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FlamingLiberal posted:Voyager is off-brand diet TNG that doesn’t do anything different Exactly. I can point to literally dozens of DS9 moments that are incredible/amazing/peak Trek, I can't think of any such moments from Voyager. What's the Voyager equivalent of the root beer conversation? Also, Neelix angers me on a fundamental level. It's very hard to pull off an explicit comedic relief character and they totally failed.
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Oct 21, 2017 16:49
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Voyager’s best episodes are at the quality of an average Season 3-7 TNG episode. There’s no episode of VOY that approaches a good TNG episode.
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Oct 21, 2017 16:56
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FlamingLiberal posted:Voyager’s best episodes are at the quality of an average Season 3-7 TNG episode. There’s no episode of VOY that approaches a good TNG episode. Bride of Chaotica
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Oct 21, 2017 17:19
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I watched all of voyager as a kid and the only episode I remember as being legitimately brilliant was the one where the doctor had a nervous breakdown. The only other ones I remember are the ones that were really hosed up (evil clown one) and the ones with intriguing sci fi bollocks that were good food for thought (that planet with accelerated time)
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Oct 21, 2017 17:25
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Oh, I also remember "the ship is a liquid and melts away into nothing and all hands were lost"
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Oct 21, 2017 17:26
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JeremoudCorbynejad posted:I watched all of voyager as a kid and the only episode I remember as being legitimately brilliant was the one where the doctor had a nervous breakdown. The only other ones I remember are the ones that were really hosed up (evil clown one) and the ones with intriguing sci fi bollocks that were good food for thought (that planet with accelerated time) I actually just watched The Thaw again last night, and the design and production of that episode really gave me flashbacks to episodes of Are You Afraid Of The Dark for some reason. Like, I half expected to see a bunch of teens sitting around a campfire after holo-Janeway’s “I knowwwww”. It stands out in a bizarre way from the rest of Voyager’s repertoire. It’s pretty good, nonetheless.
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Oct 21, 2017 17:46
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JeremoudCorbynejad posted:Oh, I also remember "the ship is a liquid and melts away into nothing and all hands were lost"
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Oct 21, 2017 17:46
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FlamingLiberal posted:I hate that stupid episode All_of_voyager.txt
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Oct 21, 2017 17:58
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JeremoudCorbynejad posted:the ones with intriguing sci fi bollocks that were good food for thought (that planet with accelerated time) Blink of an Eye. Probably Voyager's best sci-fi concept episode.
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Oct 21, 2017 18:11
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skasion posted:They were oddly terrified of getting rid of Chakotay honestly, they didn't even do it when Beltran was trying to get fired. Diversity concerns probably?
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Oct 21, 2017 18:45
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So issue 4 of Star Trek: Mirror Broken came out last week. Here's a brief summary: Continuing from issue 3 Picard and his crew have successfully commandeered the ISS Enterprise. The comic opens with Data and Barclay escorting another Next Gen character that I didn't expect to see in this series:   It's Guinan! Meanwhile Picard and his officers are discussing the crew situation. Since Picard plans on leaving any possible Jellico sympathizers on the Neptune penal station, the Enterprise will need another navigation officer. Picard annouces he will give the position to Wesley Crusher.  Picard gives the Jellico loyalists to his old friend on the station, Teusta Fonn.  I don't remember this character from any of the series and I wasn't able to turn up anything online that didn't reference this comic. Back on the Enterprise Picard offers Wesley the position of navigation officer, over the objections of Dr. Crusher.  After leaving Neptune Station the Enterprise is surround by three imperial ships one of which, [i]The Horatio[/u] has an old friend of Picards that has come to talk some sense into him, Captain Walker. I do like how the Tiptons manage to work prime universe characters into this story even if they are relatively minor.  After disabling the other imperial ships the Enterprise finds itself surrounded by a Klingon/Cardassian fleet.  Looking forward to the next issue!
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Oct 21, 2017 18:50
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The_Other posted:The comic opens with Data and Barclay escorting another Next Gen character that I didn't expect to see in this series: Why does Data have a giant H.R. Giger technodick
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Oct 21, 2017 19:14
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AceOfFlames posted:Why does Data have a giant H.R. Giger technodick Because in the mirror universe(our universe), why would you build a sentient robot that isn't truly fully functional?
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Oct 21, 2017 19:35
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The boy? *Baker Street plays*
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Oct 21, 2017 19:37
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Do they do the art on that comic by photoshopping screenshots of actors' faces?
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Oct 21, 2017 19:57
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WampaLord posted:I got you fam Thank you! And you're right, Garak makes it even better. Also thanks to Jeb! for his trip reports, I haven't watched TNG in a few years and reading you watch old favorite episodes (and bad ones, too) for the first time is so great.
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Oct 21, 2017 20:42
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JeremoudCorbynejad posted:I feel like you could extrapolate the size of that lake from the size of the Enterprise there and it wouldn't even come to that. Like Ringworld art that takes pains to show the Arch because otherwise it's just like "this is a planetary surface! how can I tell it's the Ringworld, without that or someone offering me rishathra?"
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Oct 21, 2017 21:25
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Gammatron 64 posted:Watching Star Trek Discovery is kind of miserable and it kind of made me really sad. I can't really agree with this. I'm keeping up with both series and Discovery just feels better thought out and IS better produced than Orville. I enjoy Orville but it's definitely Galaxy Quest. That said, I really liked Farscape so
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Oct 21, 2017 21:55
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Galaxy Quest isn't actually that funny aside from a few moments and spends far too much time winking and nudging the audience like "heh, you nerds remember all that behind the scenes crap about that old show from the 60's you love? Well here's a whole film about it!" to be enjoyable. Tim Allen also actually sucks the way some goons only think Seth Macfarlane does Orville really isn't anything like that because while it also isn't that funny, instead it turned out to be an earnest attempt at a sci fi show in the same tradition as Trek's better episodes. Discovery is what out of touch old rich people think is cool and will sell subscriptions to their crappy streaming service. Whatever neat ideas it hints are are bogged down by the lovely writing and lame characters.
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Oct 21, 2017 22:28
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Tighclops posted:Galaxy Quest isn't actually that funny aside from a few moments Thank you. Every time I read "lol Galaxy Quest is the real tenth Trek movie" I can't stop my eyes from rolling.
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Oct 21, 2017 22:35
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Yeah, I've always been frustrated by that too. The funny parts/characters it has are pretty good but none of it's strong enough to carry a whole drat movie. I was really afraid The Orville was going to be more of that but was very pleasantly surprised to find it was an actual show about things instead of some weird meta-jerk off about fandom itself.
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Oct 21, 2017 22:41
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Timby posted:Thank you. Every time I read "lol Galaxy Quest is the real tenth Trek movie" I can't stop my eyes from rolling. There haven't been a lot of these (probably because Star Trek's premise makes some lazy plots hard to pull off) compared to what Tolkien got, but perhaps the sun is dawning on a new era of derivative literature.
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Oct 21, 2017 22:42
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Tighclops posted:Galaxy Quest isn't actually that funny aside from a few moments and spends far too much time winking and nudging the audience like "heh, you nerds remember all that behind the scenes crap about that old show from the 60's you love? Well here's a whole film about it!" to be enjoyable. Tim Allen also actually sucks the way some goons only think Seth Macfarlane does I think you'll find that Orville also pokes fun at genre conventions, I agree with you that Seth McFarlane and Tim Allen are very similar in that neither is funny but both are mainstream thought to be, both play self-absorbed under-achievers who have to mug their way through aliens that take themselves very seriously. Discovery is an attempt to do a "prestige" drama (is there a better term for this? Prestige Drama sucks as a term) in Trek, it is definitely weighed down at points by committee (you will not convince me Sarek was written in as anything other than a corporate mandate) and it purposely is doing things differently. (The Captain cannot be trusted.) But I think there's a good Trek in there. Keep in mind that at this point in DS9 we had only had Captive Pursuit, and in TNG... Jesus look at TNGs first 5 episodes! Discovery is definitely better and more focused than either of those ever were. They're both different approaches to the source material and there's fun to be had with both. But I can't say "Orville is definitely Trek" because it's not, not even close. Orville is a cultural approximation of Treks tones with a veneer of goofiness. I like it a lot, but I honestly like Discovery a lot more. EDIT: It should be said W/R/T Galaxy Quest, I haven't watched that movie for quite a while, but my mind categorizes it in "light hearted adventure" and not "comedy".
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Oct 21, 2017 22:44
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Patrick Stewart loved Galaxy Quest so actually it's cool and good and cool again just for good measure
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Oct 21, 2017 22:52
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Galaxy Quest is both an adventure and a comedy, like The Voyage Home, say. I think it works reasonably well on a combination of mocking the conventional elements of Star Trek, poking fun at the "cast" and the fan culture without ever really trashing them, and its general celebration of campy sci-fi.
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Oct 21, 2017 22:53
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Moriatti posted:Discovery is an attempt to do a "prestige" drama (is there a better term for this? Prestige Drama sucks as a term) in Trek, it is definitely weighed down at points by committee (you will not convince me Sarek was written in as anything other than a corporate mandate) and it purposely is doing things differently. (The Captain cannot be trusted.) But I think there's a good Trek in there. Discovery is thus far borrowing a lot from that but it sounds from what I am gathering that it is nosing nearer to what we might consider "Trek" instead of having the main cast start selling space drugs out of the Discovery's trunk.
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Oct 21, 2017 22:54
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when they said discovery would be darker i didnt know they meant literally, get some loving lights on that set you assholes
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Oct 21, 2017 23:01
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Moriatti posted:I think you'll find that Orville also pokes fun at genre conventions, I agree with you that Seth McFarlane and Tim Allen are very similar in that neither is funny but both are mainstream thought to be, both play self-absorbed under-achievers who have to mug their way through aliens that take themselves very seriously. I don't want to write Discovery off because it's still early and they're clearly telling a serialized story, but I don't think it's any better than early episodes of TNG or DS9 or even VOY and ENT were; it just sucks in a modern way whereas those shows' early episodes sucked in a very 80's way. That this problem persisted all the way into the 2000s is part of why the franchise became stagnant and eventually died and while it's admirable to try to avoid that again by doing something different... yeah. Likable characters are kind of important to this whole "Star Trek" thing and as lovely as the other shows could be when they started at least they weren't staffed almost entirely with assholes that do dicky things to people and creatures for dubious reasons in the name of being a serious drama. I'm also not sure what "a cultural approximation of tones" means because The Orville is just blatantly flat out a Star Trek show with trademarked parts find/replaced out of the scripts, some weed/pop culture references added and the stuffiness dialed down a notch or two. It's the most "Same, but Different" Star Trek since DS9.
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Oct 21, 2017 23:02
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corn in the bible posted:when they said discovery would be darker i didnt know they meant literally, get some loving lights on that set you assholes As for the Orville, it does kind of come off as "Starfleet, but like, mediocre Starfleet, not top of the top Starfleet."
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Oct 21, 2017 23:07
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So I just watched the penultimate episode of DS9 S01, "Duet". I feel like that Cardassian tailor guy should have made an appearance here but he didn't, in fact I haven't seen him since like episode two. What gives? I liked him
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Oct 21, 2017 23:16
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corn in the bible posted:when they said discovery would be darker i didnt know they meant literally, get some loving lights on that set you assholes Pretty inconsiderate to Capt. Lorca.
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Oct 21, 2017 23:22
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I don't mind Galaxy Quest, but it hit too late to have the same effect on me as Red Dwarf's middle seasons or Hitchhiker's Guide the better Space Quest games. Some mix of those three still represents everything I want from sci-fi comedy. So at the moment I like The Orville as a competent light-hearted TNG homage but I still really, really wish it felt more like The Next Mutation. That said, when shows like Star Trek or Farscape feel like going for comedy and actually manage to nail it, they're often funnier than any parody or homage. I'd probably rather watch "Who Mourns For Morn?" over any two episodes of Red Dwarf right now.
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Oct 21, 2017 23:23
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JeremoudCorbynejad posted:So I just watched the penultimate episode of DS9 S01, "Duet". I feel like that Cardassian tailor guy should have made an appearance here but he didn't, in fact I haven't seen him since like episode two. What gives? I liked him You'll see much more of him as the show proceeds. Originally, Garak was intended as a one-off character, but his presence gradually grows throughout the show.
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Oct 21, 2017 23:26
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Garak will return. Also, he actual Discovery is pretty well lit. The Klingon ship isn't but uh... They never have been. The show does use more contrasting colours which is nice and less rugs. Tighclops posted:I don't want to write Discovery off because it's still early and they're clearly telling a serialized story, but I don't think it's any better than early episodes of TNG or DS9 or even VOY and ENT were; it just sucks in a modern way whereas those shows' early episodes sucked in a very 80's way. You're gonna claim that Discovery is as bad as Naked Now, Code of Honour and The Last Outpost? Bold move, my dude. Tighclops posted:That this problem persisted all the way into the 2000s is part of why the franchise became stagnant and eventually died and while it's admirable to try to avoid that again by doing something different... yeah. Likable characters are kind of important to this whole "Star Trek" thing and as lovely as the other shows could be when they started at least they weren't staffed almost entirely with assholes that do dicky things to people and creatures for dubious reasons in the name of being a serious drama. Did you watch the last 2 episodes or? The Captain is a dick. Michael is a human raised to suppress emotion by a bunch of distant dicks (Vulcans). Everyone else is fine, Tilly is awkward, Saru and the Doctor are great and Staments is a little arrogant but ultimately a good guy when it comes up. The Captain is clearly the villain of the season and Michael is going through an arc where she learns how to be human so I'm willing to forgive them. Tighclops posted:I'm also not sure what "a cultural approximation of tones" means because The Orville is just blatantly flat out a Star Trek show with trademarked parts find/replaced out of the scripts, some weed/pop culture references added and the stuffiness dialed down a notch or two. It's the most "Same, but Different" Star Trek since DS9. It means they're straight up stealing the sets, lighting and visuals to tell comfort food Trek. Orville hasn't approached Season 2 on of DS9 yet (although as of Ep 4 We're consistently at the levels of Captive Pursuit.) and it's definitely shot and acted like Voyager or... Galaxy Quest. If you think Orville's characters are better written than Discovery's, you're after different traits. The shows are different, I like both but Orville is a goofy version of Trek and Discovery is taking another crack at DS9's grey-zone. Jury's out on which will end up better but I can't fault someone for preferring Discovery (I clearly do.)
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Oct 21, 2017 23:28
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corn in the bible posted:when they said discovery would be darker i didnt know they meant literally, get some loving lights on that set you assholes For real, I tried watching the last episode during the day, all I could see was reflections of my windows
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Oct 21, 2017 23:31
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Moriatti posted:I can't really agree with this. I'm keeping up with both series and Discovery just feels better thought out and IS better produced than Orville. I enjoy Orville but it's definitely Galaxy Quest. Look, if you like Discovery, that's cool. The production values and effects are great. It's well made. But it's just not a fun, enjoyable show to me. They completely missed the mark. They wanted to make a Star Trek that's more in line with modern TV shows and they wound up with something that just isn't Star Trek. At least to me. If you enjoy it, more power to you. I wish I could. Nessus posted:As for the Orville, it does kind of come off as "Starfleet, but like, mediocre Starfleet, not top of the top Starfleet." Yep! The Orville is literally just Star Trek with the serial numbers filed off and a more casual atmosphere. I could totally see a ship like the Orville actually existing in the actual prime Star Trek universe. Picard's crew was the best of what Starfleet has to offer. The Orville feels like TNG, except instead of being about the best of the best, it's about average joes thrown into the Star Trek universe. They're not perfect - they might make inappropriate jokes, cheat on a spouse or get freaked out by responsibility, but they're good at heart and try to do the right thing at the end of the day. What I'm saying is they're human beings. Even though some are aliens. And one's a robot. We're 6 episodes into the Orville and we've already had at least 2 really decent episodes and I find the characters to be really likable. I don't really have a favorite yet (maybe Alara?), and the only one that I feel is kind of a dud is Norm MacDonald the blob man. Which is a surprise because I love Norm. I can't say the same for Discovery. The only likable character in that show is Saru the cow man. Michael and Lorca are loving assholes. And honestly, the comedy really isn't even that out of place in a Star Trek show. People are always going on about how dark DS9 was, and yes, it definitely dealt with dark subject matter, the show was still very optimistic and lighthearted. DS9 probably had more comedy in it than any other Star Trek show - Worf, Garak, Quark, Rom and the Ferengi are all really funny characters. Also while the Wrath of Khan and Undiscovered Country are great, Star Trek IV: the Voyage Home is hands down my favorite Star Trek movie.
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Oct 21, 2017 23:36
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JeremoudCorbynejad posted:So I just watched the penultimate episode of DS9 S01, "Duet". I feel like that Cardassian tailor guy should have made an appearance here but he didn't, in fact I haven't seen him since like episode two. What gives? I liked him That's because he was scripted as a one-off character, with no intention of ever having him show up again. People really liked him though, so they brought him back and gave him a bigger role starting in the next season. By the end he's a major part of the cast!
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Oct 21, 2017 23:41
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Nessus posted:instead of having the main cast start selling space drugs out of the Discovery's trunk. (in an extremely Harlan Ellison voice) Main cast? It was a redshirt named Beckwith! Gene was slandering me when he says I wrote Scotty dealing drugs! I'm still mad after fifty years!
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Oct 21, 2017 23:49
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Moriatti posted:You're gonna claim that Discovery is as bad as Naked Now, Code of Honour and The Last Outpost? Yeah, I meant what I said. This show sucks just as hard, but in a modern way. quote:Did you watch the last 2 episodes or? Honestly at this point I don't care where the story goes if they can't get me to care about the characters. The captain's a jerk, Michael is some sort of weird mary sue, the autistic cadet or whatever she's supposed to be is the least lovely character but seems to exist mainly to pump up Michael for some reason? Engineer guy is an abrasive catty prick who sucks to listen to even when he does the right thing I like the doctor guy so far but that's just because the sickbay set looks kind of neat and he hasn't been done anything awful yet quote:It means they're straight up stealing the sets, lighting and visuals to tell comfort food Trek. Orville hasn't approached Season 2 on of DS9 yet (although as of Ep 4 We're consistently at the levels of Captive Pursuit.) and it's definitely shot and acted like Voyager or... Galaxy Quest. Trek is comfort food for the soul, I never watched these shows to feel like I was chewing nails or getting kicked in the balls, even during DS9's darkest moments. Orville takes a lot in it's visual style from 90's Trek and while it's not what I would have done if I were going to bring Trek back to TV, it's clean, charming and effective. Discovery looks like it was expensive to produce but otherwise nothing about it is really visually compelling, at least nothing that wasn't lifted out of some prior version of the franchise. Also STD's space battles suck dick. Seriously, how is anybody impressed by that poo poo in 2017? Orville's not groundbreaking there either but it's got neat stuff like BOOM BITCH to carry them as opposed to whatever stock explosions they had in their version of Lightwave
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Oct 21, 2017 23:56
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Powered Descent posted:(in an extremely Harlan Ellison voice) On a personal level I gather that's the correct thing to do, though.
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Oct 22, 2017 00:10
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