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What is the best flav... you all know what this question is: This poll is closed. |
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| Labour |
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907 | 49.92% |
| Theresa May Team (Conservative) |
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48 | 2.64% |
| Liberal Democrats |
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31 | 1.71% |
| UKIP |
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13 | 0.72% |
| Plaid Cymru |
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25 | 1.38% |
| Green |
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22 | 1.21% |
| Scottish Socialist Party |
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12 | 0.66% |
| Scottish Conservative Party |
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1 | 0.06% |
| Scottish National Party |
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59 | 3.25% |
| Some Kind of Irish Unionist |
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4 | 0.22% |
| Alliance / Irish Nonsectarian |
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3 | 0.17% |
| Some Kind of Irish Nationalist |
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36 | 1.98% |
| Misc. Far Left Trots |
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35 | 1.93% |
| Misc. Far Right Fash |
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8 | 0.44% |
| Monster Raving Loony |
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49 | 2.70% |
| Space Navies Party |
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39 | 2.15% |
| Independent / Single Issue |
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2 | 0.11% |
| Can't Vote |
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188 | 10.35% |
| Won't Vote |
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8 | 0.44% |
| Spoiled Ballot |
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15 | 0.83% |
| Pissflaps |
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312 | 17.17% |
| Total: | 1817 votes | ||
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Miftan posted:"Lost their seats and didn't deserve to" Soo.... None of them? Well yeah, and that's what's so interesting. Until the decision is made, constitutionally she can ask any random person off the street to form a government, but because none of this poo poo is actually written down we just don't know what happens until it happens and then whatever we come up with becomes the new rule. Now I think about it though I guess the constitutional sleight of hand that lets May remain PM once Parliament is dissolved works just as well in this situation, so all that would happen would be that May remains de jure PM until after Parliament is opened then whoever the Tories replace her with gets asked to form a government.
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Jun 9, 2017 23:00
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Raeg posted:Based on '74? Could be as soon as winter. But was that triggered by neither side being able to form a government? Surely it would have to be weeks rather than months?
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Jun 9, 2017 23:00
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Miftan posted:UKMT is pretty chill if you're not a racist butt. This is one of the nicest threads outside BYOB as long as you're not a loving shithead. It's amazing how many can't manage.
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Jun 9, 2017 23:03
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goddamnedtwisto posted:Well yeah, and that's what's so interesting. Until the decision is made, constitutionally she can ask any random person off the street to form a government, but because none of this poo poo is actually written down we just don't know what happens until it happens and then whatever we come up with becomes the new rule. What if Liz asks May and then MAY CROSSES THE AISLE? Does Labour get to form a government? Haha, man, this lack of constitution stuff is great. UK politics is wild.
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Jun 9, 2017 23:03
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Pissflaps posted:What sort of timescale would there be for this? May needs to get her Queen's speech approved when parliament opens, that's on the 19th of this month. She has 9 days to make sure she can get something passed.
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Jun 9, 2017 23:05
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Corbyn doesnt have the numbers to form a left-ish coalition unless he poaches a good number of Tories. Welp
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Jun 9, 2017 23:05
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Miftan posted:What if Liz asks May and then MAY CROSSES THE AISLE? Does Labour get to form a government? Haha, man, this lack of constitution stuff is great. UK politics is wild. "Chaos reigns"? It was in charge all along.
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Jun 9, 2017 23:05
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Evan Davies really seems to dumb things down
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Jun 9, 2017 23:05
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Tsaedje posted:May needs to get her Queen's speech approved when parliament opens, that's on the 19th of this month. She has 9 days to make sure she can get something passed. Entire contents of this years Queens Speech: "Theresa May is Prime Minister" Somehow still voted down.
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Jun 9, 2017 23:07
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Miftan posted:What's with all the nice Americans showing up? This is not what we've become accustomed to over the past couple of weeks. We're so desperate for any glimmer of hope that we're trying to live vicariously through yours.
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Jun 9, 2017 23:09
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Nissin Cup Nudist posted:Corbyn doesnt have the numbers to form a left-ish coalition unless he poaches a good number of Tories. Only needs 7 disaffected Tories to switch or 14 to abstain
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Jun 9, 2017 23:10
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BobTheJanitor posted:We're so desperate for any glimmer of hope that we're trying to live vicariously through yours. Not an emptyquote
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Jun 9, 2017 23:10
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Tsaedje posted:Only needs 7 disaffected Tories to switch or 14 to abstain ie: Ruth Davidson's entire contingent...
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Jun 9, 2017 23:11
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Raeg posted:Entire contents of this years Queens Speech: voted down by half the Tories I'd imagine
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Jun 9, 2017 23:11
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Ruth Davidson on Scots/UK Tory split rumours: https://twitter.com/RuthDavidsonMSP/status/873296157270827009
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Jun 9, 2017 23:12
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BobTheJanitor posted:We're so desperate for any glimmer of hope that we're trying to live vicariously through yours. Yeah just when you think you've finally been desensitized to Trump the former FBI director comes out and pretty much stops a hair short of saying he obstructed justice, and the best defense the Republicans can give is that Trump is an idiot and didn't know any better so it's all okay. Watching the UK not gently caress it up was a nice turn around.
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Jun 9, 2017 23:12
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OwlFancier posted:Oh god I want her take on this so much. Or perhaps... If Snape were revealed to not only be a good guy, but one of the most important ones on the side of good and always acting in their best interest? (Yes I know this post is from a ton of pages ago and that this isn't an original observation.) Also yes, nth-ing the "as a US leftist I am deriving happiness from your election because ours have been poo poo" sentiment.
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Jun 9, 2017 23:12
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Or just the pissed off Tory contingent god this schadenfreude is so delicious I might cream myself *will not actually cream myself its figurative only
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Jun 9, 2017 23:12
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https://twitter.com/makeupnmorphine/status/873289084453748736
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Jun 9, 2017 23:12
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Alright lads and lasses, seeing as there's a lot of questions about Are Wee Country given the DUP issue, I'm going to put together a small effortpost that can hopefully clear some things up. Bear in mind that I've not actually lived in the province for some time now, and though it's an area of interest, it's not an area I could be called a specialist. You can probably assume that anyone correcting me is more accurate than I am. Also, full disclosure, family of mine was killed in the Shankill Road Bombing of 1993, and I in principle support unification, so various biases may show. Anyway, caveats out of the way, here goes: What is Northern Ireland? Northern Ireland occupies six of the thirty two historical counties of Ireland in the north-east of the island, and is one of the four constituent countries that make up the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland (the other three being England, Wales, and Scotland). Whilst England has massive power due to population and hosting the actual UK Parliament, and Wales and Scotland have varying levels of devolved powers, Northern Ireland is a special case due to the legacy of the Troubles. NI is also sometimes called Ulster (Which isn't accurate to the historical Ulster and upsets some Nats as a result), or affectionately, Norn Iron, because that's how us eejits pronounce it. Norn Iron has basically no political connotations and is a pretty good informal term as a result. What were The Troubles? Most people will be aware that the Troubles were a period of enormous civil discord and conflict, primarily taking place in NI, lasting from the '60s to the late '90s. More specifically, it was a conflict between the 'Unionists' (So named due to their desire to remain in the United Kingdom) and the 'Nationalists' (Who support a united Ireland), with the Unionists getting under-the-table backing from UK state actors and the Nats having mostly to scrounge up support wherever they could, including weapons stolen from the Norwegian Army, AKs donated by Gaddafi, and various things bought in the US and smuggled over. Anyway, the reasons for the conflict are vast and complicated, but at the simplest level, England embarked on an imperial project in Ireland that lasted almost a millennium, starting with the Norman invasion in the twelfth century. Over the long centuries the north of Ireland proved to be the most intractable to these foreign invaders, and as a result a huge number of settlers (mainly from Scotland) were brought into the region. So anyway Ireland wins independence, after literal centuries of revolts and rebellions, in the early years of the 20th century, but the settlements in the North had been effective enough to create a new identity of Ulster-Scots, and these people were fiercely loyal to the English throne. End result, Northern Ireland stays with the UK while the rest of Ireland goes their own way. Unfortunately the settlement was not palatable to basically anyone, and tensions rose over the years, with Unionists terrified of an impending annexation by the Republic that would leave them all out of work at best, and Nats treated as second-class citizens, repressed by the Unionist-dominated coppers, and so on. In the late 60s this came to a head with the Battle of the Bogside, which was a fuckoff enormous riot in Derry (Or Londonderry if that's what you prefer). The Troubles were on. The Irish Republican Army (IRA) and Irish National Liberation Army (INLA) on the Nationalist side, and Ulster Defence Association (UDA), Ulster Volunteer Force (UVF), and a shitload of other wee groups and splinter factions on the Unionist side. Basically we all spend the next thirty years bombing and shooting and baseball batting the shite out of each other, and Northern Ireland became a pretty brutal place, where police stations were armored like you'd expect to see in Iraq in 2006, violence was everyday, and Belfast at least had to be physically divided by huge-rear end walls euphemistically called Peace Lines because otherwise we all went into Permanent Riot Mode and it's like 28 Days Later up in. So what ended this mess? An extremely long and grueling political process, the Peace Process, whose cornerstone is commonly called the Good Friday Agreement. It is widely acknowledged to be a messy and imperfect situation, but it did well enough to put the worst of The Troubles in the past, and the few remaining diehards on both sides were mostly left out in the cold. In part this was because the peace process involved basically every group of relevance in the matter, which meant sitting down across the table from known terrorist leaders. Concessions of various sorts were made, one of the most contentious of which was prisoner releases of convicted terrorists and so on; not something many bereaved families want to see, but if it stops more families ending up in the same situation, it's something I'm personally able to live with. As I say though, it was a good enough agreement to end the great majority of serious violence, despite ongoing issues with things like marches and so on. The thing is that one of the core, central, most indispensable parts of the agreement is the dissolution of a hard border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland, which brings us up to the current mess. There are many other ways in which the EU is an important guarantor of peace, but that is by far the main one. Almost everyone ended up in agreement on it, with referendums in both the North and Republic strongly in support of the agreement, and only one major political player opposed - the Democratic Unionist Party. Wait, what about Sinn Fein? They don't take their seats, but could they, to change the maths? Okay, Sinn Fein are/were the political wing of Irish Nationalism and were very strongly linked to the IRA, which is one of the main reasons aforesaid compromises were both hard to get and essential. They remain committed to a United Ireland, and they stand for UK General Elections in the North (They're also active in the Republic as a more 'normal' political party but that's not directly germane). They reliably get a handful of seats in Norn Iron, but due to history and objectives, they do not take the seats they win in the British Parliament. To do so would give legitimacy to British rule over Northern Ireland. The Commons has 650 representatives, meaning on paper a party needs to win 326 seats in order to have a majority, and thereby have an uncomplicated mandate that only has to worry about their own party's MPs. Because SF doesn't take their seats, this number is reduced, usually to 323. This time around SF actually won seven seats, meaning that magic number for this Parliament is 322. As the Tories have 318, they need to find four seats from elsewhere to have the majority needed for getting things done. Everyone else is either too ideologically opposed to the Tories (e.g. the SNP) or has been badly burned by coalitions before (Liberal Democrats), which means the only game in town appears to be the DUP. In this instance, as the DUP have ten seats, a Tory-DUP coalition or alliance or whatever tots up to 328, which is a very narrow majority but enough. However, there was last night a possible situation where the Tories and DUP would add up to about 323 seats, which would mean, should Sinn Fein actually take their seats, that this coalition would lose its majority. As SF loving detest the Tories with every fibre of their beings it is understandable that people could ask "Hang on... what if...?" but it was never really on the cards. Sinn Fein's party constitution explicitly forbids taking Westminster seats, and our dead, gay forum's general consensus is that whilst there may be some theoretical circumstance where they'd take their seats, we are talking about some kind of insane situation where they are needed in order to stop an existential threat. That all said, being able to kill a Tory-DUP coalition has to be the most tempting look at Westminster Sinn Fein's had in a long long time. Alright, they're not taking their seats - So what about the DUP? The Democratic Unionist Party, or DUP, are unique in UK politics in that they are an evangelical force that has considerable power at least in Norn Iron. They're anti-abortion, anti-gay-marriage, and have at least some people high in the party who deny climate change and are Young Earth Creationists. They were founded by the inimical Reverend Ian Paisley, who was, uh, firm in his stances on remaining part of the UK among other things. Now, normally this lot aren't doing anything on the UK stage as a whole, being more concerned with vetoing gay marriage or expansion of abortion rights in Norn Iron. Yesterday's election shattered that however; today the DUP are the only thing propping up Theresa May's government, giving them massive influence and power. Now, the modern Conservative party has made attempts to be more socially progressive, and indeed they were the party who got gay marriage legislation through the Commons and legalized it in the UK minus Northern Ireland, and they more-or-less consider that stuff to be secondary at best, and a series of lost battles at worst. The DUP probably won't be demanding an abortion ban or anything, but they also can't be counted on to support anything progressive that comes up, because it's going to make Jimmy on the Newtownards Road extremely upset come next election time. Still, these are more-or-less negotiable or avoidable, and you'd be likely able to count on other parties supporting things like that regardless. The real problem is in Brexit. Wait, Brexit? How does that effect Northern Ireland? Remember when I said the Good Friday Agreement relied on an open border? Yeah, that's the problem. Regressive as they are in many ways, the DUP are smart enough to know that the border with the Republic is essential. Since the end of the Troubles, NI has seen a lot of new growth and development (place looks nothing like it did when I was wee), and the current economy is hugely reliant on being able to trade over the border with zero paperwork, fees, or anything else. You just hop in your truck in Newry, drive down to Drogheda, and start unloading. So Brexit is going to put that to bed, because it will create a border between the United Kingdom and the European Union, a land border in the case of the island of Ireland. Absolutely everyone in Norn Iron is bricking it as a result because they know just how catastrophic this will be for the economy, and the DUP wants the softest Brexit they can get as a result. Whatever the border looks like, it needs to be as open to movement and trade as it is today, and every addition to that starts putting people out of work and closing businesses. Unfortunately for prospects of their coalition, the Tories have taken very much the opposite tack; a Full English Brexit, a Red White and Blue Brexit, a Hard Brexit, "No deal is better than a bad deal", and so on. Characterize it as you please, the end result is the same, the Tories don't give a flying gently caress about NI or the consequences of Brexit, and have traded on promises of sticking it to the EU and being willing to crash out of the negotiations if they can't get the deal they want. Unfortunately, contrary to what they claim, the EU does not need us more than we need them, and given how done Brussels is with our stupid bullshit, they're not going to be very open to us pissing around. Everything else can be negotiated or just put on the back burner until the next parliament, but because Article 50 has been triggered, and the negotiations are scheduled to start in a mere ten days, Brexit cannot. It is coming down the tracks with absolute inexorability, and no matter what is done, SOMEONE is going to be angry enough to pull their support out of Parliament and scuttle the whole thing. May wasn't actually wrong that going in with like a 50+ seat majority would strengthen her hand, but it was actually about domestic strength more than with the EU negotiators. Now, if she pursues the hard Brexit her party wants, the DUP will tell her to get out tae gently caress. If she pursues one soft enough to satisfy them, her own MPs will tell her to get out tae gently caress. And the thing is that this does not change if she goes. Sometimes you can shore things up with a change of leadership, but whatever poor sod is in charge, with the Commons distributed as it is, faces exactly the same situation and exactly the same problems. Further Constitutional Complications In order to secure peace in Norn Iron, the London government had to basically step back from any sort of party political involvement in the Province. The UK at large was supposed to act as a guarantor and mediator, with the authority to bring everyone together and have them sit down and find agreements, but largely staying hands-off otherwise. To explicitly favor one political party or enter into agreement with them is deeply and fundamentally problematic in this regard. This may be why there's no announcement of a formal coalition, to maintain plausible deniability over this matter, but the problem was never going to be in the official name of the thing. As the North is currently mired in an existing political crisis anyway, with the devolved government in Stormont unable to agree on an Executive and therefore not currently actually sitting, far past the deadline for forming a government, so it's hard to imagine any of this coming at a worse time. That deadline was extended due to the General Election but things are only more complicated right now. So... Brexit bad? Brexit bad enough that, if handled badly, we could be in for Troubles 2: Electric Boogaloo, or a NI unification referendum, or God alone knows. I wouldn't expect a marked increase in violence but who can say for sure? And the various groups are much smaller than at their heights, but they're mostly still there, carrying on as criminal gangs more than anything, but no doubt all able to get guns and bombs together for a new campaign if needed. Ms Adequate fucked around with this message at 23:15 on Jun 9, 2017 |
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Jun 9, 2017 23:13
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Miftan posted:UKMT is pretty chill if you're not a racist butt. Non-U.S. politics threads seem to be the best places to post if you want the funniest redtext titles.
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Jun 9, 2017 23:13
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goddamnedtwisto posted:Yes, I know that (I spent an unbelievable amount of time explaining this in 2010). Well, the Queen didn't ask May to form a government. May's ministry is simply continuing - ministries aren't tied to parliamentary terms. And no there's no reason the Tories couldn't sack May and have whoever wins their leadership election be asked to form government.
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Jun 9, 2017 23:13
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Zero Gravitas posted:Or just the pissed off Tory contingent Get some jam to go with that.
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Jun 9, 2017 23:14
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Julio Cruz posted:There'd need to be a vote of No Confidence for another GE, which would only happen if there were Tory rebels (not likely while May is still leader, they know they're toast while she's in charge) or the DUP would have to reason that they're better off not getting into bed with the Tories after all, which might happen but is probably unlikely right now. No-one on the Tory/DUP side will want another election, but a lot will depend on how the government functions. If it becomes clear that nothing can get passed, then it becomes a game of brinksmanship with both sides saying 'back down or we'll collapse the government'. And once you get into a game of brinksmanship with a feeble government it will only take a handful of people thinking their seats are safe enough so gently caress it why not have another election. jabby fucked around with this message at 23:21 on Jun 9, 2017 |
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Jun 9, 2017 23:14
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Quotey posted:Ruth Davidson on Scots/UK Tory split rumours: I mean, she pretty much has to say this no matter what's actually going on.
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Jun 9, 2017 23:15
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Oh no, not a rude song 
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Jun 9, 2017 23:15
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Pinterest Mom posted:Well, the Queen didn't ask May to form a government. May's ministry is simply continuing - ministries aren't tied to parliamentary terms. Trouble for them is they don't have anyone else remotely capable of leading the party, that's why May's leader in the first place.
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Jun 9, 2017 23:17
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Roland Jones posted:Or perhaps... If Snape were revealed to not only be a good guy, but one of the most important ones on the side of good and always acting in their best interest? If anyone is actually curious about Rowling's take on this, her twitter page has exactly zero references to Corbyn, but does have this 14-tweet thread: https://twitter.com/jk_rowling/status/873207949564497920 (n.b. I don't disagree that this is not a good thing to do) also n+1th-ing that sentiment
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Jun 9, 2017 23:17
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BobTheJanitor posted:We're so desperate for any glimmer of hope that we're trying to live vicariously through yours. I think we're more hosed for the long term than Trumpland, relative to where we started.
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Jun 9, 2017 23:17
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Tsaedje posted:Trouble for them is they don't have anyone else remotely capable of leading the party, that's why May's leader in the first place. Well I suppose that May could do the honourable thing, resign, in her PM's honours list make Davidson a Lady and parachute her into Westminster, but I'm going to go out on a limb and say that's not going to happen.
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Jun 9, 2017 23:19
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Tsaedje posted:Trouble for them is they don't have anyone else remotely capable of leading the party, that's why May's leader in the first place. I mean, there's no rule that the PM has to be an MP. The Tories could beg Ruth to take the job and have her take them to a new election, something like that.
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Jun 9, 2017 23:19
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jabby posted:No-one on the Tory/DUP side will want another election, but a lot will depend on how the government functions. If it becomes clear that nothing can get passed, then it becomes a game of brinksmanship with both sides saying 'back down or we'll collapse the government'. And once you get into a game of brinksmanship with a feeble government it will only take a handful of people thinking their seats are safe enough so gently caress it why not have another eleciton. and remember a lot of the Labour right thought a crushing defeat would be worth it if they got rid of Corbyn, there could be Tories willing to go down the same route to dump May.
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Jun 9, 2017 23:20
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smug n stuff posted:If anyone is actually curious about Rowling's take on this, her twitter page has exactly zero references to Corbyn, but does have this 14-tweet thread: 'whom I thought smart and funny' or 'who I thought was smart and funny' jeez, she's supposed to be a writer
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Jun 9, 2017 23:20
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To add onto Mister Adequate's post: one of the DUP's MPs, Sammy Wilson (who is no stranger to running through wheat fields naked) once spoke approvingly of a UDA document that openly called for the genocide of the Catholic population. At the time he was saying that, Muslims in Bosnia were being ethnically cleansed by the Serbs and Gerry Adams was busy in talks with the British and Irish governments trying to secure peace.
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Jun 9, 2017 23:20
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kustomkarkommando posted:May probably wont be able to avoid having to bring in international mediators now, the Irish government will push for it and the Americans will probably get a bit testy on the issue. Oh great yeah bring in Trump that will help (It will not help)
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Jun 9, 2017 23:20
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quote:Unfortunately for prospects of their coalition, the Tories have taken very much the opposite tack; a Full English Brexit, a Red White and Blue Brexit, a Hard Brexit, "No deal is better than a bad deal", and so on. Characterize it as you please, the end result is the same, the Tories don't give a flying gently caress about NI or the consequences of Brexit, and have traded on promises of sticking it to the EU and being willing to crash out of the negotiations if they can't get the deal they want. Unfortunately, contrary to what they claim, the EU does not need us more than we need them, and given how done Brussels is with our stupid bullshit, they're not going to be very open to us pissing around. Why then would the DUP even agree to be part of a coalition with the Tories? Just let Corbyn handle Brexit and get a better deal by default.
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Jun 9, 2017 23:21
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And the misfits had a song about killing babies and raping mothers. It's very easy to take art and music out of context and I think you should pause and investigate before grabbing your rope.
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Jun 9, 2017 23:22
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dont even fink about it posted:Why then would the DUP even agree to be part of a coalition with the Tories? Just let Corbyn handle Brexit and get a better deal by default. The DUP hate Corbyn with a passion
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Jun 9, 2017 23:22
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How long before May resigns under serious pressure and Bojo takes her place?
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Jun 9, 2017 23:23
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Mister Adequate posted:Alright lads and lasses, seeing as there's a lot of questions about Are Wee Country given the DUP issue, I'm going to put together a small effortpost that can hopefully clear some things up. Bear in mind that I've not actually lived in the province for some time now, and though it's an area of interest, it's not an area I could be called a specialist. You can probably assume that anyone correcting me is more accurate than I am. Also, full disclosure, family of mine was killed in the Shankill Road Bombing of 1993, and I in principle support unification, so various biases may show. Anyway, caveats out of the way, here goes: Pro as gently caress read. Ta for that.
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Jun 9, 2017 23:23
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