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Hugh can take one for the team, just like when Troi holomurders Geordi during training.
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Jul 27, 2017 19:49
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Everything I hear about Janeway makes him sound psychotic.
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Jul 27, 2017 19:54
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She was so badly written, Kate Mulgrew basically went "gently caress it" and decided to play her as being bipolar. I can respect that.
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Jul 27, 2017 19:55
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Mulgrew saved the character, no two ways about it.
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Jul 27, 2017 19:56
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My wife started orange is the new black and I always peep over any time Kate is on the screen. She is real good. Voyager was so bad despite so many talented people involved.
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Jul 27, 2017 19:59
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Baronjutter posted:This is why Pale Moonlight is a good episode because it shows a generally upstanding starfleet officer basically choosing the other path. When Sisko did what he did it had a lot of gravity and it affected him. When Janeway though flagrantly violated everything starfleet stands for she seems to revel in it. Ironically, the example cited earlier in this discussion, of Tuvix, is the rare case that disagrees with that. She makes a call, takes ownership of it and even pulls the trigger herself when the Doctor objects, and she's clearly shaken by it afterwards but can't let the crew see that doubt because she's the one in charge.
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Jul 27, 2017 19:59
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Gaz-L posted:and she's clearly shaken by it afterwards Shaken by it so much it never comes up ever again
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Jul 27, 2017 20:02
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Gaz-L posted:Ironically, the example cited earlier in this discussion, of Tuvix, is the rare case that disagrees with that. She makes a call, takes ownership of it and even pulls the trigger herself when the Doctor objects, and she's clearly shaken by it afterwards but can't let the crew see that doubt because she's the one in charge. And then it's never mentioned again. efb  Ok, that's not the fault of the episode itself, and it doesn't conflict with Janeway being nuts, either. She still wanted to be a proper Starfleet Captain through it all - except maybe in that one episode where she locked herself in her room for a month or whatever
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Jul 27, 2017 20:03
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tigersklaw posted:Shaken by it so much it never comes up ever again By now, you'd think most folks would accept that the majority of Trek isn't serialized to the point where most things are brought up later on.
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Jul 27, 2017 20:12
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tigersklaw posted:Shaken by it so much it never comes up ever again Technology has allowed us to move beyond such petty things like trauma Or maybe Neelix's morale officer duties are just that good
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Jul 27, 2017 20:17
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MisterBibs posted:By now, you'd think most folks would accept that the majority of Trek isn't serialized to the point where most things are brought up later on. Yes, but many episodes bring up things that are significant alterations to the world the characters live in, especially in TNG, so it's dumb that they don't get brought up again. The writing did it to itself.
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Jul 27, 2017 20:17
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MisterBibs posted:By now, you'd think most folks would accept that the majority of Trek isn't serialized to the point where most things are brought up later on. Weird how they keep bringing up that Voyager is making progress towards Earth, then.
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Jul 27, 2017 20:22
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MisterBibs posted:Hugh was as much a "person" as Bub from Day Of The Dead was. Bub was trained to say ullo auhnt uhleeca, Hugh was trained to say its a person.
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Jul 27, 2017 20:35
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WampaLord posted:Weird how they keep bringing up that Voyager is making progress towards Earth, then. Plus, their torpedo count - to say nothing of shuttles! I can only justify this as "We gave up the need to ration around season 2 because we found enough stuff to replicate everything" which would have been pretty much completely solved as an issue by a single line of dialog, but here we are
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Jul 27, 2017 20:36
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Orv posted:Yes, but many episodes bring up things that are significant alterations to the world the characters live in, especially in TNG, so it's dumb that they don't get brought up again. The writing did it to itself. TNG didn't really start doing that significantly until later seasons, especially the final one. Sure, there were episodes that called back this or that, or have sequel episodes, but by and large you could watch TNG randomly. The same is generally true of Voyager as well, especially if you didn't let the Kes half mix with the Seven half. Complaining they didn't bring up Tuvix again is like asking why they never mentioned Dowd Guy again: it's the gimmick of the episode, and there's no reason to bring up earlier GoTEs. Nessus posted:At a certain point, you can extend this argument to everyone, though. I guess, but we're talking explicitly about Space Robot Zombies. Once infected, never the same. The closest the Federation got was Picard (with its twin elephants of Main Lead Contract Dispute and Haven't-Nailed-Down-What-These-Guys-Are-Yet) and Seven (who had a bunch of episodes in which the attempt risked the crew). MisterBibs fucked around with this message at 20:50 on Jul 27, 2017 |
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Jul 27, 2017 20:43
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The Bloop posted:Plus, their torpedo count - to say nothing of shuttles! F: Forget you mentioned there was a replicator problem in the first place D: Bring the replicator problem up once or twice but never offer a solution to it and forget to mention that it's fixed C: Bring up the replicator problem with an easy fix that's taken care of in one episode B: Detail why the replicators don't work but everything else on the ship works just fine and have it make an impact A: Detail the problem with the replicators and have it be a recurring problem that severely hampers the effectiveness of the ship A+: Detail the replicator problem, have it be recurring, and have the engineers construct a quirky work-around system that barely functions and acts like a dangerously explosive bootleg whiskey still
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Jul 27, 2017 20:47
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MisterBibs posted:
No it's not. Tuvok and Neelix have to live with knowing that someone was murdered so they could live. Janeway has to live with knowing she did it. Others, especially The Doctor have to deal with the fact that their captain ordered a murder. This is not at all the same as "hey remember that Uxbridge guy who could genocide by being angry? Maybe we should drop a changeling on him"
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Jul 27, 2017 20:47
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The Bloop posted:No it's not. Again, we're talking about a franchise that is, by and large, episodic. In a largely serialized show, sure, all that stuff would be in play. But given that each episode is (largely) self contained, that stuff about dealing-with-last-episodes-gimmick simply has no place outside a specific sequel episode. Maybe a brief callback if it's important to the next episode's gimmick (say, The Offspring referencing A Measure Of A Man), but otherwise, nah.
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Jul 27, 2017 20:55
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MisterBibs posted:I guess, but we're talking explicitly about Space Robot Zombies. Once infected, never the same. The closest the Federation got was Picard (with its twin elephants of Main Lead Contract Dispute and Haven't-Nailed-Down-What-These-Guys-Are-Yet) and Seven (who had a bunch of episodes in which the attempt risked the crew).
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Jul 27, 2017 20:57
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Nessus posted:So you're saying, Borg can be individuals, but only if they're attractive actors with high salaries? Basically. Main leads get to be the exception to the rule by virtue of their status as Main Leads. Like I said, we almost had Picard meet the objectively correct Borg Choice (deflector dish to the dome), had Stewart not agreed to terms. The ensign in First Contact begging for Picard's help doesn't get rescued, he gets phasered. Vvv: Good examples. One group re-collectives, the other few that get close get blown up. MisterBibs fucked around with this message at 21:08 on Jul 27, 2017 |
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Jul 27, 2017 21:01
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I hate to use examples from Voyager but there was also that colony Chakotay found of ex-borg. Though they did sort of re-collective themselves. There's also the unimatrix zero stuff where a bunch of borg managed to be freed from the collective. Then the queen blew up the ships they were on.
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Jul 27, 2017 21:03
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The idea that borg can't be saved and can't be turned back into People requires such a willful misreading of the episodes and movies they're in that I'm astonished even someone in the Something Awful Star Trek thread could get it so wrong
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Jul 27, 2017 21:07
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Here's a hint: Picard gleefully killing borgified crew members in First Contact is portrayed as a pretty unambiguously bad thing in the second half of the movie
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Jul 27, 2017 21:08
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cheetah7071 posted:The idea that borg can't be saved and can't be turned back into People requires such a willful misreading of the episodes and movies they're in that I'm astonished even someone in the Something Awful Star Trek thread could get it so wrong MisterBibs
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Jul 27, 2017 21:08
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Baronjutter posted:MisterBibs A poster so wrong he got called out on stream 
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Jul 27, 2017 21:09
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cheetah7071 posted:The idea that borg can't be saved and can't be turned back into People requires such a willful misreading of the episodes and movies they're in that I'm astonished even someone in the Something Awful Star Trek thread could get it so wrong It's MisterBibs. Being wrong is his superpower.
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Jul 27, 2017 21:11
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Thinking Borg can be people (against what the show and movies teach us), and thinking RLM's discussion was more than Not My Star Wars. Fitting and accurate. cheetah7071 posted:The idea that borg can't be saved and can't be turned back into People requires such a willful misreading of the episodes and movies they're in that I'm astonished even someone in the Something Awful Star Trek thread could get it so wrong This discussion started because the crew of the Enterprise misread their pet Borg as being not a Borg. It's why the next time it's brought up in the series, it's in a "what is wrong with you, you guys hosed up" context. Even Seven was bluntly honest about herself. She's Borg. The tragedy of her character is that she can never not be Borg.
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Jul 27, 2017 21:14
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MisterBibs posted:Again, we're talking about a franchise that is, by and large, episodic. In a largely serialized show, sure, all that stuff would be in play. But given that each episode is (largely) self contained, that stuff about dealing-with-last-episodes-gimmick simply has no place outside a specific sequel episode. Maybe a brief callback if it's important to the next episode's gimmick (say, The Offspring referencing A Measure Of A Man), but otherwise, nah. Well no poo poo that it wasn't going to happen, but my response is that the crew dealing with a murderous captain or their own complicity is different from that time we found a new omnipotent being last week. Also, the very PREMISE of Voyager was serialization both with the primary plot of getting home and the secondary one of the Maquis crew merging with the Starfleet crew. They shouldn't have wasted either of those premises on TNG2 Kazon Boogalo
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Jul 27, 2017 21:15
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"Seek out new life and new civilizations" But if we don't find that life to be sufficiently individualistic, we'll wipe them out while justifying it by comparing them to mosquitoes and zombies.
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Jul 27, 2017 21:23
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The Bloop posted:Well no poo poo that it wasn't going to happen, but my response is that the crew dealing with a murderous captain or their own complicity is different from that time we found a new omnipotent being last week. They aren't, though. Gimmick of the episode, the stuff you don't generally call back to. The Bloop posted:Also, the very PREMISE of Voyager was serialization both with the primary plot of getting home and the secondary one of the Maquis crew merging with the Starfleet crew. They shouldn't have wasted either of those premises on TNG2 Kazon Boogalo Voyager, from minute one, was designed with the intent of being TNG2. DS9 was quickly falling down in the ratings after a record-high pilot, and the folks in charge understood that the only chance they had was to go back to the well if they wanted any chance of Trek being successful again. It failed because by the time Voyager rolled around, the audiences that made TNG so popular were simply done with Trek. Paradoxically, while it failed, it's still one of the Treks that your average person kinda knows about, so it has that going for it. MisterBibs fucked around with this message at 21:46 on Jul 27, 2017 |
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Jul 27, 2017 21:40
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Yeah of the 90s Treks, Voyager is the one non Trek fans tend to like best, for some reason.
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Jul 27, 2017 21:51
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MisterBibs posted:This discussion started because the crew of the Enterprise misread their pet Borg as being not a Borg. It's why the next time it's brought up in the series, it's in a "what is wrong with you, you guys hosed up" context.
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Jul 27, 2017 21:53
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Xibanya posted:Yeah of the 90s Treks, Voyager is the one non Trek fans tend to like best, for some reason. Boobs. I remember when Voyager was on a ton of dudes who weren't really into trek before got into that show once 7 arrived. I used to get phone calls from a family friend my dad's age after every episode asking me to explain what happened. He didn't have a hard time with the scify concepts, it was that the writing was so bad he thought he missed something.
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Jul 27, 2017 21:54
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8one6 posted:Right. They were called soap operas because back in the radio days they existed to basically fill time between soap commercials. "TV exists to sell toothpaste." - Gene Roddenberry
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Jul 27, 2017 22:02
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Xibanya posted:Yeah of the 90s Treks, Voyager is the one non Trek fans tend to like best, for some reason. It's because while nobody was watching in great numbers, if they did stumble across Trek it was either DS9 (which you could've honestly not realized it's Trek, or realized it's Trek and turned away because of it), or one that everyone talked about because that Hot Girl was in it, and you can recognize it as Trek because every wall is grey and there's a grey spaceship and they go to place to place. So when Trek collectively want to show up on casual Trek fan's radar, they draw from the wells of TOS, TNG, and Voyager. Gaz-L posted:Huh, so how does it feel watching 4 seasons of Voyager while literally vomiting with rage every time they don't instantly murder Jeri Ryan? I had no problem with it. Like I said, they hammered home that it's a Data-like situation where she'll never be Not Borg. Because, c'mon, she's a Borg. You can't undo a zombie bite. MisterBibs fucked around with this message at 22:09 on Jul 27, 2017 |
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Jul 27, 2017 22:07
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A dumb question: why is the Romulian warbird like 3x the size of the Enterprise? I admit I was not looking very closely at the time, but I always assumed they were around the same size:
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Jul 27, 2017 22:09
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Because the people who make these ship size charts cherry pick data to decide how big things based on TV shows that were wildly inconsistent with scale in the first place. I mean look at the 3 birds of prey, it's the same physical model.
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Jul 27, 2017 22:13
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MisterBibs posted:I had no problem with it. Like I said, they hammered home that it's a Data-like situation where she'll never be Not Borg. Because, c'mon, she's a Borg. You can't undo a zombie bite. What led you to believe that because Borg resemble Zombies in some respects, they therefore must be 100% identical to them in all ways?
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Jul 27, 2017 22:14
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MisterBibs posted:I had no problem with it. Like I said, they hammered home that it's a Data-like situation where she'll never be Not Borg. Because, c'mon, she's a Borg. You can't undo a zombie bite. Except when they undid it for Picard, of course.
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Jul 27, 2017 22:18
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The DS9 stuff with the prophets is basically like the ending to Interstellar, except that movie tried to come off as serious hard sci fi which made the idea of wormhole aliens seem a lot dumber. I didn't mind the religious Bajoran stuff because it gave us Kai Wynn.
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Jul 27, 2017 22:21
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