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Wow, just a few years back, Marvel was hitting its stride with great poo poo like Superior Spider-Man, Hawkeye, and poo poo - the one about cheesy spider-man villains - Superior Foes?
dwarf74 fucked around with this message at 18:06 on Nov 5, 2017 |
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Nov 5, 2017 18:03
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Waffleman_ posted:Marvel and DC comics are just about constantly trounced by manga in sales and they refuse to learn any lessons from that. Manga has a wildly different production style in a different market where weekly anthologies can be sustained thanks to labor practices that would be abusive enough in the US to get both companies sued to oblivion.
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Nov 5, 2017 18:19
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Nuns with Guns posted:Manga has a wildly different production style in a different market where weekly anthologies can be sustained thanks to labor practices that would be abusive enough in the US to get both companies sued to oblivion. Monthly manga sell fine too
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Nov 5, 2017 18:21
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Andrast posted:Monthly manga sell fine too Everyone always points to Shonen Jump and One Piece as proof that American comics are doing it wrong, though. I mean, if Waffleman was thinking of a monthly series, I'd love to see his breakdown of those. Nobody ever brings them up. dwarf74 posted:Wow, just a few years back, Marvel was hitting its stride with great poo poo like Superior Spider-Man, Hawkeye, and poo poo - the one about cheesy spider-man villains - Superior Foes? Turns out the guy who writes good Spider-Man villains shouldn't be allowed to pitch story ideas for flagship titles like Captain America 
Nuns with Guns fucked around with this message at 18:26 on Nov 5, 2017 |
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Nov 5, 2017 18:22
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dwarf74 posted:Wow, just a few years back, Marvel was hitting its stride with great poo poo like Superior Spider-Man, Hawkeye, and poo poo - the one about cheesy spider-man villains - Superior Foes? There are still plenty of good Marvel comics being made, and as a reader I don't really care how everything is selling so long as it doesn't get cancelled. I just want them to stop having so many crossovers.
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Nov 5, 2017 18:26
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neaden posted:There are still plenty of good Marvel comics being made, and as a reader I don't really care how everything is selling so long as it doesn't get cancelled. I just want them to stop having so many crossovers. The endless crossovers is one of the main reasons I fell off of western superhero comics. Just let me read the good story without all that garbage I don't care about taking up time.
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Nov 5, 2017 18:27
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It's kind of dumb to compare the manga market in Japan to the comic market in the US because there are so many cultural and market differences between the two countries that you can't really say one model is better than the other. Japanese people consume media in completely different ways and manga is definitely helped by Japan's awful setup for media and the amount of idle time people spend on public transportation. Shonen Jump is also really cheap and printed on terrible quality paper. You don't collect it either, you usually just toss it or leave it on the train for the next person to see where you were. All I can think of too is that George Perez would be dead by now if DC was run like a Japanese manga company.
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Nov 5, 2017 18:37
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Nuns with Guns posted:Manga has a wildly different production style in a different market where weekly anthologies can be sustained thanks to labor practices that would be abusive enough in the US to get both companies sued to oblivion. Pretty much this. The monthly model of Western comics is hard enough on most artists, much less the Japanese weekly model. There's a human cost that comes with both, but with the Japanese model it's frankly unconscionable. There's a reason there are often fill-ins on Western comics - in my experience most artists are lucky enough to manage two to three quality pages a week, much less a page a day, and it taxes even artists who have gotten immensely skilled at it. Jack Kirby could pull off four books a month, sure, but he was paid crap, had a large family to feed, and was a ridiculous workaholic as a result - he had to.
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Nov 5, 2017 18:46
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Alien Rope Burn posted:I don't think universe reboots have ever really helped anything. They seem like a good idea, but usually just create more problems than they solve in the long-term. I mean, the only ones I can think of that were reallyl successful at all were Crisis on Infinite Earths and the Ultimate line of books, and the former had continuity issues that were so bad as a result they felt they had to have repeated crossovers to try and resolve them, and the latter fell into a black hole of shock-value "We can do anything here!" events. The tabletop supers I was playing in had a timey-wimey reboot because the GM didn't want to either turn it into a post-apoc supers game or hit us with our well-deserved TPK (we were playing teen sort-of-villains in the City of Heroes universe, and due to a series of bad decisions on my part (that were supported by the rest of the party), ended up allowing the Leviathan to awaken, which is an island sinking event at the least), and it's totally killed my interest in the game. There's a break before we go back to it, but I'm just not interested any longer, and feel like we wasted the past year or so of campaign and character development, though at least our characters are keeping their memories.
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Nov 5, 2017 19:06
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re: Comic chat, I prefer the Euro model where you get completed stories once or twice a year.
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Nov 5, 2017 19:08
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Bande Desineé for the mother loving win
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Nov 5, 2017 19:08
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Angrymog posted:re: Comic chat, I prefer the Euro model where you get completed stories once or twice a year. American companies do make those too. They're called Original Graphic Novels. Most people forget they exist because they come out, well, one or twice a year and they sell so poorly they only give them to big names like Batman and Spider-Man. Hell, all of DC's New 52 attempts to update their character's origins, the Earth One series, were OGNs.
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Nov 5, 2017 19:09
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neaden posted:There are still plenty of good Marvel comics being made, and as a reader I don't really care how everything is selling so long as it doesn't get cancelled. I just want them to stop having so many crossovers. Pretty much, there are always both good and bad comics coming out of the big two. While one might not care for the given trends or events going on at any given time, I think anybody that tells you that comics are objectively getting worse is usually saying that out of nostalgia than any objective criticism. Was Secret Empire a huge blunder? Sure was. So was Countdown. Or Arena. Or U Decide. Or Armageddon. Or Atlantis Attacks. Or Secret Wars II. And you can go back before event books, they didn't have pithy names to call out by, but there's a long history of cringe-worthy comics. But there's always great and interesting comics, too. I've always found most Chicken Little commentaries on the American comics industry pretty facile. No doubt their marketing will have to change sooner or later, but I don't think DC or Marvel are going to vanish in a puff of smoke in the foreseeable future.
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Nov 5, 2017 19:39
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Alien Rope Burn posted:Pretty much, there are always both good and bad comics coming out of the big two. While one might not care for the given trends or events going on at any given time, I think anybody that tells you that comics are objectively getting worse is usually saying that out of nostalgia than any objective criticism. Was Secret Empire a huge blunder? Sure was. So was Countdown. Or Arena. Or U Decide. Or Armageddon. Or Atlantis Attacks. Or Secret Wars II. And you can go back before event books, they didn't have pithy names to call out by, but there's a long history of cringe-worthy comics. But there's always great and interesting comics, too. I've always found most Chicken Little commentaries on the American comics industry pretty facile. No doubt their marketing will have to change sooner or later, but I don't think DC or Marvel are going to vanish in a puff of smoke in the foreseeable future. I can say with no exaggeration that I'd much rather read Secret Empire 2 (2017) than Countdown To Final Crisis. Secret Empire 2 (2017) is objectively better written, better art, more respectful to the auidence and the characters portrayed and is only 10 issues. Countdown To Final Crisis is worse in every way.
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Nov 5, 2017 19:47
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Zoro posted:American companies do make those too. They're called Original Graphic Novels. Most people forget they exist because they come out, well, one or twice a year and they sell so poorly they only give them to big names like Batman and Spider-Man. Hell, all of DC's New 52 attempts to update their character's origins, the Earth One series, were OGNs. I expect because the American market isn't used to getting their books like that, so they get overlooked.
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Nov 5, 2017 20:41
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Angrymog posted:I expect because the American market isn't used to getting their books like that, so they get overlooked. That's definitely not it because OGN have been around for decades
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Nov 5, 2017 20:43
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Speaking of Comics I recently read John Backderf's My Friend Dahmer and two things came to my head. 1: It's actually fairly possible and not hard at all to commit serial murders and not get caught due to all the information modern media gives us in order to build an efficient system and alibis. 2: There are not RPGs out there that correctly emulate serial killing which is a niche worth exploring.
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Nov 5, 2017 20:46
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Angrymog posted:I expect because the American market isn't used to getting their books like that, so they get overlooked. Nah, they just get generally marketed more towards a bookstore audience than the core comic readership, where things are more likely to vanish amongst the far larger market.
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Nov 5, 2017 20:57
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I can’t come up with a way to jokingly relate this to a graphic novel about a serial killer. The February TGD contest is over! Congrats to DavinValkri for knocking it out of the loving park to get second, and DNA Cowboys for making a game that involves Demons and Cake. “The Final Rankings” posted:8th: Armilage: The Peace Walkers by Free Cog (44pts)
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Nov 5, 2017 21:06
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Waffleman_ posted:Marvel and DC comics are just about constantly trounced by manga in sales and they refuse to learn any lessons from that. Trounced is a really strong word. Manga sales are nowhere near what they used to be.
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Nov 5, 2017 21:53
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Alien Rope Burn posted:Pretty much this. The monthly model of Western comics is hard enough on most artists, much less the Japanese weekly model. There's a human cost that comes with both, but with the Japanese model it's frankly unconscionable. There's a reason there are often fill-ins on Western comics - in my experience most artists are lucky enough to manage two to three quality pages a week, much less a page a day, and it taxes even artists who have gotten immensely skilled at it. Jack Kirby could pull off four books a month, sure, but he was paid crap, had a large family to feed, and was a ridiculous workaholic as a result - he had to. Not to diss Kirby--he deserves all the praise he gets--but western comic art has also gotten much more intricate over time. Before you could just slap in a muscle pose with a few lines for where the undies went, now people want wrinkles in clothing and individual faces and carefully shaded colors. Production values in Kirby's day were much closer to the manga concept now--there were even books Kirby worked on that had a manga-like production model where he filled in the key poses and assistants doodled in the rest. Even doing that, he resorted to far less 'mess of blurry lines' laziness in action scenes so he's still got one up. I don't want to go back to that era of production, shotgun marketing and nonsense covers. Knowing the state of affairs in anime and manga production makes me want to consume less of those as well--not that I was a big fan, but when your working conditions can be described as 'worse than video games' there really should be a re-examination. Unfortunately there's an endless supply of young men (and a few women) willing to pour themselves into that grinder in the hope of fame and wealth.
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Nov 5, 2017 22:04
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occamsnailfile posted:Not to diss Kirby--he deserves all the praise he gets--but western comic art has also gotten much more intricate over time. Before you could just slap in a muscle pose with a few lines for where the undies went, now people want wrinkles in clothing and individual faces and carefully shaded colors. Production values in Kirby's day were much closer to the manga concept now--there were even books Kirby worked on that had a manga-like production model where he filled in the key poses and assistants doodled in the rest. Even doing that, he resorted to far less 'mess of blurry lines' laziness in action scenes so he's still got one up. I don't want to go back to that era of production, shotgun marketing and nonsense covers. Well, yeah, I can only bring up so much in one post, but art for comics has gotten progressively more complicated over time, with the occasional outlier, of course. The demand for quality has risen but the general pay and work conditions haven't improved (unless you're one of the lucky few "hot" creators that the companies want to court).
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Nov 5, 2017 22:46
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The whole "being completely defeated by manga" thing gets a bit more embarrassing when the manga doing it is literally based on western superhero comics.
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Nov 5, 2017 23:05
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Working on what is the dumbest idea for a D&D setting: Gods of America.
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Nov 5, 2017 23:17
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Still going to say that defining gods as Good/Evil is dumb
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Nov 5, 2017 23:31
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Why are there little orbiting god-blobs around each alignment? Is that supposed to convey some meaning that you couldn't with just a bulleted list?
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Nov 5, 2017 23:34
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That Old Tree posted:Why are there little orbiting god-blobs around each alignment? Is that supposed to convey some meaning that you couldn't with just a bulleted list? The ones around Good are Good Aligned Gods, the one around Neutral are Neutral Aligned Gods, the one around Evil are Evil Aligned Gods.
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Nov 5, 2017 23:35
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Covok posted:The ones around Good are Good Aligned Gods, the one around Neutral are Neutral Aligned Gods, the one around Evil are Evil Aligned Gods. Yeah, like I said. Is that information not just in a simple list, for an actual, like, reason?
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Nov 5, 2017 23:41
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Whoever bought me this red text is just complimenting me for not being dumb like most Americans. Edit: Wait, I just realized the opposite of what I actually believe. Someone spent $10 to do that.
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Nov 5, 2017 23:49
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You don't even have to look at manga to see superhero comics getting outsold, weekly Finnish Donald Duck outsells all but the most best selling American superhero comics and has been doing that for some years now. Of course this is irrelevant because we don't know any numbers for online sales other than that demographic being more female/minority leaning since they don't have to deal with shitheads in the comic stores, which I believe is probably the same for the RPG market.
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Nov 5, 2017 23:56
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Unsurprisingly, Japan has released a Vocaloid/Hatsune Miku TRPG https://www.amazon.co.jp/gp/aw/d/40...C1wL&ref=plSrch I guess the only thing that surprises me is how long it took them. Also you can’t play as a Vocaloid, instead their songs power your character’s attacks.
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Nov 6, 2017 00:10
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Why skip straight from the founding fathers to the modern day?
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Nov 6, 2017 00:14
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So it's Ar Tonelico?
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Nov 6, 2017 00:15
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Getsuya posted:Unsurprisingly, Japan has released a Vocaloid/Hatsune Miku TRPG Why would I want to play a Vocaloid TRPG where I can't play a Vocaloid?
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Nov 6, 2017 00:15
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Well, looking deeper into it, apparently it’s based off a system called Amadeus which is basically Japan’s take on Scion (PCs borrow powers from deities) only in this one instead of gods it’s Vocaloids. But yeah Ar Tonelico minus the cool setting would probably be a good description.
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Nov 6, 2017 00:23
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Getsuya posted:Well, looking deeper into it, apparently it’s based off a system called Amadeus which is basically Japan’s take on Scion (PCs borrow powers from deities) only in this one instead of gods it’s Vocaloids. Ar Tonelico has always been "a few good setting ideas and good music absolutely inundated and ruined by the worst anime bullshit Japan could offer.
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Nov 6, 2017 00:28
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ProfessorCirno posted:Ar Tonelico has always been "a few good setting ideas and good music absolutely inundated and ruined by the worst anime bullshit Japan could offer. I love those games lol. It's an absolutely guilty pleasure and they know it enough to put a "mom entered the room" button but the gameplay and the music are real good
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Nov 6, 2017 00:32
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Plutonis posted:I love those games lol. It's an absolutely guilty pleasure and they know it enough to put a "mom entered the room" button but the gameplay and the music are real good Mom entered the room button.....
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Nov 6, 2017 00:34
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Otherkinsey Scale posted:Why skip straight from the founding fathers to the modern day? Laziness and the idea that the majority of American history is evil caused by Crowe (racism) feels appropriate.
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Nov 6, 2017 00:47
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This is the first pantheon I've ever seen where the God of War is the leader. Also the only one where leadership is passed peacfully.
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Nov 6, 2017 03:41
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