Star Citizen: Death of a Space Thread?

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phosdex: Dec 16, 2005

IncredibleIgloo posted:

I am at Paradox Convention and both Paradox and Frontier are using Star Citizen as a joke.

Is paradox showing off any more of the game they announced yesterday?

# ? May 13, 2017 14:48

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# ? May 16, 2024 14:17

Virtual Captain: Feb 20, 2017; Archive Priest of the Stimperial Order

Star Citizen Good, in all things forevermore. Amen.

Greenscren on AtV. Production team needs some micromanaging Chris. Make those pixels clear, not green.

# ? May 13, 2017 14:53

RubberJohnny: Apr 22, 2008

Virtual Captain posted:

Greenscren on AtV. Production team needs some micromanaging Chris. Make those pixels clear, not green.

holy poo poo lol

# ? May 13, 2017 14:53

IncredibleIgloo: Feb 17, 2011

During Q&A session an audience member asked "How do you know when to stop adding features or making promises? How do you prevent from getting in a situation like Star Citizen"

Johan and one of the folks from Frontier both responded at the same time with "Have a game first" they then followed up with a more detailed answer.

Same devs said never outsource main code and development of the game, but outsourcing art is just fine. Also said they don't do crunch either. Basically they are 180 of CIG.

# ? May 13, 2017 14:54

Chalks: Sep 30, 2009

Virtual Captain posted:

Greenscren on AtV. Production team needs some micromanaging Chris. Make those pixels clear, not green.

What the gently caress are they implementing the green screen manually with the photoshop fill tool frame by frame??

# ? May 13, 2017 14:56

IncredibleIgloo: Feb 17, 2011

phosdex posted:

Is paradox showing off any more of the game they announced yesterday?

They are showing off: Prison Architect mobile, Steel Division, EU4 newest content pack, and we saw a sizzle real for a Mars colony building game. Also showing off cities skylines on Xbox1. Also showed a bit of Battletech, and the creator of Battletech is here. There may be a game I am forgetting... Jon Shafer just hired on with them and is working on a secret project.

# ? May 13, 2017 14:58

TrustmeImLegit: Jan 14, 2017; by FactsAreUseless

Hey Goon Programmer guy who got super mad at bugsmashers and wrote a bunch of bullet points.

CIG is callin you out

quote:

Heyo, I work with Mark as a gameplay programmer in the LA studio and I thought I'd add some thoughts to the conversation, partly as a response to some of the comments on the code, but also to save some honor for Mark here. First off, none of the code shown in the video is Mark's, it's another programmer on our team named John Pritchett who has a very strong background in physics and mathematics. His code doesn't always look like the code the others on the team would write, but he's an experienced programmer with a skillset that is absolutely singular across the studio. Without John we wouldn't have the amazing physics behind the ships in the game. I remember when Mark found the bug we had a good laugh about it. It's not uncommon to find uninitalized variables in physics code, and a lot of the time they're actually there on purpose. Often time physics and engine code do some counter-intuitive patterns for the sake of speed, and sometimes their code employs a stylistic approach that isn't always my choice. Mark's code is very clean and we try to keep our code as nice as possible across the studio. That said the realities of a large project with consistent deadlines takes it's toll, so sometimes hacks get in, and more often than we would like those hacks stay around for a lot longer than want. I've done some terrible things in code the week before a demo, but we try to keep as much of that stuff as no-merge in the demo branch with the proper long term solution in the works in mainline.
Also I don't take offense to the tone of the comments. Often times programmers can get excited about coding style and patterns, and I myself have a lot of strong opinions that on any given day might sound similar. A lot of what he pointed out was true, although not always with a full understanding of the context. For instance, yes there's lua errors. What he doesn''t know is that we're actively ripping out Lua from the game. Every day we delete more Lua code, eventually it will be completely gone, replaced by item 2.0. So yeah, good stuff, thanks for sharing!

https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/6au9ai/showed_a_programmer_friend_of_mine_a_couple/

He admits they rush and 'hack' in code. Completely demolishing all the rude reddit citizens in that thread.

Also maybe there is a SECRET DEV BUILD?!??!?!?

TrustmeImLegit fucked around with this message at 15:09 on May 13, 2017

# ? May 13, 2017 14:59

AbstractNapper: Jun 5, 2011; I can help

EightAce posted:

What's wrong with having Susan Sarandon in the game ?

Thank you. That's who that thing reminded me. Although, still terribly modeled after.

# ? May 13, 2017 15:01

redwalrus: Jul 27, 2013

Virtual Captain posted:

Greenscren on AtV. Production team needs some micromanaging Chris. Make those pixels clear, not green.

They green-screen / photoshop their developers working? HAHAHAHAHAHA.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7AvHBxUDEyY

redwalrus fucked around with this message at 15:06 on May 13, 2017

# ? May 13, 2017 15:01

AbstractNapper: Jun 5, 2011; I can help

AP posted:

https://twitter.com/WilliamMesilane/status/863339873356337153

Somebody call him a moron then.

# ? May 13, 2017 15:08

TrustmeImLegit: Jan 14, 2017; by FactsAreUseless

Everyone needs to scroll back up a few posts and read the bolded part of that CIG guys post.

Holy gently caress

# ? May 13, 2017 15:08

AbstractNapper: Jun 5, 2011; I can help

Virtual Captain posted:

Greenscren on AtV. Production team needs some micromanaging Chris. Make those pixels clear, not green.

lol

300 employees.(1)(2)(3)

(1). up to 300,
(2). over the span of 6 years
(3). Half of them were greenscreened into photos and videos, and don't really exist or work for us.

# ? May 13, 2017 15:11

TrustmeImLegit: Jan 14, 2017; by FactsAreUseless

I'm willing to believe thats B roll of F42 but lol at feeling the need to do that.

# ? May 13, 2017 15:12

D_Smart: May 11, 2010; by FactsAreUseless; College Slice

TrustmeImLegit posted:

Hey Goon Programmer guy who got super mad at bugsmashers and wrote a bunch of bullet points.

CIG is callin you out

quote:
quote:
Heyo, I work with Mark as a gameplay programmer in the LA studio and I thought I'd add some thoughts to the conversation, partly as a response to some of the comments on the code, but also to save some honor for Mark here. First off, none of the code shown in the video is Mark's, it's another programmer on our team named John Pritchett who has a very strong background in physics and mathematics. His code doesn't always look like the code the others on the team would write, but he's an experienced programmer with a skillset that is absolutely singular across the studio. Without John we wouldn't have the amazing physics behind the ships in the game. I remember when Mark found the bug we had a good laugh about it. It's not uncommon to find uninitalized variables in physics code, and a lot of the time they're actually there on purpose. Often time physics and engine code do some counter-intuitive patterns for the sake of speed, and sometimes their code employs a stylistic approach that isn't always my choice. Mark's code is very clean and we try to keep our code as nice as possible across the studio. That said the realities of a large project with consistent deadlines takes it's toll, so sometimes hacks get in, and more often than we would like those hacks stay around for a lot longer than want. I've done some terrible things in code the week before a demo, but we try to keep as much of that stuff as no-merge in the demo branch with the proper long term solution in the works in mainline.
Also I don't take offense to the tone of the comments. Often times programmers can get excited about coding style and patterns, and I myself have a lot of strong opinions that on any given day might sound similar. A lot of what he pointed out was true, although not always with a full understanding of the context. For instance, yes there's lua errors. What he doesn''t know is that we're actively ripping out Lua from the game. Every day we delete more Lua code, eventually it will be completely gone, replaced by item 2.0. So yeah, good stuff, thanks for sharing!

https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/6au9ai/showed_a_programmer_friend_of_mine_a_couple/

He admits they rush and 'hack' in code. Completely demolishing all the rude reddit citizens in that thread.

Also maybe there is a SECRET DEV BUILD?!??!?!?

# ? May 13, 2017 15:12

Tijuana Bibliophile: Dec 30, 2008; Scratchmo

Virtual Captain posted:

Greenscren on AtV. Production team needs some micromanaging Chris. Make those pixels clear, not green.

# ? May 13, 2017 15:22

AbstractNapper: Jun 5, 2011; I can help

TrustmeImLegit posted:

He admits they rush and 'hack' in code. Completely demolishing all the rude reddit citizens in that thread.

Also maybe there is a SECRET DEV BUILD?!??!?!?

I mean one must have no clue about game development and programming in particular if they delude themselves thinking CIG is taking their sweet time because they write awesome code while delivering that half-finished buggy crap for years.

No, CIG has no mechanisms in place to ensure code quality standards, and even without their own developers' admission it is obvious how much of hacks their management is. They don't have a solid plan, arguably no well thought out or fixed design document, and they constantly shift goals and targets, prioritizing fake demos (and how to make them look real! so that Chris won't look more like an idiot on stage).

These are not conditions to write great code. They undoubtedly lead to quick hacks with disregard of long term consequences, as well as convoluted, unmanageable, and unmaintainable code. Oh, and of course disposable code branches that were only worked on for fake demos and nothing else.

# ? May 13, 2017 15:25

phosdex: Dec 16, 2005

TrustmeImLegit posted:

Hey Goon Programmer guy who got super mad at bugsmashers and wrote a bunch of bullet points.

CIG is callin you out

That whole post is weird. It's not really refuting anything. It's just defense and excuses. Why did he choose this to respond to.

Also I guess they're hosed again if that guy falls off his bike too.

phosdex fucked around with this message at 15:31 on May 13, 2017

# ? May 13, 2017 15:29

Tijuana Bibliophile: Dec 30, 2008; Scratchmo

I can understand charging 5$ extra for 0$ CCUs. CIG isn't making any money off of 0$ CCUs and a lot of people are buying hundreds of these CCUs which puts a strain on their database.

However, increasing the price of CCU's by 5$ ACROSS THE BOARD is absolute bullshit. I'm a concierge backer, a Golden Ticket Holder, and I've supported CIG in pretty much every decision they've made thus far. But this is where I draw the line. This move comes off as to do nothing more than milk backers for more money.
Instead of ranting on any further, I'm going to put down some reasons why I think they should not increase prices of CCU's across the board, and why it's an incredibly stupid move.

The point of CCU's was to give freedom to backers to upgrade their ships and support the game further. Charging 5$ extra is punishing early backers who want to upgrade their ship to a new concept sale, or just plain and simple want to upgrade their ship to support the game further. Not only is this going to make backers rethink about pledging more money via CCUs, this is going to leave a very sour taste in their mouths when they're basically being charged for giving you business, and buying what is essentially a JPEG for concept sales.

The game is in alpha, and the stats of ships change. You mention this in every concept sale, and how ships are cheaper during concept phase because backers are supporting the development of that ship when there is an uncertainty about how that ship will really perform when released. The ships being subject to change is a major reason why current backers take advantage of the CCU system. Currently on my account I actually have only one ship and a shitton of credits, because I melted them all and am waiting on buy-back tokens. I am still unsure about what my final fleet of ships will be at release of the game because concept ships come out all the time.
CIG, this is an extremely bad decision and you need to rethink this. I support 0$ CCUs getting a price increase as I said before, but I am certain there is going to be an absolute shitstorm from the community if this plan goes ahead, and this is coming from one of your most loyal backers.

Edit : After reading some replies I'm going to refute some of the points I've read here.

Just melt the ship and buy the other ship you want, and there's no 5$ fee.

Concept sale ships have no game packages. In order for any backer to keep their game package while upgrading to any limited sale ship you have to own a combo package, or buy one of the base ships like an Aurora and upgrade to the concept ship you want. An average backer does not own more than one ship, and even for concierge backers like me I still need to keep my game package. There's also the point about LTI which is a huge reason why people upgrade (including myself), but even despite that the former reason is why it's not as simple as melting a ship and buying another.
The ship will be worth the 5$ extra when you CCU to it, so you will be refunded the 5$.

You're not getting "refunded" the 5$. The 5$ is still in CIG's pockets, you're just getting the extra 5$ you already paid as credit. So when you finally decide you want to settle for a ship you're still paying that 5$.
It's 5$, who cares?

While I backed this game to be a concierge, I refuse to be milked for any amount of money. I spent money on this game because I WANTED to, not because a change in their system forcefully charged me a fee. I didn't get to where I am financially disregarding any small amount of money, and while I can spend hundreds on luxury items that I want I'm not going to throw away 5$, 10$, or 20$ depending on how many ships I decide on CCU'ing. The amount of money in question is irrelevant anyways, and it's not even a counter-argument for implementing a fee to begin with.
Stop bitching, stop being entitled.

Seriously? I post a discussion thread about a system that's going to affect all backers with logical arguments. Instead of providing meaningful discussion there are people here that automatically call me entitled or saying I'm bitching while not providing any argument whatsoever. This is the reason why outsiders think of this community as a cult. And the reason why I said, "I'm a concierge backer, a Golden Ticket Holder, and I've supported CIG in pretty much every decision they've made thus far.". I felt the need to have some credibility by aligning myself in having supported CIG in the past, because I've seen how people react to criticisms toward CIG. Even the mods don't seem to care about some of the replies in this thread. I provided my counter-arguments to further this discussion, if you have a point to further the debate you're welcome to (and if you want to keep posting that I'm bitching, do that too, who's stopping you?).

# ? May 13, 2017 15:32

TrustmeImLegit: Jan 14, 2017; by FactsAreUseless

phosdex posted:

That whole post is weird. It's not really refuting anything. It's just defense and excuses. Why did he choose this to respond to.

Also I guess they're hosed again if that guy falls off his bike too.

honestly if anything its agreeing wholeheartedly with the OP that its hosed up. The only defense is we will be making it better in the future.

He apparently posted it to defend the guy who wrote it: By saying its trash but he does a lot of other really important work.

# ? May 13, 2017 15:36

XK: Jul 9, 2001; Star Citizen is everywhere. It is all around us. Even now, in this very room. You can see it's fidelity when you look out your window or when you watch youtube

We all knew they were throwing in on-the-spot "just make it work for now" hacks. If you do that once or twice, just for a trade show demo, fine.

It's pretty clear those kind of hacks are an every day thing, and nobody is ever going back to fix them until they fall over.

# ? May 13, 2017 15:37

Tijuana Bibliophile: Dec 30, 2008; Scratchmo

Why the CCU change is a good sign. :siren:

TL;DR: This means CIG is finally approaching a stage where they need solid ship data as a baseline to populate the persistent universe with content.

(edit: whether or not increasing the price is the right approach... that's a different discussion.)

Source posted:

there are a million potential ships backers can upgrade to at any time. It�s not so good for our designers, who use data on ships owned in their balancing work. As you can imagine, that�s getting more important the closer we get to the in-game economy!

The player population, and the ships we own, are a representative sample of the total population.

The percentage of Auroras contributes to the number of RSI factories. The amount of size 1 weapon factories determines how many laser cores, circuit, and polymer factories we�ll need, entertainment and population nodes for those factories, mineral and ore refineries, and the location and volume of raw resources.

Laser Cannon Supply Chain Example (Aurora MR comes standard with size 1 M3A)

Each of these in turn impacts the procedural missions that will be available. Every mission creates further demand for fuel, ammo, repair materials, components and subcomponents. Every mission is a potential escort or pirate mission. Each ship destroyed is a potential bounty mission. Consumption of resources drives exploration. And so on.

It all starts with how many Auroras are owned by players. Some ships are more limited, and that also will be accounted for (players may own more of certain ships, per capita).
"will these numbers factor in with the economic model?" yes, they will because we're gonna be designing the economy in such a way that all ships have to be produced. And so the simplest ships - so the Auroras - will be produced in much more volume than, say, a much rarer ship - something like an Idris corvette.

Source posted:

And so once you're flying around in the game, obviously the Auroras would probably be plentiful, in terms of being able to buy them in the same way that probably getting a Ford Fiesta is plentiful, or, you know, some sort of not particularly expensive or fancy car. And it will factor in� so therefore the numbers of them from our standpoint hopefully will correlate through, in terms of for what people have now and also kinda the frequency or rarity that they are in the game.

This data will be used along with whatever they've learned from the universe simulations they've been running (apparently) since at least 2015, and the board game they used before that.

Source posted:

We currently have the Universe Simulation happening on a server, and we have an interface where there's the communication of kind of what you would, this is the kind of thing you would see if you're in this area, and that's all in progress so�

# ? May 13, 2017 15:42

Tijuana Bibliophile: Dec 30, 2008; Scratchmo

I know a lot of posts like this have been made so forgive me for adding to the insanity. I just need to get this off my chest.

I've been following the development of this game since the Kickstarter days and recently decided to pull the trigger on purchasing. I did this for three reason.

To support what I feel will be the model for expansive MMOs going forward.
To support an incredible group of indie developers.
The game looks like it will be drat fun once it's in a more playable state.

Just last night I completed my first mission and experienced something I had never experienced before in a video game. Complete immersion. There I was floating in space, debris from an unfortunate accident surrounding me and my ship, and in the distance I see a floating body with a message. Grab the message and before you know it a Public Enemy is firing on me and my ship. Needless to say it was an exhilarating moment. Spacewalk to my ship, try to fight for a moment, give up and warp to safety. Well he decided to follow me. The chat started lighting up. People were on the search for the enemy and I was all alone with him and in no shape to win the fight. Then like Gandalf returning as the White Wizard, ships from all across the galaxy warped in and provided me much needed backup to complete my mission and escape.

This short time period was one of the most exciting moments I've ever had in a game, despite the buggy 20fps state the game is in now.

The reason I bring this up is because of how negatively I see the press, and there by their readers, react to this game. You have a development team that is without question the most open developers I've ever seen. I mean you can sit and watch someone fix bugs on a YouTube if you want, not to mention the constant communication with the community and backers of the game. What is causing all of this negativity? Are the backers upset or is it just the public misunderstanding what this game is all about?

I think if more people knew about my experience with the game instead of seeing "Star Citizen delayed" coming from all the gaming news sites they'd be a bit more understanding. What do all of you think? I'd love to know your thoughts.

# ? May 13, 2017 15:44

Mr Fronts: Jan 31, 2016; Yo! The Mafia supports you. But don't tell no one. Spread the word.

TrustmeImLegit posted:

Hey Goon Programmer guy who got super mad at bugsmashers and wrote a bunch of bullet points.

CIG is callin you out

https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/6au9ai/showed_a_programmer_friend_of_mine_a_couple/

He admits they rush and 'hack' in code. Completely demolishing all the rude reddit citizens in that thread.

Also maybe there is a SECRET DEV BUILD?!??!?!?

quote:

It's not uncommon to find uninitalized variables in physics code, and a lot of the time they're actually there on purpose.

There are many reasons to deliberately code up and use uninitialised variables, including

# ? May 13, 2017 15:44

Tijuana Bibliophile: Dec 30, 2008; Scratchmo

Reddit is amazing :allears:

# ? May 13, 2017 15:44

vyst: Aug 25, 2009

Virtual Captain posted:

Greenscren on AtV. Production team needs some micromanaging Chris. Make those pixels clear, not green.

There's something ridiculously appropriate about CIG having to pretend they have people working

# ? May 13, 2017 15:46

Virtual Captain: Feb 20, 2017; Archive Priest of the Stimperial Order

Star Citizen Good, in all things forevermore. Amen.

Tijuana Bibliophile posted:

However, increasing the price of CCU's by 5$ ACROSS THE BOARD is absolute bullshit. I'm a concierge backer, a Golden Ticket Holder, and I've supported CIG in pretty much every decision they've made thus far. But this is where I draw the line. This move comes off as to do nothing more than milk backers for more money.

CIG is coming off as milking backers? You don't say!

$500+ ships are fine but THIS is where we draw the line!

Tijuana Bibliophile posted:

Reddit is amazing

# ? May 13, 2017 15:48

Taintrunner: Apr 10, 2017; by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

Christ, and for a short while, I actually thought this game might be coming out. Thanks for enlightening me, goons. I feel like I've gotten hundreds of dollars of entertainment out of Star Citizen for absolutely free!

# ? May 13, 2017 15:51

phosdex: Dec 16, 2005

I'm the database being strained by a couple hundred transactions a day.

# ? May 13, 2017 15:51

no_recall: Aug 17, 2015; Lipstick Apathy

Smeg

# ? May 13, 2017 15:52

Daztek: Jun 2, 2006

TrustmeImLegit posted:

Hey Goon Programmer guy who got super mad at bugsmashers and wrote a bunch of bullet points.

CIG is callin you out

https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/6au9ai/showed_a_programmer_friend_of_mine_a_couple/

He admits they rush and 'hack' in code. Completely demolishing all the rude reddit citizens in that thread.

Also maybe there is a SECRET DEV BUILD?!??!?!?

Without John we wouldn't have the amazing physics behind the ships in the game.

:allears:

# ? May 13, 2017 15:57

BeefThief: Aug 8, 2007

What a disaster.

# ? May 13, 2017 16:04

Tijuana Bibliophile: Dec 30, 2008; Scratchmo

Taintrunner posted:

Christ, and for a short while, I actually thought this game might be coming out. Thanks for enlightening me, goons. I feel like I've gotten hundreds of dollars of entertainment out of Star Citizen for absolutely free!

It's actually $10 :smugdog:

# ? May 13, 2017 16:09

Tijuana Bibliophile: Dec 30, 2008; Scratchmo

phosdex posted:

I'm the database being strained by a couple hundred transactions a day.

Maybe it's implemented in xml

e: seems that's actually a thing, who'da thunk

# ? May 13, 2017 16:11

Zzr: Oct 6, 2016

Tijuana Bibliophile posted:

It's actually $10

I'll get a refund from SA when this thread is done.

# ? May 13, 2017 16:12

Virtual Captain: Feb 20, 2017; Archive Priest of the Stimperial Order

Star Citizen Good, in all things forevermore. Amen.

Lowtax probably opening up his 20 year old TOS right now. Time to Iron-clad.

# ? May 13, 2017 16:18

Beet Wagon: Oct 19, 2015

We know a guy who can help with that...

# ? May 13, 2017 16:21

Taintrunner: Apr 10, 2017; by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWiKSzBr-2Q

Did you guys see this yet? It's basically never gonna happen, right?

# ? May 13, 2017 16:27

Virtual Captain: Feb 20, 2017; Archive Priest of the Stimperial Order

Star Citizen Good, in all things forevermore. Amen.

Taintrunner posted:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWiKSzBr-2Q

Did you guys see this yet? It's basically never gonna happen, right?

I remember checking the SA thread back a few months after the kickstarter had ended. It was so full of this kind of ~dreams~ talk I thought it all was working in some rudimentary fashion that was too ugly to screenshot.

# ? May 13, 2017 16:45

HycoCam: Jul 14, 2016; You should have backed Transverse!

fuctifino posted:

https://twitter.com/GhandiSardiner/status/863365592698564612

Exciting times to be a Star Citizen--you can be a bald space marine or mini-van driving mom!

# ? May 13, 2017 16:50

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# ? May 16, 2024 14:17

Sir Simon Milligan: Mar 27, 2003; Yes, I have walked along the path of evil many times, it's a twisting curving path, that actually leads to a charming block garden, but beyond that evil!

I'm sure all the dudes looking for escapism wanted the middle aged CEO look for the women they were gonna haul around in their cargo holds.

# ? May 13, 2017 17:03

The Something Awful Forums > Archives > Comedy Goldmine > The Goodmine > Star Citizen: Death of a Space Thread?

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