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Aurubin posted:Evilweasel as easy as it is to just be smug and call you naive, honestly, why do you think this would be a bridge too far? It's easy to make excuses for new things that have never happened before. The problem is that we have all agreed that firing a special prosecutor, because he's prosecuting you, is not ok. It's the exact thing that happened with Nixon. Because it's the exact thing that happened with Nixon, you can't find an excuse for it that isn't also saying the Saturday Night Massacre was ok. And that's how Republicans reacted to Nixon as well: they didn't immediately move to impeach him, they forced a new special counsel to inoculate themselves from his criminality while keeping him in office as long as possible. Nixon wasn't impeached after the Saturday Night Massacre. That's just when Republicans realized this poo poo was serious and wasn't going away, and it was high time to start planning to protect themselves.
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Jun 13, 2017 00:18
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Majorian posted:Those who represent purple districts might not be quite so easy to whip in line... There was a worrying article on nymag.com that was basically arguing those representatives are making the calculation they're hosed with everyone but Trump's base, so instead of trying to avoid doing terrible things and moving to the center they're moving to the right to energize their base and get that sweet sweet dark PAC money. So basically as they get more worried, they'll get worse.
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Jun 13, 2017 00:21
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Sinteres posted:I feel like hoping that the worst that could happen would happen because it would guarantee someone would have to do something hasn't worked out very well for us with Trump for the last two years. I want the investigation to continue. Me too. But if he's that stupid, the way I see it it's just more coal for the fire. Mueller had bipartisan support; he was praised unilaterally when he was appointed. Firing him on top of Comey would increase the pressure on both sides of the aisle significantly.
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Jun 13, 2017 00:23
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Firing mueller will be the tipping point if trump does it. Republican will abandon him in droves after that because it is simply too transparently corrupt. Not all of them but many will. A new special prosecutor would more or less instantly be appointed. That's if rosenstein even fired him - can he refuse?
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Jun 13, 2017 00:25
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https://twitter.com/RepAdamSchiff/status/874406787293773824 at least one (powerless) person agrees with me!
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Jun 13, 2017 00:25
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Sinteres posted:This has gone from 'no way he'd be that stupid' to 'if he does, he's hosed,' to 'he bout to do it' in record time. he is gonna do it. he is gonna go super nixon. jesus gently caress. Fart City posted:Bring it on, man. I almost hope he does fire Mueller. Not only would it all but act as an admission of guilt on the part of Trump, but drat-near every Republican that could be wrangled onto a Sunday morning news show is on record with their support for the dude. this. if Saturday night massacre 2 happens, I honestly think most republicans will turn on him, or more likely, bail. evilweasel posted:https://twitter.com/jdawsey1/status/874403142657617921 he will do it. Dapper_Swindler fucked around with this message at 00:30 on Jun 13, 2017 |
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Jun 13, 2017 00:27
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evilweasel posted:https://twitter.com/RepAdamSchiff/status/874406787293773824 Holy poo poo I want this to happen. It would enrage trump so badly he's do something twice as stupid, which I really can't even guess as to what it would be but trump is a savant at figuring out what the absolutely dumbest dumb poo poo stupid thing to do is and doing it.
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Jun 13, 2017 00:28
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enraged_camel posted:This reminds me of this one time an acquaintance who was a young aeronautical engineer bragged about how he was so smart for turning down a raise at his job because it would put him in a higher tax bracket and reduce his take-home pay. I had to interject and explain to him in front of everyone at the table that tax brackets don't work that way. gently caress, my 50-something year old father still thinks that. And also thinks that it's called a progressive tax because Progressives came up with it.
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Jun 13, 2017 00:29
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evilweasel posted:There was a worrying article on nymag.com that was basically arguing those representatives are making the calculation they're hosed with everyone but Trump's base, so instead of trying to avoid doing terrible things and moving to the center they're moving to the right to energize their base and get that sweet sweet dark PAC money. So basically as they get more worried, they'll get worse. This is basically my worry as to my earlier question to you. I may be mistaken because I wasn't alive, but I don't think the rabidity of Nixon's base was there in the end, even if he left with 80% approval among the GOP. I'm of the opinion that should Mueller be fired, they'll just say "it was within the powers of the presidency" and move on. It was Rod Rosenstein that hired Mueller to protect his reputation, which is somewhat removed from those of the legislative GOP.
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Jun 13, 2017 00:29
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empty whippet box posted:Firing mueller will be the tipping point if trump does it. Republican will abandon him in droves after that because it is simply too transparently corrupt. Not all of them but many will. A new special prosecutor would more or less instantly be appointed. That's if rosenstein even fired him - can he refuse?
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Jun 13, 2017 00:30
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Aurubin posted:This is basically my worry as to my earlier question to you. I may be mistaken because I wasn't alive, but I don't think the rabidity of Nixon's base was there in the end, even if he left with 80% approval among the GOP. I'm of the opinion that should Mueller be fired, they'll just say "it was within the powers of the presidency" and move on. It was Rod Rosenstein that hired Mueller to protect his reputation, which is somewhat removed from those of the legislative GOP. Appointing an independent counsel can easily be spun as just protecting Trump from his inexperience, much like Ryan going "its bad he fired comey but he is just too dumb to know better. because he's a moron. that's my defense." It's threading a needle between impeaching him outright for obstruction of justice (the correct thing to do) and doing nothing. It won't rile his base too much and it will preserve some of their credibility for the future.
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Jun 13, 2017 00:31
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Am I the only one who hopes that Mueller stays and completes the investigation like its supposed to happen?
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Jun 13, 2017 00:32
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FlamingLiberal posted:If Rosenstein (or Sessions for that matter, since it's not clear he's actually recused himself) refused, Trump would have to fire him and go to the next person in line, like Nixon had to do during the Saturday Night Massacre. Trump also has the option of abolishing the regulations that prevent him from firing Mueller himself and then doing it personally, which lets him avoid needing to fire people until he finds enough of a toady.
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Jun 13, 2017 00:32
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Trump firing Sessions only to then further gently caress himself by firing Mueller would be just so loving delicious.
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Jun 13, 2017 00:32
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OctaMurk posted:Am I the only one who hopes that Mueller stays and completes the investigation like its supposed to happen? Mueller and I also want that.
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Jun 13, 2017 00:33
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OctaMurk posted:Am I the only one who hopes that Mueller stays and completes the investigation like its supposed to happen?
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Jun 13, 2017 00:34
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evilweasel posted:Appointing an independent counsel can easily be spun as just protecting Trump from his inexperience, much like Ryan going "its bad he fired comey but he is just too dumb to know better. because he's a moron. that's my defense." It's threading a needle between impeaching him outright for obstruction of justice (the correct thing to do) and doing nothing. It won't rile his base too much and it will preserve some of their credibility for the future. I really think this is the problem. What do you mean by credibility? What credibility do they have or want? Look at how the AHCA is being passed.
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Jun 13, 2017 00:35
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OctaMurk posted:Am I the only one who hopes that Mueller stays and completes the investigation like its supposed to happen? If he gets fired, it's the closest thing to an admission of guilt we'll ever get
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Jun 13, 2017 00:35
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OctaMurk posted:Am I the only one who hopes that Mueller stays and completes the investigation like its supposed to happen? Anyone who doesn't want that is either Donald Trump or ludicrously optimistic. Or maybe is looking forward to their future career as a War Boy.
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Jun 13, 2017 00:36
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evilweasel posted:There was a worrying article on nymag.com that was basically arguing those representatives are making the calculation they're hosed with everyone but Trump's base, so instead of trying to avoid doing terrible things and moving to the center they're moving to the right to energize their base and get that sweet sweet dark PAC money. So basically as they get more worried, they'll get worse. That strategy dovestails well into a voter suppression anti-GOTV campaign cycle.
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Jun 13, 2017 00:37
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Sinteres posted:If he or anyone around him is smart, Trump is just floating this as a trial balloon to see how much pushback he gets ahead of time instead of finding out after the fact like he did with Comey. How many trial balloons have they floated and then popped; releasing poo poo everywhere?
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Jun 13, 2017 00:37
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Aurubin posted:I really think this is the problem. What do you mean by credibility? What credibility do they have or want? Look at how the AHCA is being passed. Going to bat for him firing Mueller is so obviously corrupt it will hurt their standing with Republicans. Not with most republicans, but with a decent amount. It will burn them with everyone else. Firing Comey, watching how much that made things worse, then going right ahead and firing Mueller will convince Republicans there's really something bad there, bad enough to make firing two different investigators the better option for Trump. Something that bad is probably not going to stay buried when everyone knows its there, and when it comes out they want to say it was just Trump, not the entire Republican party. Really, they don't need him to last much longer than a year. That'll let them shove as much stuff through Congress as they're realistically going to get done. If Trump is hobbled or resigns, so be it - they'd rather have Pence anyway, they just can't have their fingerprints on the knife.
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Jun 13, 2017 00:39
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lol if you don't want trump to fire mueller and hire ken starr to finish the investigation
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Jun 13, 2017 00:40
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a solid point https://twitter.com/jdawsey1/status/874410357690904577
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Jun 13, 2017 00:41
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PhazonLink posted:How many trial balloons have they floated and then popped; releasing poo poo everywhere? A lot. Like the tweet evilweasel just posted says, Trump is impulsive and does whatever he wants in the moment, regardless of how many people tell him it's crazy. Maybe he'll flip out and do it again this time even if every sign says not to, who knows.
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Jun 13, 2017 00:43
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evilweasel posted:It's easy to make excuses for new things that have never happened before. The problem is that we have all agreed that firing a special prosecutor, because he's prosecuting you, is not ok. It's the exact thing that happened with Nixon. Because it's the exact thing that happened with Nixon, you can't find an excuse for it that isn't also saying the Saturday Night Massacre was ok. And that's how Republicans reacted to Nixon as well: they didn't immediately move to impeach him, they forced a new special counsel to inoculate themselves from his criminality while keeping him in office as long as possible. evilweasel posted:There was a worrying article on nymag.com that was basically arguing those representatives are making the calculation they're hosed with everyone but Trump's base, so instead of trying to avoid doing terrible things and moving to the center they're moving to the right to energize their base and get that sweet sweet dark PAC money. So basically as they get more worried, they'll get worse. The thing is, we are now living in a much more dramatically partisan world than Nixon's. And even at the depths after the Saturday Night Massacre, Nixon still had a 22% approval rating; right now it looks like Trump's floor is probably somewhere around the 30's. If he does fire Mueller, it's therefore by no means a given that the Republicans will all suddenly grow spines and consciences and appoint another special prosecutor to replace Mueller. And if they don't, we're then in uncharted new territory where the executive can literally do anything without fear of any repercussion until the next election. And voter suppression is already a thing, as have been physical assaults on the press . . . It was pointed out a few weeks ago, but there's a point at which it's to the authoritarian leader's advantage to just keep demanding more and more extreme loyalty tests, because the further all the other party members have already gone, the more committed they are to him. Each new heinous act they refuse to condemn is just one more loyalty pledge.
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Jun 13, 2017 00:44
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evilweasel posted:https://twitter.com/RepAdamSchiff/status/874406787293773824 https://twitter.com/KFILE/status/874409910980816896
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Jun 13, 2017 00:45
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:Also the cult in far cry 5 was shown to be super multicultural to make sure no one was shooting nazis like nazis complained Yeah, I just saw that. poo poo like that is getting pretty worriesome. There's already a substantial portion of White people who will happily defend the Confederacy on the grounds that it has everything to with "Southern" culture, except that whole slavery thing. Going to bat for Nazis from there is just a hop, skip and jump away.
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Jun 13, 2017 00:47
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:And if they don't, we're then in uncharted new territory where the executive can literally do anything without fear of any repercussion until the next election. And voter suppression is already a thing, as have been physical assaults on the press . . . and death threats against people running for offices.
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Jun 13, 2017 00:48
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And Trump ordered a stop to all investigations of right wing terror groups
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Jun 13, 2017 00:49
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evilweasel posted:https://twitter.com/RepAdamSchiff/status/874406787293773824
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Jun 13, 2017 00:49
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NoDamage posted:Wouldn't Republicans need to be on board with this? I look forward to McCain saying it is "deeply troubling" and then proceeding to vote no... Schiff is just trying to goad Trump into doing self-destructive things.
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Jun 13, 2017 00:51
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NoDamage posted:Wouldn't Republicans need to be on board with this? I look forward to McCain saying it is "deeply troubling" and then proceeding to vote no... McCain would vote yes. The bigger issue is if leadership would even allow a vote.
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Jun 13, 2017 00:51
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So I'm confused, can Trump personally fire Mueller alone or must have have a toady do it for him? I'm hearing conflicting things.
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Jun 13, 2017 00:51
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evilweasel posted:There was a worrying article on nymag.com that was basically arguing those representatives are making the calculation they're hosed with everyone but Trump's base, so instead of trying to avoid doing terrible things and moving to the center they're moving to the right to energize their base and get that sweet sweet dark PAC money. So basically as they get more worried, they'll get worse. I figured this was exactly what caused the shift in the senate on the AHCA.
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Jun 13, 2017 00:51
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Sinteres posted:McCain would vote yes. The bigger issue is if leadership would even allow a vote. Awfully confident that McCain has a spine still hiding in there somewhere, aren't ya
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Jun 13, 2017 00:51
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Tatsuta Age posted:Awfully confident that McCain has a spine still hiding in there somewhere, aren't ya He cares about the Russia investigation,and has nothing to lose. He's never going to be the bipartisan hero liberals want him to be, but he has a core set of interests that he actually cares about, and this relates to that.
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Jun 13, 2017 00:52
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Why do people think Mueller is on his way out?
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Jun 13, 2017 00:52
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Shimrra Jamaane posted:So I'm confused, can Trump personally fire Mueller alone or must have have a toady do it for him? I'm hearing conflicting things. DoJ regs say no. But he can (potentially, it's a point of judicial contention) unilaterally rescind them and fire anyone he wants.
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Jun 13, 2017 00:52
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Shimrra Jamaane posted:So I'm confused, can Trump personally fire Mueller alone or must have have a toady do it for him? I'm hearing conflicting things. With the current regulations, he must order the Attorney General (in this case, Rosenstein, since Sessions is "recused") to fire Mueller. He can instead, however, abolish the regulations themselves, then fire Mueller himself.
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Jun 13, 2017 00:53
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