Star Citizen: Death of a Space Thread?

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Sabreseven: Feb 27, 2016

Sappo569 posted:

gently caress we can only hope, for the future of mankind

And have him take Ben with

Ben would take considerably longer to thaw out though, maybe if they put him in the microwave for a bit, but then, the smell. :barf:

# ? Aug 10, 2017 04:47

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# ? May 15, 2024 04:18

hardycore: Nov 4, 2009

The Titanic posted:

All the big name Origin guys I looked up to in the early 90's who helped me want to be a really cool programmer seem to have all ended up as poo poo canisters today.

That is a bit sad. From CR scamming people to the guy who made loving Ultima, a game about being a virtuous hero, also scamming people and selling his own blood for money, is just real depressing for the little girl in me who genuinely wanted to be good enough to work at Origin some day.

I kind of wish CR just stayed retired and Richard Garriott threw in his hat after Tabula Rasa. The memories of them being great would have been so much better than seeing what they have become today.

Ultima Online, with sprite graphics, MIDI, and designed to work on a 28.8K dial up connection, delivered more emergent gameplay and "~~~Living Breathing Universe World~~~" in a day then all of CR's fidelity and mocap ever will. Sad to see how the origin team has fallen, especially as an Austinite who actually got to meet some of them in the 90s.

# ? Aug 10, 2017 04:53

Hav: Dec 11, 2009; Fun Shoe

xXAdmiralBekHarXx posted:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUOcdJTgnvw

innocent people streaming star citizen and lolling at it

It's like watching people in an escape room. Its compelling viewing.

I'm fairly sure that they have a door fetishist on staff. There are so many doors.

# ? Aug 10, 2017 05:17

Sandweed: Sep 7, 2006; All your friends are me.

The Titanic posted:

It's like the NMS guys who made something look like it's not, and released it, and got destroyed by everybody.

CIG does the exact same thing except with even bigger promises that don't exist everywhere, with macrotransactions on top of a barely functional demo, and people flock to defend them.

The NMS fiasco was one part bad marketing and one part gamers dreaming up crazy scenarios that they would be able to experience. If the devs had just at one point said that there would be no multi-player at launch instead of «maybe you will have to wait and see for yourself» the entire thing could have been avoided.

# ? Aug 10, 2017 05:31

A Neurotic Corncob: Nov 12, 2016; A light wind swept over the corn, and all nature laughed in the sunshine.

BurnDown is going to own

http://i.imgur.com/UmXgqRF.mp4

# ? Aug 10, 2017 05:32

Bubbacub: Apr 17, 2001

Xaerael posted:

Lesson for the day: I'm loving bad at combat in Hellblade.

jfc this game is frustrating

Lavish as hell, though.

# ? Aug 10, 2017 06:46

DapperDon: Sep 7, 2016

Sandweed posted:

The NMS fiasco was one part bad marketing and one part gamers dreaming up crazy scenarios that they would be able to experience. If the devs had just at one point said that there would be no multi-player at launch instead of «maybe you will have to wait and see for yourself» the entire thing could have been avoided.

That temptation of success at your fingertips tho.

# ? Aug 10, 2017 06:52

Shadowlyger: Nov 5, 2009; ElvUI super fan at your service!

Ask me any and all questions about UI customization via PM

Bubbacub posted:

jfc this game is frustrating

Lavish as hell, though.

I believe someone in that stream said it was made by the same people as DMC, in which case the name of the game is and always will be "git gud or :frogout:

# ? Aug 10, 2017 07:03

Dementropy: Aug 23, 2010

# ? Aug 10, 2017 07:10

Tokamak: Dec 22, 2004

kingcom posted:

Holy loving poo poo. I cannot fathom how completely out of their depth they could be to not understand how incredibly valuable object oriented programming is and not only that but to not start using it from the get go. Like jesus all their insane bugs make sense if they were literally implementing the same code features over and over again with tiny variations for every single loving thing.

They do use it from the get go. Instead of explaining that they are adding to or changing object functionality, they are simply explaining how an object works. They are dumbing it down for backers and giving them something more informative. It also sounds better to the average backer than simply stating that they are reworking something they have 'finished'. Remember it's marketing, and not a literal account of what they are doing.

# ? Aug 10, 2017 07:14

Mirificus: Oct 29, 2004; Kings need not raise their voices to be heard

https://twitter.com/real_lethality/status/895345092877221888

# ? Aug 10, 2017 07:20

SelenicMartian: Sep 14, 2013; Sometimes it's not the bomb that's retarded.

Which one's the real lethality?

# ? Aug 10, 2017 07:26

no_recall: Aug 17, 2015; Lipstick Apathy

Mirificus posted:

https://twitter.com/real_lethality/status/895345092877221888

No, thats a screenshot.

# ? Aug 10, 2017 07:40

AbstractNapper: Jun 5, 2011; I can help

Scruffpuff posted:

You're going to think I'm kidding, but I can explain this. Members of the lower intellectual class engage in tons of rituals based on "magical thinking" - one of those rituals is creating reality by stating it. Say something enough times, and get enough other people to repeat it, and it becomes reality.

The U.S. has gotten a close look at this practice this year.

So this is simply that activity. "Chris is the Elon Musk of PC game development." Say it, repeat it, and it becomes true, and Star Citizen comes out!

You can see how people with this intellectual capacity could be convinced to back the game.

Actually this has been in marketing 101 (and consequently in political campaign 101, and arguably in actual politics too when explaining them to press/ TV) for years.

Just say something enough times as though it was true, get some people to repeat it as though it was true, and a larger crowd will mistake it for reality, without bothering to check.

# ? Aug 10, 2017 07:51

Roeben: Jul 23, 2013

Derek had the new avatar coming.

# ? Aug 10, 2017 08:18

crisp roberts: Oct 13, 2016

AbstractNapper posted:

Actually this has been in marketing 101 (and consequently in political campaign 101, and arguably in actual politics too when explaining them to press/ TV) for years.

Just say something enough times as though it was true, get some people to repeat it as though it was true, and a larger crowd will mistake it for reality, without bothering to check.

Also See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Crowd%3A_A_Study_of_the_Popular_Mind?wprov=sfla1

# ? Aug 10, 2017 08:35

bacalhau: Apr 29, 2013

The Titanic posted:

Good news for you, friend!

MoMA doesn't need to get a refund because he has $0 invested in Star Citizen.

Yeah, when the project fails he's going to come and post "ahah jokes on you I didn't have money in it after all".

# ? Aug 10, 2017 08:42

Mu77ley: Oct 14, 2016

kingcom posted:

Holy loving poo poo. I cannot fathom how completely out of their depth they could be to not understand how incredibly valuable object oriented programming is and not only that but to not start using it from the get go

I bet they're frequently getting their questions removed from Stack Overflow. "PLZ TO HELP HOW MAKE MMO IN CRYING ENGINE??????"

# ? Aug 10, 2017 08:58

Tippis: Mar 21, 2008; It's yet another day in the wasteland.

kingcom posted:

Yeah I think thats the thing that really gets me, its amusing when its just naive learning of 'hey we implemented this poorly and we started just setting up new classes for each ship and it became very clunky to track. So our solution was to set up a much better parent class for ships, we identified what the common methods that we needed to change a lot, and broke down some solid inheritance frameworks . All this resulting in a lot less maintenance for our code base'. Thats clever and sounds like a programmer who had to deal with someone being lazy early on and cleaning things up as the scope developed.

�and funnily enough, that would give them a reason to use the term �refactor� correctly. Instead, they use it for everything except the actual refactoring that would make their project less of a mess.

Indeed, everything that is inept, incompetent, and ignorant about the development of SC can be summed up and exemplified by that one little terms they've fallen in love with.

# ? Aug 10, 2017 09:04

Mu77ley: Oct 14, 2016

kingcom posted:

I was genuinely upset seeing them make this big deal of breaking their code up into 'components'. ITS NOT A COMPONENT! ITS A loving CLASS YOU HACK FRAUDS!

Actually, they may be trying to implement an Entity Component System: http://entity-systems.wikidot.com/

But this is stuff they should have built in from day one. His description of people having copy/pasted (also it's loving PASTE you idiot, not PASTA) chunks of code between similar classes fills me with dread as a developer. This is schoolboy error stuff. Where the gently caress were the experienced lead developers performing code reviews and architectural oversight to stop this kind of poo poo contaminating the code base?

# ? Aug 10, 2017 09:09

Roeben: Jul 23, 2013

I suspect he might have been referring to calling the class as "Copy and Pasting", that way non-programmers could still understand what he's saying. it doesn't make sense to me any other way really.

# ? Aug 10, 2017 09:23

Tank Boy Ken: Aug 24, 2012; J4G for life; Fallen Rib

Nicholas posted:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qkCuBdPpj18&t=1300s

I'm just coding as a hobby and I'm too loving lazy to copy/paste code, since I don't want to work on a mess. This is a bunch of coders going: :shrek:

. That explains while the whole game is a bug infested shithole of epic porportions.

Roeben posted:

I suspect he might have been referring to calling the class as "Copy and Pasting", that way non-programmers could still understand what he's saying. it doesn't make sense to me any other way really.

He literally stated they copied ~~code~~ "logic" from one weapon, to another weapon. And then had a problem, since they had to maintain "logic" for two weapons. But that was Item ONE loving OH. Everythings ~~better~~ worse with ITEM TWO loving OH.
gently caress me. CIG is trolling me. I'm getting pgabz levels of :argh:

It's so loving dumb.

# ? Aug 10, 2017 10:18

Roeben: Jul 23, 2013

He's talking about "Item 1.0", so he's talking about the hacked up tech demo that was the very first alpha version, when there was just arena commander and the hangar. That's what, 3-4 years ago now? It doesn't sound like this has been a problem in a while. I'm guessing they are just mentioning it to fill time and make it sound like they learned something.

Feels to me like they knew what to do all along but didn't have the time/manpower to care about it during the "item 1.0" period.

Mark is a terrible explainer though so I wouldn't be surprised if he mangled his own story and all of the above is bull.

# ? Aug 10, 2017 10:25

Tippis: Mar 21, 2008; It's yet another day in the wasteland.

https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2006/08/01/can-your-programming-language-do-this/

# ? Aug 10, 2017 10:28

orcane: Jun 13, 2012; Fun Shoe

The Titanic posted:

[...]
Now compare this to CIGs version:

Easy to use anywhere? Need to set up an extra camera and extra entire area around the character in the scene. Basically it can't be a spur of the moment thing since the scene will need to be built around it.

Development time? Probably between 8-20 months.

Difficulty in implementation? Each scene using a hologram will need the hologram character spawned in some special area other players can't find it, including an additional camera and linking. Every player using it will somehow need to not overlap wherever the hologram guy is at in the world. Will be complex to figure out in a multiplayer setting; and I have a feeling CIG hasn't gotten far enough to figure out how this is actually going to work.

Hardware overhead? Entire character and additional scene needs to be rendered on screen, then rendered again to a texture. A single scene will need at least 3 times the amount of work per frame to render, more depending on how shaders or scene filters are implemented.

Overall CIG spent tons of effort to over complicate something that will not add anything that cloning a character in a location would have done.

I guess the only real added benefit is instead of just getting "a character" hologram you can also see the surroundings of that character too since it's a scene with another camera. But that may make the hologram not stand out and look busy, so it they may end up turning off the background scene, effectively wiping out the only real "benefit".

Also it will probably help to kill your frame rate, which for Star Citizen is kind of an expected feature at this point for everything they do.

But maybe I'm totally wrong.

What is this hologram stuff? I had to skip so many pages :ohdear:

# ? Aug 10, 2017 10:45

Roeben: Jul 23, 2013

orcane posted:

What is this hologram stuff? I had to skip so many pages

Short of it:

CIG made a method to make holograms that's technically "advanced" yet common, when they could (and perhaps should) have just made a simpler solution. They then marketed this solution as revolutionary/cutting edge.

# ? Aug 10, 2017 10:57

Ayn Marx: Dec 21, 2012

G0RF posted:

Well crap there's a slap fight underway with MOMA and I just wrote an effort post for the thread as an overdue thank you for all who've welcomed me back so warmly.

Sorry MOMA if this complicates whatever you have going. You never reply to me but I like you anyway and am glad you're here.

Thats kind of you to say, BNBL - I appreciate it. I really do enjoy the camaraderie of the thread, despite the occasional derailments into cruelty. (I'd blame my disdain for bloodsport on age, but I think I just like people too much.) The time off was needed but man, it was hard staying quiet sometimes! Though I'm past the point of effort post indictments, and feel like charts and graphics are the more constructive outlet, please indulge me one that's overdue for those who've persevered here.

It's little remarked upon, perhaps little appreciated even here that the SA/SC has served some constructive purposes over its long life. (And Erillion and you /DS lurkers please sit down before you read the next paragraph because what follows WILL SHOCK YOU. Because not all of us have destructive methods or ends, no matter how fervently you drat us as one monstrousity of ill intent.)

The Kotaku UK series about Star Citizen came about in small part as a result of the madcap industriousness of goon research/postings on myriad topics. It made for compulsive reading, the best ringside seat to the most bizarre show in gaming. The sheer absurdity documented in prior pages lit beacon flares that passed one to the next and something rather miraculous happened; Gaming Journalism. Goons didn't MAKE them do anything, and Derek's personal crusade created its own complicated tensions (how could it not -- he broke Star Marine's story loudly and started his own set of avalanches -- if you doubt it check the July blog. ).

Kotaku UK chose to tackle what was pre-ordained to be a thankless task out of their own good grace. But write it they did, with extensive, carefully planned out research in advance, interviews with parties inside and out, present and past, on the record and off, and in the end, among other things, somebody actually wrestled the god's honest truth right out of Chris's own mouth about what actually happened with Illfonic and Star Marine.

Only the most deluded of zealots would today dare claim it was FUD. What it actually was was a brief, shining glimpse at something almost entirely missing from the 5 year proceedings: A Bright Moment of Accountability. Even now, the Erillions and Joe Blobers and DisturbedJim's of the world actually have a richer understanding of that period in CIG's history. It is accepted as accomplished fact, no longer debated, all narratives revised to admit "yes, the Illfonic relationship and project was mismanaged on both ends." And better still, employees of CIG and Foundry were given a chance to air their own griefs and frustrations, for lest we forget, they too have voices and not all sing in constant praise around the throne of their master and his process. Our efforts to raise awareness once were derided as FUD, and revisiting that MMORPG post about Star Marine speaks it plain, but FUD lead to FACT for all. Their understanding, ours and the gaming world's at large was advanced by that effort, and in some small but meaningful way, this thread played a part. And I am glad of it.

When I read the full story for the first time and saw all the sound bites, all the blanks finally filled in, knowing what I'd learned in advance of it, the little part we'd played, I just lit right up -- and must've had that stupid smile on my face for an hour. I just felt this warm, tiny shard of personal pride that I couldn't hope to fully explain to friends -- it would take 5000 pages of preamble and make even Portney's Complaint look like a brisk setup to its punchline. It was a shibboleth pride in the bizarre ongoing collaboration of strangers towards an improbably sometimes constructive end -- jokers, programmers, mockers, writers, haters, gamers, trolls and more -- trying to make finer sense of the madness of Star Citizen.

That is why, incidentally, the accusations of Erillion strike me as so comic. Take away the skeptics from this project and it's narrative is solely authored by the Chris Roberts and Erillions and Joe Blobers of the world. The backers would have less truth, not more, less objectivity, not more. All claims, no matter how outlandish, would be given credence. All histories revised to best accommodate future narratives. Star Marine would've been the sole and exclusive fault of "those illfonic idiots" but actually it was already in the game and all that stuff about "weeks not months" and Gold Horizon and "procedurally generated environmental destruction like in Battlefield" would be treated as canon rather than fodder, validation rather vapidity. We'd still have the old weekly trainwreck that was "Reverse the Verse" because all its stupidities would remain unremarked upon. All stories about the project would be clickbait and shillery, and while that might mean even more money in Chris's pockets, it would also mean less urgency to demonstrate that the funds thus far given will lead to the outcome formerly agreed upon.

So, anyway, I'm glad to be playing my small part again as I can, BNBL. Unlike many, I still don't want to see the company brought to ruination, even though Chris might deserve a chastening. I'd rather see the accountability long needed and only occasionally extracted from him made permanent. I don't expect that, of course, but I long for it anyway because well, I like people too much. Seeing the mighty brought low for their hubris loses its satisfactions knowing that those who suffered in their shadow suffer more in their downfall. If such a moment comes, and I hope it doesn't, the ones at the top get to fly away anyway. Business class, in fact, because they deserve to be comfortable especially in the hard times, and the fans will never know anyway.

My man I hope I grow to be that well-adjusted as I get older.
Right now I just want to see it all burn and dance around the fire like a savage

# ? Aug 10, 2017 10:59

toanoradian: May 31, 2011; The happiest waffligator

Roeben posted:

Short of it:

CIG made a method to make holograms that's technically "advanced" yet common, when they could (and perhaps should) have just made a simpler solution. They then marketed this solution as revolutionary/cutting edge.

Also I believe this method is the reason for a delay.

# ? Aug 10, 2017 11:06

Dementropy: Aug 23, 2010

# ? Aug 10, 2017 11:29

Xaerael: Aug 25, 2010; Marching Powder is objectively the worst poster known. He also needs to learn how a keyboard works.

Bubbacub posted:

jfc this game is frustrating

Lavish as hell, though.

In what way? Once I spent a bit of time getting used to combat timings and when to parry, I totally got the hang of the combat system. It's all about being sensible and not mashing attack, and using parry and dodge depending on the foe and attack.

Valravn is an rear end, and has a bunch of attacks that cause trouble, you can't parry his leap, and parrying his dash is really drat hard.

# ? Aug 10, 2017 11:47

Orange Carlisle: Jul 14, 2007

I just love that they're still keeping backers on the hook by showing them poo poo that games did ten years ago and branding it as 'entirely new tech that has never been done before!" and they buy it every time. They can keep doing that for years and years.

The multiple different ways they've discovered to keep the faithful blind deaf and dumb to their bullshit is impressive.

# ? Aug 10, 2017 12:22

Tokamak: Dec 22, 2004

orcane posted:

What is this hologram stuff? I had to skip so many pages

CIG implements a neat holographic effect using a secondary camera. Neat, but nothing too outlandish.
Some backers think CIG implemented actual, physical holograms. Thinks it's revolutionary, never done before tech.

# ? Aug 10, 2017 12:26

Beer4TheBeerGod: Aug 23, 2004; Exciting Lemon

Tokamak posted:

CIG implements a neat holographic effect using a secondary camera. Neat, but nothing too outlandish.
Some backers think CIG implemented actual, physical holograms. Thinks it's revolutionary, never done before tech.

Originally they said that adding a second camera wasn't viable within CryEngine, so I guess they have that going for them.

# ? Aug 10, 2017 12:34

Tokamak: Dec 22, 2004

Beer4TheBeerGod posted:

Originally they said that adding a second camera wasn't viable within CryEngine, so I guess they have that going for them.

its star engine tho

# ? Aug 10, 2017 12:39

zcrow: May 6, 2014; Ah.. yeah... um... tup tup tup tup tup.. this is something we'll add down the line

Mr. Carlisle posted:

I just love that they're still keeping backers on the hook by showing them poo poo that games did ten years ago and branding it as 'entirely new tech that has never been done before!" and they buy it every time. They can keep doing that for years and years.

The multiple different ways they've discovered to keep the faithful blind deaf and dumb to their bullshit is impressive.

I think thats down to the fact that a large proportion of SC backers haven't played games in the last 10 years, so they've not really been seeing much in the way of tech developments.

# ? Aug 10, 2017 12:40

Xaerael: Aug 25, 2010; Marching Powder is objectively the worst poster known. He also needs to learn how a keyboard works.

Beer4TheBeerGod posted:

Originally they said that adding a second camera wasn't viable within CryEngine, so I guess they have that going for them.

Thing is, we've only seen cropped in editor shots so far, so it's still probably not viable.

# ? Aug 10, 2017 12:49

Xaerael: Aug 25, 2010; Marching Powder is objectively the worst poster known. He also needs to learn how a keyboard works.

Never forget.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aaTveIlCaVY

# ? Aug 10, 2017 12:50

History Comes Inside!: Nov 20, 2004

bacalhau posted:

Yeah, when the project fails he's going to come and post "ahah jokes on you I didn't have money in it after all".

Nah there's a lot more lols to mine in the "well I don't mind losing my money because at least they tried" vein, he can get yeeeaaaars out of that if he sticks at it.

No reason to get straight into "I was only pretending to be retarded" endgame.

Edit: feel free to quote the poo poo out of this.

:toxx: