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Nessus posted:In TFA it's pretty much just VWOOM - *psssh* WOOM and they're there. They have the same issue with the Starkiller base gun. It isn't like you need a TON, but like, Star Trek Beyond managed to do this. It's the exact same issue that trek 09 and Into Darkness had - for some reason JJ is just incapable of dealing with space as having scale and distance.
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Jul 8, 2017 09:24
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The Fuzzy Hulk posted:I think it is funny that some random planet wanted to charge everyone to use the wormhole just because it was around their system. Not if he had an armed guard on his property you wouldn't.
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Jul 8, 2017 12:11
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It takes enough time to get to earth from DS9 that Sisko is very surprised to see O'Brien there. poo poo, DS9 is hours away from Bajor.
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Jul 8, 2017 12:32
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feedmegin posted:Not if he had an armed guard on his property you wouldn't. Just because we've moved beyond petty things like conflict and property doesn't mean we won't defend our god-given wormhole or our right to earn a non-existent buck 
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Jul 8, 2017 12:37
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Blade_of_tyshalle posted:poo poo, DS9 is hours away from Bajor. Yeah but that's by impulse shuttle right? The defiant could warp there quick like?
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Jul 8, 2017 12:48
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I guess Bajor is outside transporter range, since they're always talking about taking the shuttle rather than just beaming there. Apparently the shuttle takes 3 hours, while a runabout does it in 2 hours. Bajor is 52 light years from Earth, and according to other people who have done the math, would take between 10-11 days and 18 days, depending on warp speed.
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Jul 8, 2017 12:55
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MikeJF posted:It's the exact same issue that trek 09 and Into Darkness had - for some reason JJ is just incapable of dealing with space as having scale and distance. We have to remember that JJ decided transporters now working across star systems was a good thing to add to the setting, so I have to assume he has a grudge against the concept of distance in general.
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Jul 8, 2017 13:56
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The_Doctor posted:I guess Bajor is outside transporter range, since they're always talking about taking the shuttle rather than just beaming there. Apparently the shuttle takes 3 hours, while a runabout does it in 2 hours.
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Jul 8, 2017 14:49
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FlamingLiberal posted:Initially the station is over Bajor but it seems like the wormhole is far away in the same system. It's a bit of a ways out but not far by Trek terms. The wormhole is in the Denorios belt, which divides the Bajor system in half, more or less. Because nobody really knew it was there until "Emissary", there was no reason for the station to be out there -- being a Cardassian station, it was orbiting Bajor to support the occupation. That said, when they do move the station out of orbit towards the wormhole, O'Brien says it's 160 million km and would take two months at the speed the station is capable of (of course he deflector-magics it there before the next commercial break but oh well). That's about 1 AU, so definitely longer than you'd want to travel on impulse. e: incidentally this implies that DS9 is capable of moving at like 50,000 m/s! skasion fucked around with this message at 15:11 on Jul 8, 2017 |
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Jul 8, 2017 15:07
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Spoeank posted:Star Wars has always had absolutely zero sense of how long space travel takes. It's always "time to go to x!" Hyperdrives are apparently really ultra super duper mega fast. They're rather consistent with that, really. In terms of the sequence of events, everywhere is only a few hours away. Alderaan and Yavin were only a couple hours apart, because Vader told us so. Maul left Coruscant and got all the way out to Tatooine while Qui-Gon, Anakin, and the rest went to bed for the night. The Rebel fleet got from Sullust to Endor in the time it took Han and Leia to infiltrate the shield generator.
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Jul 8, 2017 16:35
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Sash! posted:Hyperdrives are apparently really ultra super duper mega fast. They're rather consistent with that, really. In terms of the sequence of events, everywhere is only a few hours away. 
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Jul 8, 2017 17:02
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skasion posted:being a Cardassian station, it was orbiting Bajor to support the occupation. Dumber than that: it was a slave labour mineral refinery. They moved raw ore into planetary orbit to refine it on a space station instead of putting the refinery on the ground where energy is cheap, security is easier and pollution concerns are zero. It's stupid from economic, engineering and military points of view. Also, yeah, Trek's sense of distance has always been awful. I remember watching the Enterprise pilot where Archer says that he's going to take his brand new NX ship that can barely make OLD (TOS-scale) warp 4.5 and he's going to fly to Q'onos - the capital world of a huge empire whose border 200 years later will be adjacent to the far border of what will be Federation space - in four days. It should have taken longer than four days to get to Vulcan, let alone anywhere else. But even back in TOS, Kirk could either speak to Starfleet Command in real time, or send a subspace message that would take three weeks to arrive. There was never anything in between.
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Jul 8, 2017 23:43
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Why were they even refining things? They have replicators and transporters that can remove people's weapons and parasites and whatever. Beam the raw material up, rematerialize the parts you want and send the rest back.
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Jul 8, 2017 23:58
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The Cardassians were recovering from a multi-planet economic collapse with grim state-controlled industrial expansion.
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Jul 9, 2017 00:02
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Cojawfee posted:Why were they even refining things? They have replicators and transporters that can remove people's weapons and parasites and whatever. Beam the raw material up, rematerialize the parts you want and send the rest back. There was a whole TNG episode where they tried that. It was the one with the robots that became sapient, but not the one where the robots looked like people
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Jul 9, 2017 00:31
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shadok posted:Also, yeah, Trek's sense of distance has always been awful. I remember watching the Enterprise pilot where Archer says that he's going to take his brand new NX ship that can barely make OLD (TOS-scale) warp 4.5 and he's going to fly to Q'onos - the capital world of a huge empire whose border 200 years later will be adjacent to the far border of what will be Federation space - in four days. It should have taken longer than four days to get to Vulcan, let alone anywhere else. The script said four weeks, but the director changed it on-set.
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Jul 9, 2017 01:21
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I'm rewatching DS9 and I'm on Empok Nor. It has the best example of "let's meet in space very close and pointing upwards" because you know the station is abandoned due to it being crooked in space when they arrive.
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Jul 9, 2017 02:23
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Martha Stewart Undying posted:Yeah but that's by impulse shuttle right? The defiant could warp there quick like? I think one of those very rarely seen/remembered Trek rules is that you don't go to warp within a solar system so that's why it takes so long.
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Jul 9, 2017 02:40
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Kibayasu posted:I think one of those very rarely seen/remembered Trek rules is that you don't go to warp within a solar system so that's why it takes so long. There's an entire book about it! Sorta kinda.
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Jul 9, 2017 02:41
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Cojawfee posted:Why were they even refining things? They have replicators and transporters that can remove people's weapons and parasites and whatever. Beam the raw material up, rematerialize the parts you want and send the rest back. Arglebargle III posted:The Cardassians were recovering from a multi-planet economic collapse with grim state-controlled industrial expansion. Also add to that the implication throughout DS9 that Cardassian tech isn't to to snuff compared to Federation tech. Their transporters and replicators simply might not be able to do it efficiently. Come to think of it, the Cardassian Union always did seem to be a hair's breadth from falling apart. The last time I watched "Chain of Command," I was surprised to hear Gul Madred talking about living through the equivalent of bread riots on Cardassia Prime as a child. Even counting in the wonky ways DS9 "established" Cardassian lifespans, that'd still put his childhood somewhere between the later TOS movies and the early 24th century, which really puts it into perspective. Were things ever that bad on Qo'nos, even after Praxis blew up?
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Jul 9, 2017 02:47
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In the show and movies sense, Praxis blows up, the Khitomer Accords come of it, and by the time TNG rolls around the Klingons are back to being war-mongering honor fetishists, with no real impact on the empire, environmentally or otherwise. It doesn't really come up again, except apparently to get mentioned in a Voyager episode. On the other hand, Praxis gets used in Trek books a ton as a catalyst for various dumb things, including alternate universe Klingon-Federation hellwars, and all kinds of stuff. Orv fucked around with this message at 02:57 on Jul 9, 2017 |
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Jul 9, 2017 02:54
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Orv posted:In the show and movies sense, Praxis blows up, the Khitomer Accords come of it, and by the time TNG rolls around the Klingons are back to being war-mongering honor fetishists, with no real impact on the empire, environmentally or otherwise. It doesn't really come up again, except apparently to get mentioned in a Voyager episode. The movie Praxis blows up in came out several seasons into TNG, well after TNG Klingons had been established. So it was really an awkward choice by the movie, not something the show chose to ignore.
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Jul 9, 2017 03:33
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Marshal Radisic posted:Come to think of it, the Cardassian Union always did seem to be a hair's breadth from falling apart. The last time I watched "Chain of Command," I was surprised to hear Gul Madred talking about living through the equivalent of bread riots on Cardassia Prime as a child. Even counting in the wonky ways DS9 "established" Cardassian lifespans, that'd still put his childhood somewhere between the later TOS movies and the early 24th century, which really puts it into perspective. Were things ever that bad on Qo'nos, even after Praxis blew up? Who knows, famines are often political or ideological in part. The Great Chinese Famine that killed 30 million people was totally avoidable, but the political apparatus was so dysfunctional they refused to admit there was a problem and open the (fully stocked) granaries. Ireland was a major food exporter right through the great famine. The Holodomer was intentional. Do you trust the Cardassian state we saw depicted in the show to respond as effectively as their technology might allow? In fact the stories we hear about the failure of the civilian government and the necessity of the military coup all come from interested parties. Do you trust the Cardassian state to give you a truthful account of political decisions made two generations ago?
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Jul 9, 2017 03:35
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All I'm saying is when the Founders were in charge, the wormhole ran on time
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Jul 9, 2017 04:12
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eth0.n posted:The movie Praxis blows up in came out several seasons into TNG, well after TNG Klingons had been established. So it was really an awkward choice by the movie, not something the show chose to ignore. Oh yeah, huh. Somehow I always forget that the TOS movies were that late in the day.
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Jul 9, 2017 04:18
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Martha Stewart Undying posted:Prophet Sisko is prolly the Sisko we saw in that episode he got That's just Avery Brooks.
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Jul 9, 2017 05:37
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Kibayasu posted:I think one of those very rarely seen/remembered Trek rules is that you don't go to warp within a solar system so that's why it takes so long. But then of course in ST '09 the Enterprise warps not only directly into the solar system, but directly into Saturn's upper atmosphere, so apparently Tom Hardy Romulan hosed up the laws of physics in that timeline.
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Jul 9, 2017 05:39
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Knormal posted:Yep, in the episode where the Bashir Changeling gets exposed he steals a runabout and tries to blow up the system's sun, the Defiant has to warp within the system to catch up with him, and they make mention of what risky move it is. That DS9 episode is the total outlier. There are multiple examples in TNG that I can remember of where they engage warp drive while still orbiting a planet. I'm certain there were DS9 examples of in-system warping as well. It's like that one bullshit Voyager episode where they supposedly can't turn while at warp drive (??????), and I'm certain that multiple people pointed out to the writers "uhhh, this directly contradicts multiple previous episodes" and the writers were just too loving lazy to try to rework the script because almost none of them gave a poo poo about the show. Bryan Fuller's on record as saying that most of the Voyager staff were really not happy about the fact that they were working on a Star Trek show.
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Jul 9, 2017 06:01
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Knormal posted:ST '09 Knormal posted:Tom Hardy Romulan Speaking of hosed up timelines. 
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Jul 9, 2017 06:02
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Farmer Crack-rear end posted:That DS9 episode is the total outlier. There are multiple examples in TNG that I can remember of where they engage warp drive while still orbiting a planet. I'm certain there were DS9 examples of in-system warping as well. I don't think the problem was warping while in a system, that's always been possible, it's just that, for whatever reason, nobody in Star Trek warps from one point in a system to another point in the same system. I assume there's some kind of "minimum distance" for warp drives that makes it so warping to another point in the same system isn't recommended.
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Jul 9, 2017 06:09
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I suspect that pointing your warp drive straight at a star is generally a bad idea. Normally, you're so far away from your destination that your path is completely empty, but for the DS9 episode in particular, I suspect the difference between succeeding and burning was like a very very very tiny fraction of a second at warp speeds
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Jul 9, 2017 06:20
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I think it's more that if you spin up that thing, you can't just stop it right away. So if you fire it up to go from Earth to Pluto, you're gonna hit Alpha Centauri by the time you come out of warp. I don't think they have the capacity for "microjumps" if you will.
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Jul 9, 2017 06:22
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quote:Bryan Fuller's on record as saying that most of the Voyager staff were really not happy about the fact that they were working on a Star Trek show. That makes me imagine one of the characters from Frasier going "ugh, space drivel". I think there was an episode with a character ashamed to write/act for a space opera-type show
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Jul 9, 2017 06:24
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WampaLord posted:I think it's more that if you spin up that thing, you can't just stop it right away. So if you fire it up to go from Earth to Pluto, you're gonna hit Alpha Centauri by the time you come out of warp. Except when the Hathaway did exactly that in the episode Peak Performance: warp one for just under two seconds, thanks to Wesley cheating at the war game and sneaking some antimatter on board. (Two seconds at warp one wouldn't even get you all the way to the Moon.)
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Jul 9, 2017 06:28
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According to the aforementioned book, it's engaging warp drive in a gravity well that's a problem. Presumably warping into a gravity well is fine, because they go directly from travel to orbit all the time.
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Jul 9, 2017 06:30
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Has ejecting the warp core ever worked in a core breach emergency? I know they ejected it in JJ Trek, but that wasn't a breach.
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Jul 9, 2017 06:35
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Beachcomber posted:Has ejecting the warp core ever worked in a core breach emergency? I know they ejected it in JJ Trek, but that wasn't a breach. I asked that a while back and I think the vague consensus was not really. It's in the rule book somewhere. Eject core, then figure out actual problem. Orv fucked around with this message at 06:40 on Jul 9, 2017 |
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Jul 9, 2017 06:36
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The ejection system is literally always offline.
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Jul 9, 2017 06:53
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Grand Fromage posted:The ejection system is literally always offline. At least the holodeck safeties have occasionally been shown to stay active for an entire session.
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Jul 9, 2017 06:55
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WampaLord posted:I think it's more that if you spin up that thing, you can't just stop it right away. So if you fire it up to go from Earth to Pluto, you're gonna hit Alpha Centauri by the time you come out of warp. They also warp directly from DS9 to Bajor all the time.
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Jul 9, 2017 06:57
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