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What is the best flav... you all know what this question is: This poll is closed. |
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|---|---|---|---|
| Labour |
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907 | 49.92% |
| Theresa May Team (Conservative) |
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48 | 2.64% |
| Liberal Democrats |
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31 | 1.71% |
| UKIP |
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13 | 0.72% |
| Plaid Cymru |
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25 | 1.38% |
| Green |
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22 | 1.21% |
| Scottish Socialist Party |
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12 | 0.66% |
| Scottish Conservative Party |
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1 | 0.06% |
| Scottish National Party |
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59 | 3.25% |
| Some Kind of Irish Unionist |
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4 | 0.22% |
| Alliance / Irish Nonsectarian |
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3 | 0.17% |
| Some Kind of Irish Nationalist |
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36 | 1.98% |
| Misc. Far Left Trots |
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35 | 1.93% |
| Misc. Far Right Fash |
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8 | 0.44% |
| Monster Raving Loony |
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49 | 2.70% |
| Space Navies Party |
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39 | 2.15% |
| Independent / Single Issue |
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2 | 0.11% |
| Can't Vote |
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188 | 10.35% |
| Won't Vote |
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8 | 0.44% |
| Spoiled Ballot |
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15 | 0.83% |
| Pissflaps |
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312 | 17.17% |
| Total: | 1817 votes | ||
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jabby posted:Maybe it's just me, but is anyone else sensing a real anger from people after this fire that wasn't there even during the terrorist attacks? For some reason I'm reminded of the Triangle Shirtwaist factory fire. Maybe because it fits the theme of 'we need a horrific loss of life to remind us that unfettered capitalism isn't good'. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triangle_Shirtwaist_Factory_fire
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Jun 15, 2017 00:45
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Newsnight has reported that the cladding used on this building was 'less fire resistant' than other types, and has been associated with fires elsewhere. Anyone involved in cutting costs, sitting on risk reports, or arguing against stricter fire codes should never be forgiven for this.
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Jun 15, 2017 00:45
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thecluckmeme posted:Correct me if I'm wrong but it seems a high rise built with a core like this should be fitted with sprinklers in main areas in the case of a fire spreading outside a flat, with obviously cladding that isn't going to serve as a wick to spread fire between floors. With the chimney effect of a core stairwell potentially acting as a chimney, would that help in any meaningful way or would the water output on any and all floors do anything to keep a fire from climbing? its way better to put the sprinklers in the individual units. it's plausible such a system could have stopped the fire from spreading to the exterior cladding.
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Jun 15, 2017 00:46
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jabby posted:Maybe it's just me, but is anyone else sensing a real anger from people after this fire that wasn't there even during the terrorist attacks? I've only really seen pure anger from one person (Outside of this thread) and that came as a bit of a surprise at first. Most people I know are still expressing sadness at the tragedy of it all and support/gratitude for the emergency services and local communities doing what they can to support the survivors. I think there may be more anger in the days to come if the media give more attention to the issues surrounding the complaints the tenants made regarding safety concerns (This started to pick up steam in the late afternoon) and some of the additional history others have posted in this thread such as the letter from the Kensington borough council legal services department posted earlier in the thread.
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Jun 15, 2017 00:51
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I'm so angry I don't even trust myself to discuss this with people because I feel like I'll become some kind of rage elemental.
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Jun 15, 2017 00:53
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I've even been getting a bit angry at some of the news coverage of "look what all these lovely people are doing to help!". gently caress your heartwarming narrative, I want those responsible for this punished now.
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Jun 15, 2017 00:59
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Redeye Flight posted:You could leave it up forever, like the churches left bombed out after the Blitz. A monument to why You Do Not loving Cut Emergency Services or Weaken Building Codes. lol if you think the haggling hasn't already started over that primo piece of vacant london real estate
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Jun 15, 2017 01:00
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Redeye Flight posted:You could leave it up forever, like the churches left bombed out after the Blitz. A monument to why You Do Not loving Cut Emergency Services or Weaken Building Codes. I've decided where we should move parliament to while it's undergoing work.
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Jun 15, 2017 01:02
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Jesus christ people inside were posting videos of pretty much their last moments.  http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-06-15/london-tower-fire-concerns-grow-for-missing-mother/8619234
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Jun 15, 2017 01:05
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Acaila posted:I've even been getting a bit angry at some of the news coverage of "look what all these lovely people are doing to help!". gently caress your heartwarming narrative, I want those responsible for this punished now. If it is as it may seem and various regulations and codes have been side stepped in order to get the job done on the cheap then yes I agree entirely that those responsible should be prosecuted to the fullest extent however, its good to show the support and efforts of local communities. Frankly I was disgusted by the BBC showing a family this evening staring up at the tower in tears, begging for their loved ones to be found alive. It was broadcast like some kind of bizarre empathy-but-not-really torture porn.
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Jun 15, 2017 01:05
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Synthbuttrange posted:Jesus christ people inside were posting videos of pretty much their last moments. Super thing to watch just before going to bed, that. Poor fuckers.
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Jun 15, 2017 01:14
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Synthbuttrange posted:Jesus christ people inside were posting videos of pretty much their last moments.
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Jun 15, 2017 01:15
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Yeah I'm not going to click that link.
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Jun 15, 2017 01:18
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WhiskeyWhiskers posted:Is Pissflaps Owen Smith? Check his dick
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Jun 15, 2017 01:18
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Lord of the Llamas posted:Yeah I'm not going to click that link. Nothing positive can come of watching it if you're not part of the investigation
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Jun 15, 2017 01:20
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There's not actually anything graphic in the video itself, it's just the creeping sense of dread which is of course made all the worse when you know the ending.
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Jun 15, 2017 01:22
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Lord of the Llamas posted:Yeah I'm not going to click that link.
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Jun 15, 2017 01:24
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I did. Don't.
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Jun 15, 2017 01:26
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thecluckmeme posted:Correct me if I'm wrong but it seems a high rise built with a core like this should be fitted with sprinklers in main areas in the case of a fire spreading outside a flat, with obviously cladding that isn't going to serve as a wick to spread fire between floors. With the chimney effect of a core stairwell potentially acting as a chimney, would that help in any meaningful way or would the water output on any and all floors do anything to keep a fire from climbing? Sprinklers are always best served when they are spread in every conceivable location where the fire could start. This is because an individual sprinkler does not need to put out much water to control a small incipient stage fire. Once a fire gets to appreciable size the amount of water you need to slow its growth increases exponentially. For example a sprinkler head puts out around 15 gallons of water a minute, and if there is a sprinkler head at the location where the fire starts almost all fires are controlled or extinguished with 4 or less heads activating, so the fire is controlled by ~60 gallons of water a minute. If there is no sprinkler the fire will continue to grow, and if there is quick response from a fire service, they will hopefully arrive before the fire has spread beyond the first room or two. At this stage the fire can usually be fought or controlled with one or two small diameter fire hoses (1.5") that put out ~75 gallons a minute each. Fires of this size are still relatively easy to handle for a trained fire fighter. However if the fire continues to grow and the fuel load starts to rapidly expand then you have to start attempting to control the fire with many MANY large diameter fire hose lines (3"). These can output over 250 gallons a minute each, and in fires like this can in many ways have no effect at all. When controlling a fire spread literally every second counts, and this is why sprinklers can be so effective. They will go off usually within a minute of the fire catching onto a major fuel source, and at that stage the fire is really easy to control. A separate issue to consider about why the building is still burning, and may for many days, is the ability for the fire service to even get any sort of water pressure up to the highest floors. 26 stories is a hell of a lot of gravity to overcome when you are relying on ground level fire truck pumpers to supply you water up 1000's of feet of fire hose. To bring this back around to your question about fire protection schemes for a building core this is where "Standpipe Systems" come into play. A standpipe system is basically a large diameter pipe column that runs up the entire height of the building inside the fire stairwell. Each floor has a fire hose connection that the fire service can tie into. This allows for a much more rapid attack to any high level fire as you are saving tons of time of not having to lug up 1000' feet of fire hose through the stairwell just to reach the level the fire is on. Instead the pumper truck just connects to the standpipe from an exterior connection on the ground floor and pumps the water up the pre-installed system. Now the firefighter on the fire floor can use a small and more importantly light hose to attack the fire using the stair tower as their base of operation. I have no way of knowing if this building has a standpipe system or not, but the lack of one would have inhibited the fire fighters ability to fight the fire early on when it was only on a floor or two, and will now greatly slow down the ability to put out remnant fires on the high floors. Even with a standpipe system in the building, getting water up ~260' of building while still having enough pressure to safely approach a fire might be beyond the capability of the fire pumpers at the disposal of the fire service. SpaceCadetBob fucked around with this message at 01:48 on Jun 15, 2017 |
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Jun 15, 2017 01:32
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I hope people post good links. As opposed to the links with screaming children and also people making their last YouTube vid before they die horribly. That is my request re:fire chat.
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Jun 15, 2017 01:33
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WhiskeyWhiskers posted:
Or just be in the wrong place at the wrong time for a driveby.
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Jun 15, 2017 02:01
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Hey just wanted to say thanks for metaphorically popping across the pond to make these good posts on the subject. It's a very little thing in a very big tragedy but it helps those of us watching helplessly from around the country just to get some knowledge of what might have happened to allow this to go so wrong.
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Jun 15, 2017 02:07
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the Sun gets in on this pitchfork trainquote:Couple whose company were responsible for cladding at tragic Grenfell Tower hide away in £1million home no link because it's the Sun and Katie "final solution" Hopkins too at her new Mail spot too quote:KATIE HOPKINS: Last night countless of our capital's poorest burned to death in a man-made Roman Candle in one of Britain's richest boroughs. We can't blame terrorists. It wasn't an act of God. But someone was to blame. And they need to go to jail no link because it's the DM they're both carefully avoiding saying who they think is at fault, but are quite willing to provide suggestions
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Jun 15, 2017 02:08
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I'm soberly pleased to see that the fact this was foreseen and warned of, with the local residents repeatedly and in increasingly strident tones trying to get it fixed, has made the front pages. The blame may end up misdirected or misapportioned in the end but at least national outrage means there's a chance some of the right heads will roll.
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Jun 15, 2017 02:11
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Mugsbaloney posted:I live next to the grand lodge in Glasgow and some fucker practices penny whistle without fail at 9 every week night and combined with the weekend marches it is driving me loving insane If you're practicing the whistle at obnoxious hours you need to stick some blue tack in the vent or you're an awful human being. gently caress up a note on the high octaves and it's wine glass shattering levels of bad.
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Jun 15, 2017 02:12
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Mister Adequate posted:I'm soberly pleased to see that the fact this was foreseen and warned of, with the local residents repeatedly and in increasingly strident tones trying to get it fixed, has made the front pages. The blame may end up misdirected or misapportioned in the end but at least national outrage means there's a chance some of the right heads will roll. there's a claim on Wikipedia that a resident expressed concern that the cladding was installed with wooden battens, but the source link points to a live news page that doesn't have such a claim
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Jun 15, 2017 02:16
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Mister Adequate posted:Hey just wanted to say thanks for metaphorically popping across the pond to make these good posts on the subject. It's a very little thing in a very big tragedy but it helps those of us watching helplessly from around the country just to get some knowledge of what might have happened to allow this to go so wrong. I'm glad my posts are being found useful. Building fire safety is oddly my passion (and career), so when these kind of events happen it really draws into clear focus on why people in my field do the work we do. Today my company basically got no work done as we spent the whole day sifting through news on the fire, and just reaching out and talking to people about it. When the Oakland warehouse fire happened here last winter it was the same for us. After that fire I spoke to over a dozen fire officials in my area that were completely in shock over how a fire that bad could happen. It's a sad truth that it often takes tragedies like this before real reforms can be made.
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Jun 15, 2017 02:35
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thanks too, your posts are great dyou think the cladding is at fault? the papers seem to be coalescing on it
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Jun 15, 2017 02:41
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Given that it's been a problem that's happened around the world and it looks like it's the exterior that spread the fire, it's hard not to think that. 
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Jun 15, 2017 02:46
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It's obviously the loving cladding
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Jun 15, 2017 02:47
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that's a bit of trouble, if so, given how many new builds are covered in the things
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Jun 15, 2017 02:48
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The problem with it is that until a very short while ago, there were no safety standards for the things. Fire resistance, what?
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Jun 15, 2017 02:50
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SpaceCadetBob posted:I'm glad my posts are being found useful. Building fire safety is oddly my passion (and career), so when these kind of events happen it really draws into clear focus on why people in my field do the work we do. Today my company basically got no work done as we spent the whole day sifting through news on the fire, and just reaching out and talking to people about it. Have you considered starting an ask thread?
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Jun 15, 2017 02:52
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The tough part is that frequently when a fire causes a massive loss of life there will be many contributing factors that create a perfect storm leading to catastrophic failure. Obviously the photos we've all seen of literal waterfalls of fire on the outside of the building point pretty hard at the cladding as a huge factor in why the fire spread so quickly. But you have to also look at more subtle factors that may have also contributed to people getting trapped and not being able to escape. Things like fire rated doors that should always be closed being propped open, alarm notification systems not working or inadequately installed, or improper storage of combustibles inside the fire stair. I could go on, but basically it usually takes more than one point of failure for such incidents to happen. Some of those pictures just posted above were also big rear end fires, but didn't have massive loss of life because these sort of compounding failures did not occur. Discendo Vox posted:Have you considered starting an ask thread? edit: I'm reading now that the fire climbed the outside of the building, all 20 odd stories from the ignition level in only 15 minutes. The fire service never stood a chance at getting that under control. SpaceCadetBob fucked around with this message at 03:17 on Jun 15, 2017 |
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Jun 15, 2017 03:02
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I deleted this post a few times but...here it goes. I really hope the UK uses this as an opportunity to implement a national framework for disaster response. It's already part of the way there with the Gold, Silver, Bronze system for first responders. In this case, the council wouldn't try to find people temporary and long-term housing in isolation and all at once. There'd already be general plans in place with the different governmental and non-governmental agencies. They'd agree to work in conjunction with an emergency operations center. They'd state how they would help in a disaster and how they'd prepare for disasters ahead of time. When a disaster hit, an emergency operations center would be set up. It would request the help and it would coordinate everyone's efforts to prevent gaps or duplications of effort. These plans would be made on local, regional, and national levels. In this instance, the UK Red Cross could agree to have places lined up that'd agree to be temporary shelters. So when a disaster hit the RC could activate one of those shelters, set up cots to sleep on, and otherwise get people out of the cold. The UK equivalent of the Southern Baptists could agree to provide hot food for people at such a shelter. The Oxfam charity shops could provide vouchers for clothing. There'd be roles for partner agencies in the days after too. The Catholic Charities and local homeless prevention services could provide rent assistance once things settled down and people started looking for new housing. Local government agencies could help people find new work if the disaster caused those people to lose their jobs. And so on. This approach has had problems with larger scale disasters where thousands of people were impacted. And even a small disaster will take hours for the partner agencies to get a shelter open, get food cooking, get clothes on people's backs. But I've seen it work for a fire that displaced 78 people and know it's worked for even larger responses.
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Jun 15, 2017 05:06
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communism bitch posted:Have you got a snooker ball and an old sports sock? No seagalling I'm afraid- I just stand at my window topless and flex as they pass by. This kills the march.
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Jun 15, 2017 05:08
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Gonzo McFee posted:
Only people on DLA are very disabled kiddies you cretin.
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Jun 15, 2017 06:24
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ronya posted:that's a bit of trouble, if so, given how many new builds are covered in the things 1 tower in melbourne has already had a fire as a result of it and there are 170 more buildings that use it so who knows how bad it could be here
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Jun 15, 2017 06:46
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Someone mentioned earlier that a tenant had said he saw them use wooden beams as bracing for the padding. I can't find anything in that but if true, would the carbon help the aluminum act as thermite?
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Jun 15, 2017 06:48
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Demiurge4 posted:Someone mentioned earlier that a tenant had said he saw them use wooden beams as bracing for the padding. I can't find anything in that but if true, would the carbon help the aluminum act as thermite? I think ronya said it was on Wikipedia with a citation to a live news broadcast so take it with a pinch of salt.
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Jun 15, 2017 06:55
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