 2017 02:02
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TKIY posted:Mantic and FFG had a golden chance to snap up fantasy players and failed Mantic's kickstarters and release of Kings of War II and its subsequent supplements were wildly successful, far beyond the company's ability to even cope with the expansion of their production. To the extent Mantic failed, it was an inability to grow fast enough and deliver enough product. But I think failure to capture the entirety of GW's market share of the fantasy tabletop wargaming market does not constitute "failure" by Mantic: they went from essentially zero market share to multiple millions of pounds annually of market share, and that's a huge win for the company. FFG was contractually forbidden from making games to compete with GW's tabletop miniatures wargames. They kind of started to sort of do it anyway, and eventually lost (or gave up, it's not clear) their GW license. They're now coming out with a fantasy competitor, but it's way too early to tell if it is or will be successful. Regardless, they did not have that "golden chance" while they still maintained GW's licensing terms. Lord_Hambrose posted:https://icv2.com/articles/markets/view/36971/top-5-non-collectible-miniature-games-fall-2016 quote:This chart of the Top 5 Non-Collectible Miniature Lines (hobby channel) reflects sales in Fall 2016. The charts are based on interviews with retailers, distributors, and manufacturers. This is survey data, and it's especially suspect given the manufacturers in question have never shown a willingness to release accurate sales data of individual product lines to the public; and GW is its own distributor. That doesn't mean the data is worthless, but it's not exactly verifiable. Another issue with it is how GW and Privateer Press account for sales of their models. At least some proportion of fantasy and science fiction minis sold by both companies are sold not as game pieces but as models for pure modelers who do not play the games. Both GW and PP presumably ignore this distinction, probably because they have no way of judging it either. Whereas almost nobody is buying X-Wing ships purely to repaint them with no intention of playing X-Wing.
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May 4, 2017 02:06
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JBP posted:You can't save against my D weapon you hit my rear armour, now roll on the penetration table
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May 4, 2017 02:16
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Nice catch. Explains why I couldn't find any solid numbers about it. That's a shame, too, because I was getting really interested in seeing where these graphs were going. I'm going to say that no, Mantic didn't fail, but at the same time they definitely didn't gobble up as much market share as they possibly could have. That's totally fair, though, being a smaller company with less intensive production. So everyone's points hold water here, I'd say. The idea of a 40k or Warhammer killer is like the idea of a WoW killer, imo. Very unlikely unless it kills itself. The Bee fucked around with this message at 02:23 on May 4, 2017 |
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May 4, 2017 02:17
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ICv2 was always bad and I remember some talk about their methodology in one of the old grognards.txt threads. They're all surveys and zealous LGSs that have agendas to push like the early pathfinder days.
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May 4, 2017 02:28
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BULBASAUR posted:you hit my rear armour, now roll on the penetration table I ROLL EXACTLY AVERAGE
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May 4, 2017 02:35
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TKIY posted:I ROLL EXACTLY AVERAGE Failing to penetrate happens to everyone from time to time.
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May 4, 2017 02:42
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Ashcans posted:The way it works is that during the charge phase, you select your target and charge 2d6" toward them, and if you get within 1" then you are in melee and participate in the fight phase. During the Fight phase, any unit that just charged gets to activate, and after the chargers players alternate selecting a unit in combat to activate until they have all fought. At the start of the activation, models in the unit get a 3" consolidation move towards the closest enemy before the actual fighting, and if this brings you within 1" of another model you can fight that as well. Thanks for the break down! The one thing I think you have mistaken though is that in theory everything should be able to hurt everything else in Newhammer 40K. I remember it being said that S and T were remaining as stats but they were reworking how they interacted and that anything would be able to hurt anything else on the table. So worse case scenario - those orks or guardians tie up the dreadnaught with their rifle butts long enough for you to get into a better position to blast the poo poo out of it with your D (mortal damage weapons). I appreciate that they are removing some of the cruft that really slowed the game down. I also remember that the magic phase is basically just another shooting/buffing phase and that most spells do mortal damage. So that's a surprisingly nice change for sure; getting rid of some of the randomness of spell selection will be a boon I think. I think they're going to achieve their goal of speeding up play, which bodes well for people playing 41K. Icon Of Sin posted:Failing to penetrate happens to everyone from time to time. It's not my fault, the dice tray was too big.
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May 4, 2017 02:51
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Icon Of Sin posted:Failing to penetrate happens to everyone from time to time. I was in the motor pool! There was shrinkage!
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May 4, 2017 03:16
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I think the biggest thing Mantic did wrong was rely to heavily on Kickstarter. At my FLGS all the people who would even consider trying out an Unknown Game from a company that made GW knock offs minis backed the Kickstarter because of sweet savings. So obviously the store doesn't carry any because the player base has what they need, and is willing to buy online to cut out local small business. So no games are played in the store, and no interest is generated. So the game just fades away.
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May 4, 2017 03:38
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Lord_Hambrose posted:https://icv2.com/articles/markets/view/36971/top-5-non-collectible-miniature-games-fall-2016 Chill la Chill posted:ICv2 was always bad and I remember some talk about their methodology in one of the old grognards.txt threads. They're all surveys and zealous LGSs that have agendas to push like the early pathfinder days. Terrible Opinions fucked around with this message at 03:58 on May 4, 2017 |
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May 4, 2017 03:52
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Terrible Opinions posted:If you take ICV2 as representative, which has already been pointed out to be flawed but not necessarily completely unworkable, you actually come to a different realization. In both war games and table top rpgs an even moderately well designed official starwars game will crush literally any other game on the market, bar sometimes mainline D&D. Which kinda puts GW as just being a moderately sized fish in a very tiny pond, given that a licensed product consistently outperforms it. To be fair, "a licensed product consistently outperforms it" also applies to Star Wars movies routinely dominating the box office and the Star Wars comic line outperforming 98% of Marvel's actual comic output. I think Star Wars is just that much of a juggernaut, and original material without that eyecatch value has a major uphill battle to fight. That said, you're right that tabletop wargaming is a niche within a niche, and if more massive businesses actually made a targeted effort of going into that tiny pond Games Workshop would really feel the burn. You can kind of see that with Armada knocking Warmachine out of 3rd place and Attack Wing routinely bullying Hordes off the top 5.
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May 4, 2017 04:04
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Lord_Hambrose posted:I think the biggest thing Mantic did wrong was rely to heavily on Kickstarter. At my FLGS all the people who would even consider trying out an Unknown Game from a company that made GW knock offs minis backed the Kickstarter because of sweet savings. So obviously the store doesn't carry any because the player base has what they need, and is willing to buy online to cut out local small business. Catch 22; without Kickstarter Kings of War as it is now doesn't exist, and remains a booklet game with mostly metal minis for half the armies at best, but without the large savings and stretch goal freebies enough gamers won't throw enough money at it to make it happen.
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May 4, 2017 04:12
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NTRabbit posted:Catch 22; without Kickstarter Kings of War as it is now doesn't exist, and remains a booklet game with mostly metal minis for half the armies at best, but without the large savings and stretch goal freebies enough gamers won't throw enough money at it to make it happen. Oh absolutely. I actually really like what Mantic is doing, and I certainly don't blame them for going back to the well to take all risk out of their business. It is just that no store in their right mind would carry the product line. It is not nearly as bad as the Kickstarted board game craze. I wish my local store carried the Mantic Necromunda terrain. That stuff is ace.
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May 4, 2017 05:29
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Agreed. A big part of the problem is that Kickstarter's gone from a development platform to a glorified pre-order, and when you spend a ton of your incoming profits on the development stage you really don't end up with much after the fact. And that's before we get into stuff like stretch goals.
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May 4, 2017 05:37
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TKIY posted:I ROLL EXACTLY AVERAGE The average is 5.5? I thought it was 4. This is very unsettling.
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May 4, 2017 05:53
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Lord_Hambrose posted:Oh absolutely. I actually really like what Mantic is doing, and I certainly don't blame them for going back to the well to take all risk out of their business. It is just that no store in their right mind would carry the product line. Mantic are attempting to mend bridges with retailers, and have made an effort to dial back so that it's not possible to get absolutely everything in the KS - I didn't back it, but I understand the Walking Dead game has a whole host of expansions for retail that were never in the KS, similar model to FFGs Star Wars: Imperial Assault. Still hard going though. Getting the Battlezones into stores seems like the easiest challenge though, since you can use it for just about any scifi game.
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May 4, 2017 05:54
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My friends and I have regularly been playing Kings of War at our FLGS for over a year now. There aren't very many of us, but we generate enough interest to get people to regularly try the game and make orders through the store. But he won't keep it in regular stock. We're fighting a massive uphill battle though because we're in Thailand and most foreigners aren't willing to commit to a game that requires that many models since most of them are only in the region for a few years at most and the locals are very much into "spending money on the flavor of the week". Everyone played Frostgrave for a week. Everyone played Bolt Action for 2! But it's hard to keep momentum going. The shop is happy to keep Deadzone stuff in stock though because it doesn't take much shelf space and people play it regularly enough.
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May 4, 2017 06:20
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Atlas Hugged posted:My friends and I have regularly been playing Kings of War at our FLGS for over a year now. There aren't very many of us, but we generate enough interest to get people to regularly try the game and make orders through the store. But he won't keep it in regular stock. We're fighting a massive uphill battle though because we're in Thailand and most foreigners aren't willing to commit to a game that requires that many models since most of them are only in the region for a few years at most and the locals are very much into "spending money on the flavor of the week". Everyone played Frostgrave for a week. Everyone played Bolt Action for 2! But it's hard to keep momentum going. The shop is happy to keep Deadzone stuff in stock though because it doesn't take much shelf space and people play it regularly enough. What is the most consistently popular game in your area? RE: Mantic and retailers I saw the rulebook for Kings of War in one of the local stores here, but other than that I haven't noticed any of their merchandise. To be fair, I haven't gone to a game store in a while just due to life getting busier and having enough Infinity models in my painting queue to keep me set for a while to come. It's a game that I want to get in to because I love fantasy settings and when I played it, it went quick and I had a blast.
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May 4, 2017 15:12
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Sir Teabag posted:What is the most consistently popular game in your area? Game of Thrones LCG
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May 4, 2017 16:09
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Looked over the free Warpath rules. Looks solid, if bland. Does anyone have the proper book? What armies are in it?
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May 4, 2017 22:06
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Springfield Fatts posted:Looked over the free Warpath rules. Looks solid, if bland. Does anyone have the proper book? What armies are in it? Enforcers, GCPS, Marauders, Asterians, Forge Fathers, Veer-myn and the Plague.
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May 5, 2017 00:04
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Atlas Hugged posted:My friends and I have regularly been playing Kings of War at our FLGS for over a year now. There aren't very many of us, but we generate enough interest to get people to regularly try the game and make orders through the store. But he won't keep it in regular stock. We're fighting a massive uphill battle though because we're in Thailand and most foreigners aren't willing to commit to a game that requires that many models since most of them are only in the region for a few years at most and the locals are very much into "spending money on the flavor of the week". Everyone played Frostgrave for a week. Everyone played Bolt Action for 2! But it's hard to keep momentum going. The shop is happy to keep Deadzone stuff in stock though because it doesn't take much shelf space and people play it regularly enough. The big problem with minis wargames for brick and mortar is they have tons of SKUs and few of them move very reliably, it's a recipe for dead inventory. My solution for most games is stocking the starter boxes and core rules and having the rest available on special order, but of course the down-side there is that immediate gratification is one of the things that helps you make up for being unable to compete on price with the Internet. It's kind of a mess and definitely hurts retail presence, especially for smaller games.
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May 5, 2017 05:01
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That's one of the main reasons Dark Age is moving from blister packs (lots of SKUs) to unit boxes (much fewer SKUs). It's a little less convenient if you only want a particular model, but it should make stocking it a lot easier.
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May 5, 2017 05:07
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Soooo... GW is good and cool, eh?
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May 5, 2017 18:47
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Nah
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May 5, 2017 19:31
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It is my well researched, and unbiased opinion that GW, and everything it touches, are objectively BAD.
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May 5, 2017 19:36
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TKIY posted:Soooo... 
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May 5, 2017 19:51
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They're releasing a grimdark train set.
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May 5, 2017 19:54
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