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Tom Perez B/K/M? This poll is closed. |
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77 | 25.50% |
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160 | 52.98% |
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65 | 21.52% |
| Total: | 229 votes | ||
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You're rolling your eyes at Harris, right? Because you'd have to be a loving idiot to believe that she gives a poo poo?
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Aug 13, 2017 07:29
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yes, the same lady who wanted to tear families apart in courthouses over truancy definitely cares about them being seperated in front of courthouses  likewise, i'm sure you really care about immigrants beyond the sub-minimum wage labor they provide
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Aug 13, 2017 07:32
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 This is a temporary effect that will happen any time the labor pool temporarily shrinks, before they start growing less. The flipside is the delayed reaction where they're not growing as much as they could with the labor pool once the labor pool is expanded again. It's unfortunate, yes, but we have to accept that these vegetables will rot if something happens like employees go on strike for better labor conditions. We already pay for vegetables to rot, under the New Deal, to ensure that these farms will still be working at maximum capacity once demand has fluctuated back to its maximum. In this way, Kamala Harris has stumbled into conservative arguments which have been used since the 1930s. (cross-posted from the Suck Zone, if this is allowed, because the topic there switched to the protests)
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Aug 13, 2017 08:07
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Reik posted:As long as I'm not breaking the law or violating regulations it's all the same to me. Whether you think that means I think more highly of health insurers than you or I think less highly of every other corporation I guess that's up to you to decide? I do support healthcare overhaul, so I can't think that highly of the current system. This is really dumb, dude. You're basically making an is-ought fallacy (i.e. you're saying "because things are this way, they're morally acceptable (or at least not unethical)." Like, there are a number of at least semi-plausible sounding avenues you could take to defend yourself here, but this is transparently stupid. Corporations are organizations of people, and people who willingly work for unethical organizations should be judged for that (to varying degrees depending upon the context; i.e. how easily the person could have made an alternative choice, how much they influence the organization, etc). All organizations of people are subject to a variety of outside forces, but this doesn't somehow render them ethically neutral entities that can do no right or wrong. Just like corporations are often pushed towards unethical activity by shareholders, politicians are often pushed towards unethical activity in order to raise funds to become elected (in a sense the combination of their donors and electorate are their shareholders). Also, it is entirely possible to simultaneously think "this organization and the people who work for it are unethical" and "the government should prevent such unethical behavior with regulations, because the organization in question - being unethical and all - isn't likely to do it on its own." To use the whole Nazi analogy (in a way that actually makes perfect sense - the only difference is the magnitude of unethical behavior involved), this is basically like excusing people who volunteered to be in the SS, because their organization was technically legal and the government (or, as it turns out, an outside government) would have had to step in to eliminate it. It's a logic that can excuse literally any organization (and its members) that is considered legal by the country in which it exists. It presumes that organizations can't be judged if there doesn't exist a non-governmental avenue through which to influence their activity (which applies to more than just corporations*). Unless you're trying to make some sort of "free will is an illusion" philosophical argument, I really can't understate how dumb this is. Your rationale here is actually kind of interesting as an example of the psychology of how people rationale their own roles in unethical systems. *I understand that your argument relies heavily upon the fact that a corporation's activity is determined by its shareholders (who are often, though not always, driven by profit). But if you include shareholders within the scope of the organization as the whole (which you should), there isn't any difference between a corporation and any organization. The only difference is that shareholders - through the board of directors - ultimately determine the direction of a company, rather than its executives or employees or whoever happens to be granted decision making power within a particular organization. Ultimately, someone other than the average employee is guiding the organization's direction in any non-coop business, whether it's a corporation or not, so your argument ultimately amounts to "voluntary members of an organization have no ethical responsibility for the actions of their organization", and at that point you can - quite literally - excuse voluntary members of any evil organization that is considered legal by the government. Someone who chooses to do paid work for the KKK or something isn't actually doing anything unethical, since the organization they're working for is legal and they aren't the ones calling the shots. That's ridiculous, right?
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Aug 13, 2017 08:41
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JeffersonClay posted:Yes and I think we should be letting in more immigrants and refugees, not less, because immigration helps our economy. And when it doesn't we shouldn't? gently caress off, JC.
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Aug 13, 2017 10:14
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JeffersonClay posted:Yes and I think we should be letting in more immigrants and refugees, not less, because immigration helps our economy. But JC! If we don't treat immigrants like second class citizens, costs will increase! How can we have that?!
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Aug 13, 2017 11:24
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Mister Facetious posted:Remind me; what actions did Obama's federal government take with the Bundy standoff, and that thing in Oregon? You know these people wanted to be shot, right? They wanted the federal government to shoot them because they believed it would prove them right. By not opening fire, the Bundys were proven wrong and their impact limited.
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Aug 13, 2017 12:48
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Democrazy posted:You know these people wanted to be shot, right? They wanted the federal government to shoot them because they believed it would prove them right. By not opening fire, the Bundys were proven wrong and their impact limited. The second one did actually get shot, most of them did flee like rats, mind.
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Aug 13, 2017 12:52
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Inescapable Duck posted:The second one did actually get shot, most of them did flee like rats, mind. They were already leaving, and he charged right at the police. Compare that to Ruby Ridge, an incident which is still used as far-right propaganda.
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Aug 13, 2017 12:57
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Democrazy posted:They were already leaving, and he charged right at the police. Compare that to Ruby Ridge, an incident which is still used as far-right propaganda. That does make me ponder the massive generational gap between the 'far right' and 'alt-right', with extremely little overlap. Most of the latter likely don't even know Ruby Ridge was ever a thing. (so they invent their own grievances) Same on the left, mind. Aside from a few individual cases, the generation gap between older and younger left and right activists is a goddamn chasm. Of course, it's as much a wealth gap as well.
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Aug 13, 2017 13:05
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Calibanibal posted:i like how nazis literally murdered a woman and centrists cant shut up about meanie dirtbag leftists lol They literally gave the headline of the NYT to Erik loving Erikson so he could poo poo on leftists and nazis and call them both sides of the same coin. They can't stop dumping on the left even when they run to hold an activist's coffin for electoral gain. How do you flub "Hmm, one of the sides in this fight is NAZIS, I wonder who I should back...." ??
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Aug 13, 2017 15:09
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Sephyr posted:They literally gave the headline of the NYT to Erik loving Erikson so he could poo poo on leftists and nazis and call them both sides of the same coin. The opinion piece (which is one of several on the topic in the paper) doesn't actually mention the counter-protestors, though?
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Aug 13, 2017 15:15
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Democrazy posted:The opinion piece (which is one of several on the topic in the paper) doesn't actually mention the counter-protestors, though? It pretty much opens equating the alt-right and alt-left and saying they are both symptoms of a failure to uphold 'western values'. Erikson would be there cheering if they were chanting Ted Cruz's name instead of Trump's. Him being legitimized as a worthwhile voice in a 'liberal' paper is part of the problem.
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Aug 13, 2017 15:37
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Sephyr posted:It pretty much opens equating the alt-right and alt-left and saying they are both symptoms of a failure to uphold 'western values'. He goes on to condemn the far right, and only the far right, for what happened yesterday. Also, the New York Time is not a liberal paper, it is a paper of record which gives its opinion section to many people of many backgrounds. Attacking them for publishing wrongthink is more fascist than anything that Erick Erickson wrote.
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Aug 13, 2017 15:57
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Calibanibal posted:i like how nazis literally murdered a woman and centrists cant shut up about meanie dirtbag leftists lol Post your loving proof. I assume everyone itt thinks terry mcauliffe is a centrist, I think it is fair to say he took an anti nazi stance.
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Aug 13, 2017 15:59
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I don't see what's so hard about being nice to other people
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Aug 13, 2017 16:02
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being nice to other people doesn't get you more money
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Aug 13, 2017 16:22
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Democrazy posted:He goes on to condemn the far right, and only the far right, for what happened yesterday. Also, the New York Time is not a liberal paper, it is a paper of record which gives its opinion section to many people of many backgrounds. Attacking them for publishing wrongthink is more fascist than anything that Erick Erickson wrote. quote:For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. As the left-wing social justice warriors have created mobs across America intent on destroying lives for daring to engage in wrong-think, an equal and opposite white supremacist movement has risen up. Both would silence the other side for wrong-think. Both work at the extremes of American politics. I'm not buying it. He basically shrugs off yesterday as a result of the escalation brought about by 'both sides', barely removed from Trump's non-answer. As for "gives its opinion to many people of many backgrounds", that's a joke. Paul Krugman is as far left as they ever go. When have they ever give any space to antifa or DSA pieces, especially now? This is lovely 'teach the controversy' hand0wringing.
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Aug 13, 2017 16:41
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a cat on an apple posted:being nice to other people doesn't get you more money Money can't buy happiness
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Aug 13, 2017 16:48
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"... So I guess I'll have to rent it." - Weird Al
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Aug 13, 2017 16:51
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yronic heroism posted:Post your loving proof. I assume everyone itt thinks terry mcauliffe is a centrist, I think it is fair to say he took an anti nazi stance. https://twitter.com/livemusic4me/status/896559199156568064 there's one
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Aug 13, 2017 16:55
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https://twitter.com/VABVOX/status/896704996963700736 there's another Condiv fucked around with this message at 17:02 on Aug 13, 2017 |
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Aug 13, 2017 16:57
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https://twitter.com/DougHenwood/status/896507233588178947 there's another
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Aug 13, 2017 17:02
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https://twitter.com/palebirdy/status/896480254952435712 there's another
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Aug 13, 2017 17:03
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jen kirkman bonus round: https://twitter.com/LanaDelRaytheon/status/896490866386259969 https://twitter.com/LanaDelRaytheon/status/896493651299155970
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Aug 13, 2017 17:05
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https://twitter.com/MiekeEoyang/status/896363608183123968 yet another
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Aug 13, 2017 17:06
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and that's just a smattering of centrists who were running around talking about how the alt-left wants to join forces with nazis, both before and after a leftist was murdered by fascists
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Aug 13, 2017 17:08
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I honestly think the left is pretty united on who to blame for the attacks yesterday. Not everything is about Bernie versus Hillary.Sephyr posted:I'm not buying it. He basically shrugs off yesterday as a result of the escalation brought about by 'both sides', barely removed from Trump's non-answer. Read the very next paragraph, dude. Also, Bernie Sanders wrote an opinion piece for them not two months before.
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Aug 13, 2017 17:16
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Democrazy posted:I honestly think the left is pretty united on who to blame for the attacks yesterday. Not everything is about Bernie versus Hillary. the left sure is united. centrists however had a good time yesterday punching left though. lot of "both sides!" out of them yesterday as a leftist got killed by a murderous fascist oh, and they are trying as hard as they can to turn an IWW member into a centrist post-mortem. absolutely vile and disgusting imo Condiv fucked around with this message at 17:37 on Aug 13, 2017 |
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Aug 13, 2017 17:20
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Democrazy posted:I honestly think the left is pretty united on who to blame for the attacks yesterday. Not everything is about Bernie versus Hillary. I never even mentioned Bernie or Hillary. This is about who is 'respectable' and who isn't. You can be grievously wrong about the Iraq War, about elections, about the 2008 Financial Crash, and still be considered a serious expert in the establishment circuit. speaking engagements, Think Tank positions, paid Op-eds. Hell, the NYT kept vile, serial-lying crook William Safire on its editorial page until he died. When you have a space to fill with opinions, your choices do say a lot about you. Every spot filled is a 'no' said to several other writers and points of view. There's a reason why global warming denialists have no issue getting column inches while, say, Moon landing hoax proponents get no love, despite both theories having about the same level of factual basis. They couldn't keep Sanders out because he's a senator and was a surprise in the primaries. There are no DSA leaders to be seen, though. No representatives of the people who were already dealing with nazis and 'alt-right' in campuses for months now.
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Aug 13, 2017 17:29
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Sephyr posted:There are no DSA leaders to be seen, though. No representatives of the people who were already dealing with nazis and 'alt-right' in campuses for months now. "Why doesn't the grassroots movement with no corporate backing have a large coordinated response to fascism?" Yes, deflect away from Dems not doing anything by blaming DSA
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Aug 13, 2017 17:37
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EugeneJ posted:"Why doesn't the grassroots movement with no corporate backing have a large coordinated response to fascism?" Pretty sure he's criticizing the NYT for NOT giving the DSA equal time. Or any for that matter.
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Aug 13, 2017 17:41
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EugeneJ posted:"Why doesn't the grassroots movement with no corporate backing have a large coordinated response to fascism?" You misread me. I'm not blaming the DSA in the slightest. I'm saying it is blacked out by the establishment on purpose. I'm sorry if it didn't come across that way; non-native speaker here. Basically, my point is that if the NYT (and other vehicles) want a 'variety of opinion', there are a lot of opinion they suspiciously avoid, and others that never have trouble getting space. Let's see how the NYT was talking about mobilization recently: "When Progressives Embace Hate" https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/01/opinion/womens-march-progressives-hate.html Oh noes! Progressives say zionism is bad! They are mean to Ayaaan Hirsi Allen, whom we might need to boost the next Middle East War!
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Aug 13, 2017 17:44
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ChairMaster posted:
This would happen with any action on immigration beyond "legalize slave labor", btw. We shouldn't be pushing for deportation, but the reason agriculture relies on slave labor is because wages and working conditions simply are not humane. If they aren't willing to improve conditions then it's on them for making the incorrect decision of no profits > less profits. Condiv posted:the left sure is united. centrists however had a good time yesterday punching left though. lot of "both sides!" out of them yesterday as a leftist got killed by a murderous fascist Pretty much. Leftists came out in force against literal modern day lynchings, and Radical Centrists came out in force to denounce them as just as bad. Free Speech doesn't cover braining kids with pipes.
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Aug 13, 2017 17:51
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Neurolimal posted:This would happen with any action on immigration beyond "legalize slave labor", btw. The whole point of me quoting that tweet is that the Democratic nominee is more concerned about the country running out of slave labor than she is about... human lives? She's perfectly happy to keep bringing in immigrants as long as we can pay them slave wages and have them pick crops. The Democrats are gonna lose again, and the fact that your country is structured to never have a third party means that the Republicans are going to be in power until 2024 minimum. If they're smart enough, the people in charge will keep donating to the Democrats indefinitely, so that there will never be room for an actual left-wing party to take their place, and they could get around to bringing back slavery or whatever it is that the Republicans are working toward.
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Aug 13, 2017 18:00
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https://twitter.com/eclecticbrotha/status/896729849041178625
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Aug 13, 2017 18:02
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Wow. Just....poo poo. The guy's timeline is just centrism.txt.
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Aug 13, 2017 18:08
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Calibanibal posted:i like how nazis literally murdered a woman and centrists cant shut up about meanie dirtbag leftists lol C. Everett Koop posted:It happened because people like the Clintons, Pelosi, and Hussein all failed us. Any shred of responsibility from them and we move the country and world away from this direction.  galenanorth posted:
FDR in 1923: quote:"that the mingling of white with oriental blood on an extensive scale is harmful to our future citizenship FDR in 1925 quote:Anyone who has traveled in the Far East knows that the mingling of Asiatic blood with European or American blood produces, in nine cases out of ten, the most unfortunate results. FDR in 1938 quote:the danger lies in Jewish control of [the economy] if too many are allowed into the country and particularly the cities. If "immigrants are good they help the economy" was a conservative argument in the 1930's (it really wasn't), then it's a good thing that democrats co opted it instead of making the same arguments they were making, so LBJ could pass https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_and_Nationality_Act_of_1965 quote:The quota system has other grave defects. Too often it arbitrarily denies us immigrants who have outstanding and sorely needed talents and skills. I do not believe this is either good government or good sense.
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Aug 13, 2017 18:08
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Sephyr posted:You misread me. I'm not blaming the DSA in the slightest. Yeah sorry I misread that
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Aug 13, 2017 18:08
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Sephyr posted:You misread me. I'm not blaming the DSA in the slightest. I'm saying it is blacked out by the establishment on purpose. I'm sorry if it didn't come across that way; non-native speaker here. Oh, I get it. You don't understand what an opinion section is. An opinion section is when a newspaper offers the viewpoint of a wide variety of people without agreeing or disagreeing with any of them. Some of them might be ones you disagree with; I assure you, it won't kill you to read the views of someone who you don't have 100% alignment with. They even published the most prominent DSA member in the country!
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Aug 13, 2017 18:10
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