Middle East Thread: Clarissa Explains the Fall

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Middle East Thread: Clarissa Explains the Fall

Duckbox: Sep 7, 2007

Bishounen Bonanza posted:

"Dominate" means like what we did to Iraq and Afganistan, which is obvious from the context.

Yeah this.

Obama rejected the no fly zone and direct regime change. He didn't bomb Assad or mount an invasion. The US could have crushed the SAA as easily as it did Saddam had they wanted to, but, for whatever reason (domestic war weariness, lack of an exit strategy, faith in diplomacy, sheer indecisiveness, Russian intercession, regional/NATO reluctance, all of the above?) he never made that call. It doesn't matter what the "foreign policy establishment" thought because they're just professional blowhards and thankfully don't get to make those decisions.

The US support for rebels set in slowly and indecisively (the FSA we're frequently the worst armed faction in the country) and the absence of a clear US commitment left abundant room for Turkey, The Saudis, and everyone else to start backing their own pet proxies and did nothing to stop Russia and Iran from moving in in force.

That's what multipolar warfare looks like. The US could have said "we'll handle Syria everyone else stay out" and it might have worked for a while, but we'd have to own it -- declare war on Assad, send in troops, deal with the blowback the whole thing, but then maybe it becomes another "you broke it, you bought it" scenario and we spend the next decade seeing pictures of flag draped coffins on the news. The approach we actually took with CIA arms shipments and special ops "advisors" means we have a lot less exposure and a lot more plausible deniability, but it also means we can't control who else will get involved.

# ? Nov 23, 2017 03:50

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# ? May 24, 2024 21:16

Count Roland: Oct 6, 2013

I think multipolar warfare can look like all kinds of wars, not just proxy ones like Syria.

WW1 was fought in a multipolar world. The great powers at the time just grouped themselves together.

The Iran-Iraq war, or the Falklands war or the Russo-Japan war, these are all more conventional wars that could occur in a multipolar world. 2 regional powers fighting, a great power attacking a minor power, and two great powers going at it.

Even WW1 should have been multipolar. Democracy vs Fascism vs Communism. But despite the enormous ideological differences, it still ended up being 2v1 before being 1v1.

I for one think there's be more war in a multipolar world, not less. It also might not be very stable in the long run, but then nothing has been lately.

# ? Nov 23, 2017 04:07

Brother Friendship: Jul 12, 2013

A multipolar world is a much more concrete concept with the advent of the nuclear age than in any other prior era. There is simply no way to penetrate a nuclear shield and, thus, no way to knock any of the major players off the board. Previously the only time this would occur was when the distances were so great that a major power simply couldn't project its military might to dominate its neighbor such as Parthia and, to a more chaotic extent, the Germanic tribes east of the Danube for the Roman empire. When you can't remove a competitor they are given as much time as they need to adapt to your strengths and undermine your position even if it takes decades or centuries. And if you can't remove them then you need to work with them.

# ? Nov 23, 2017 05:12

Throatwarbler: Nov 17, 2008; by vyelkin

Well anyway

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...SKBN1DM0NY?il=0

quote:

Syrian opposition groups, meeting in Saudi Arabia to seek a unified position ahead of peace talks, decided to stick to their demand that Assad leave power, Al Arabiya television reported, following speculation they might soften their stance after their hardline leader quit.

Two days after being visited by Assad in the Black Sea resort of Sochi, President Putin hosted his counterparts Tayyip Erdogan and Hassan Rouhani there.

In a joint statement, the three leaders called on the Syrian government and moderate opposition to �participate constructively� in the planned congress, to be held in the same city on a date they did not specify.

�The congress will look at the key questions on Syria�s national agenda,� Putin told reporters at the summit, sitting alongside Rouhani and Erdogan. �First of all that is the drawing-up of a framework for the future structure of the state, the adoption of a new constitution, and, on the basis of that, the holding of elections under United Nations supervision.�

There was no word from the leaders on who would be invited. The list of invitees has been a sticking point, with Turkey objecting to some Syrian Kurdish groups attending.

Syria�s civil war, in its seventh year, has killed hundreds of thousands of people and created the world�s worst refugee crisis, driving more than 11 million people from their homes.

All previous efforts to achieve a diplomatic solution have swiftly collapsed, with the opposition demanding Assad leave power, the government insisting he stay on, and neither side able to force the issue by achieving a military victory.

But since Russia joined the war on behalf of Assad in 2015, the balance of power has turned decisively in his government�s favor. A year ago, the army forced rebels out of their last urban stronghold, the eastern half of Aleppo.

In recent weeks, the self-proclaimed caliphate of jihadist group Islamic State has collapsed. Government forces now effectively control all of Syria apart from a few shrinking rebel pockets and a swathe in the north held by mainly Kurdish forces backed by the United States.

STILL SEEKING ASSAD EXIT

Opposition groups held their meeting on Wednesday at a luxury hotel in Riyadh, two days after the leader of the High Negotiations Committee (HNC) that has represented them at previous peace talks quit abruptly.

HNC chief Riyad Hijab had been known as an uncompromising defender of the position that Assad must have no role in any political transition for Syria, and his resignation had led to speculation the opposition could soften its stance.

However, a draft of the meeting�s final statement still included the demand Assad leave office at the start of any transition, Saudi-owned Al Arabiya television reported.

Saudi Foreign Minister Adel al-Jubeir (C) poses for a group photo during a Syrian opposition meeting in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, November 22, 2017. REUTERS/Faisal Al Nasser
Having helped Assad�s government reach the cusp of victory, Putin now appears to be playing the leading role in international efforts to end the war on Assad�s terms.

In addition to hosting Assad, Rouhani and Erdogan, the Russian leader has also phoned U.S. President Donald Trump and Saudi King Salman in the past 24 hours.

Iran has long supported Assad.

Saudi Arabia, Iran�s arch rival in the Middle East and long a backer of rebel groups in Syria and advocate of the position that Assad must leave, has been the main supporter of the HNC. But after King Salman made an historic visit to Moscow a few months ago, Riyadh appears to have come around to Russia�s dominant role in Syria.

Slideshow (6 Images)
Similarly Turkey, traditionally one of the Syrian leader�s implacable foes, has increasingly shown willingness to work with Russia to resolve the crisis.

�This summit is aimed at results. I believe critical decisions will be reached,� Turkey�s Erdogan said in Sochi before his meeting with Putin and Rouhani.

The Syrian government welcomed the final statement from the three-way Iran summit, Syrian state media said on Wednesday, quoting an official source in the Foreign Ministry. It described it as the culmination of Assad�s summit with Putin.

The other major power with troops in Syria, the United States, has so far kept its distance. Washington has been arming, training and sending special forces to assist a Kurdish group fighting against Islamic State, angering Turkey which is fighting its own Kurdish insurgency.

HARD DISCUSSIONS

Still, any final settlement that keeps Assad in power will probably require the participation of some kind of opposition delegation willing to negotiate over the demand that he go.

U.N. peace talks mediator Staffan de Mistura, host of the formal peace process in Geneva, told the opposition groups at the Riyadh meeting they needed to have the �hard discussions� necessary to reach a �common line�.

�A strong, unified team is a creative partner in Geneva and we need that, one who can actually explore more than one way to arrive to the goals that we need to have,� he said.

De Mistura will meet Russia�s defense and foreign ministers on Thursday to discuss preparations for a new round of Geneva talks, Russian news agency RIA reported.

Russia said on Tuesday that the resignation of such �radically minded� Syrian opposition figures as HNC chief Hijab would help unite the disparate opposition factions around a more �realistic� platform.

# ? Nov 23, 2017 05:15

fishmech: Jul 16, 2006; by VideoGames; Salad Prong

Brother Friendship posted:

A multipolar world is a much more concrete concept with the advent of the nuclear age than in any other prior era. There is simply no way to penetrate a nuclear shield and, thus, no way to knock any of the major players off the board.

There's no such thing as a nuclear shield. Arguably, a small-time nuclear power can become even more vulnerable to attack from the "we can destroy the world on our own" crew than a non-nuclear armed power, due to their lack of ability to meaningfully retaliate while simultaneously being viewed as more threatening inherently.

And actually amassing and maintaining nuclear weaponry on the scale of the US or Russia remains very expensive and difficult, especially since so much of it is reliant on having the ability to keep tons of subs out at sea and planes in the air 24/7 that could deliver nukes.

# ? Nov 23, 2017 05:18

Brother Friendship: Jul 12, 2013

I'm referring to Russia/China/USA/"Europe", I suppose I should have made that clear. There are plenty of other reasons why India/Pakistan/Iran/North Korea can't be removed from geography to (non nuclear) fallout.

# ? Nov 23, 2017 05:21

Squalid: Nov 4, 2008

Duckbox posted:

Yeah this.

Obama rejected the no fly zone and direct regime change. He didn't bomb Assad or mount an invasion. The US could have crushed the SAA as easily as it did Saddam had they wanted to, but, for whatever reason (domestic war weariness, lack of an exit strategy, faith in diplomacy, sheer indecisiveness, Russian intercession, regional/NATO reluctance, all of the above?) he never made that call. It doesn't matter what the "foreign policy establishment" thought because they're just professional blowhards and thankfully don't get to make those decisions.

The US support for rebels set in slowly and indecisively (the FSA we're frequently the worst armed faction in the country) and the absence of a clear US commitment left abundant room for Turkey, The Saudis, and everyone else to start backing their own pet proxies and did nothing to stop Russia and Iran from moving in in force.

That's what multipolar warfare looks like. The US could have said "we'll handle Syria everyone else stay out" and it might have worked for a while, but we'd have to own it -- declare war on Assad, send in troops, deal with the blowback the whole thing, but then maybe it becomes another "you broke it, you bought it" scenario and we spend the next decade seeing pictures of flag draped coffins on the news. The approach we actually took with CIA arms shipments and special ops "advisors" means we have a lot less exposure and a lot more plausible deniability, but it also means we can't control who else will get involved.

I don't think it was ever possible for the US to have prevented Turkey, Saudi Arabia, and the Gulf from interfering in the Syrian Civil War. Just stopping private Gulf donors from funding Al Qaeda was difficult enough. Turkey was always going to try and divide the rebels from the PYD, and all the American money in the world couldn't guarantee Syrian rebels would behave as good little western liberal proxies and not engage in a little ethnic cleansing or create a new dictatorship following a victory over Assad.

# ? Nov 23, 2017 06:39

TheDeadlyShoe: Feb 14, 2014

You can't absolutely prevent such things. But it would have been a totally different ballgame. Assad's regime would have collapsed rapidly, and it would have been tremendously more difficult for Iran to operate or for Turkey/Hezbollah to take advantage of their borders. 'Winning the peace' would still be beyond American power and obviously everyone would put their foot in the ring. But i.e. you wouldn't have Russians bombing things.

# ? Nov 23, 2017 07:34

Duckbox: Sep 7, 2007

Squalid posted:

I don't think it was ever possible for the US to have prevented Turkey, Saudi Arabia, and the Gulf from interfering in the Syrian Civil War. Just stopping private Gulf donors from funding Al Qaeda was difficult enough. Turkey was always going to try and divide the rebels from the PYD, and all the American money in the world couldn't guarantee Syrian rebels would behave as good little western liberal proxies and not engage in a little ethnic cleansing or create a new dictatorship following a victory over Assad.

At the start of the revolution, the PYD was far from the only group in Rojava and their relationship with the FSA didn't go to poo poo until Turkey started getting more involved. Obviously we can't prove a counterfactual and I opposed US intervention at the time (still do, mostly), but if Assad had been ousted in the first year of the civil war, the factional map would have been unrecognizable. It took time for the regional powers to really start digging their hooks into Syria and that, more than anything, is what pulled the revolution into a dozen different directions.

# ? Nov 23, 2017 09:46

Blut: Sep 11, 2009; if someone is in the bottom 10%~ of a guillotine

Gozinbulx posted:

Sorry for drive by post, but can someone recommend me a good book about Syria's occupation of Lebanon? Also possibly just the civil war in general?

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Beware-Small-States-Lebanon-Battleground/dp/057123741X/

This provides a fairly detailed overview of modern Lebanese history, up to and including the 2006 Israeli invasion. Its academically sound (as far as I'm aware) and also very readable.

# ? Nov 23, 2017 13:46

Count Roland: Oct 6, 2013

Blut posted:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Beware-Small-States-Lebanon-Battleground/dp/057123741X/

This provides a fairly detailed overview of modern Lebanese history, up to and including the 2006 Israeli invasion. Its academically sound (as far as I'm aware) and also very readable.

I really should read this. I picked it up years ago but I was put off by how the intro of the book just seemed to talk about how bad Israel was.

I mean, I largely agree with that, but it seemed out of place. I guess I'll try again.

# ? Nov 23, 2017 14:48

ass struggle: Dec 25, 2012; by Athanatos

Throatwarbler posted:

Well anyway

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...SKBN1DM0NY?il=0

https://i.imgur.com/YYxUlMs.gifv

# ? Nov 23, 2017 17:08

Count Roland: Oct 6, 2013

rear end struggle posted:

https://i.imgur.com/YYxUlMs.gifv

Why do you post that?

# ? Nov 23, 2017 17:14

A Buttery Pastry: Sep 4, 2011; Delicious and Informative!

Count Roland posted:

Why do you post that?

It's pretty obvious. Putin is making it clear that he can unseat Erdogan.

# ? Nov 23, 2017 17:30

ass struggle: Dec 25, 2012; by Athanatos

Count Roland posted:

Why do you post that?

Putin tips over Erdogan's chair

# ? Nov 23, 2017 18:04

Squalid: Nov 4, 2008

Duckbox posted:

At the start of the revolution, the PYD was far from the only group in Rojava and their relationship with the FSA didn't go to poo poo until Turkey started getting more involved. Obviously we can't prove a counterfactual and I opposed US intervention at the time (still do, mostly), but if Assad had been ousted in the first year of the civil war, the factional map would have been unrecognizable. It took time for the regional powers to really start digging their hooks into Syria and that, more than anything, is what pulled the revolution into a dozen different directions.

The fact is even with all the knowledge of hindsight it is very difficult to say how things would have turned out in alternative circumstances. The best we can do is make broad assumptions about the motivations and capabilities of actors at a given moment, but even those quickly breakdown following small divergences from actual history. Anyone who thinks they know what would have been in the long term in another world is a fool or liar.

# ? Nov 23, 2017 18:14

TildeATH: Oct 21, 2010; by Lowtax

rear end struggle posted:

https://i.imgur.com/YYxUlMs.gifv

Three big Turks came running like they were in DC.

# ? Nov 23, 2017 18:18

Anta: Mar 5, 2007; What a nice day for a gassing

rear end struggle posted:

Putin tips over Erdogan's chair

False flag! Erdogan did chairghazi!

https://twitter.com/discojournalist/status/933685681670549504

# ? Nov 23, 2017 18:25

Brother Friendship: Jul 12, 2013

Anta posted:

False flag! Erdogan did chairghazi!

https://twitter.com/discojournalist/status/933685681670549504

how deep does this go

# ? Nov 23, 2017 18:26

Count Roland: Oct 6, 2013

rear end struggle posted:

Putin tips over Erdogan's chair

No, I looked at that.

Erdogan goes to standup, but the chair has started to lean back. He doesn't standup fully lest it fall over. That's why he's bent over when he shakes Putin's hand. Putin sees the chair is unsteady and adjusts it, then just pulls it away. Erdogan is still awkwardly moving about.

edit: a 2nd camera angle! I was close.

# ? Nov 23, 2017 19:04

Spergin Morlock: Aug 8, 2009

rear end struggle posted:

Putin tips over Erdogan's chair

"That's for Oleg!"

# ? Nov 23, 2017 20:31

Rincewinds: Jul 30, 2014; MEAT IS MEAT

Count Roland posted:

No, I looked at that.

Erdogan goes to standup, but the chair has started to lean back. He doesn't standup fully lest it fall over. That's why he's bent over when he shakes Putin's hand. Putin sees the chair is unsteady and adjusts it, then just pulls it away. Erdogan is still awkwardly moving about.

edit: a 2nd camera angle! I was close.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tBz3PqA2Fmc

# ? Nov 23, 2017 23:38

fits my needs: Jan 1, 2011; Grimey Drawer

https://twitter.com/nytimes/status/933845994202157058

The next six months are crucial....

# ? Nov 24, 2017 01:05

FlamingLiberal: Jan 18, 2009; Would you like to play a game?

I see he�s white-knighting torture and extortion of political opponents as �reform�

# ? Nov 24, 2017 01:20

RandomPauI: Nov 24, 2006; Grimey Drawer

The reasons why the Arab Spring failed isn't because of violent suppression. It's because the public's desire for change wasn't government lead and sanctioned!

# ? Nov 24, 2017 02:07

Flavahbeast: Jul 21, 2001

RandomPauI posted:

The reasons why the Arab Spring failed isn't because of violent suppression. It's because the public's desire for change wasn't government lead and sanctioned!

Yeah if the public had actually desired government lead then there would be no problem

# ? Nov 24, 2017 02:54

Al-Saqr: Nov 11, 2007; One Day I Will Return To Your Side.

fits my needs posted:

https://twitter.com/nytimes/status/933845994202157058

The next six months are crucial....

I wish thomas friedman would just die already, he's such an irredeemable piece of poo poo hack. gently caress that guy.

I'm reading the article now. Holy poo poo this loving guy just made a hamilton reference I loving hate this rear end in a top hat.

Also I love how this slack jawed piece of poo poo rube walks up to people and thinks he'll get any other response than total support and then he takes that as proof of support. I'm not surprised that the same idiot piece of poo poo assholes who hired brett stephens also hired this guy.

THE ARAB SPRING WAS VIOLENTLY RAPED AND MURDERED BY SAUDI ARABIA, THE US, RUSSIA AND IRAN, WHAT IS THIS loving rear end in a top hat EVEN TALKING ABOUT?!?!?!

RandomPauI posted:

The reasons why the Arab Spring failed isn't because of violent suppression. It's because the public's desire for change wasn't government lead and sanctioned!

What this loving hack doesnt understand that because the arab spring was so brutally murdered they've pretty much killed any possibility of peaceful reform, There's GOING to be a violent and completely merciless revolution a couple decades from now that wont be liberal and will absolutely see hundreds of thousands more people killed and everybody who even whiffs support for the current order will be guillotined without trial, this loving rear end in a top hat doesnt realize that the only real chance for a peaceful transition of power has come and gone. the arab democrats and everyone else interested in change (including non-democratic and illiberal forces like the crazed fundamentalists) are already drawing up the lists and groups of people and numbers of officers they'll need to kill to change the region for good. holy poo poo you guys have no loving idea what kind of blood bonanza is on the horizon thanks to the absolute brutality with which arab fascism decided to treat it's people when they tried to let them go easy.

# ? Nov 24, 2017 03:06

RandomPauI: Nov 24, 2006; Grimey Drawer

I don't want to imagine how bad it will be, but another global recession coupled with more rapid than planned for climate change wont make for a pretty picture.

# ? Nov 24, 2017 04:20

guidoanselmi: Feb 6, 2008; I thought my ideas were so clear. I wanted to make an honest post. No lies whatsoever.

Al-Saqr posted:

I wish thomas friedman would just die already, he's such an irredeemable piece of poo poo hack. gently caress that guy.

same. never forget: https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3076512

speaking of MBS...

Daily Mail posted:

EXCLUSIVE: 'American mercenaries are torturing' Saudi elite rounded up by new crown prince - and billionaire Prince Alwaleed was hung upside down 'just to send a message'

Saudi princes and billionaire businessmen arrested in a power grab earlier this month are being strung up by their feet and beaten by American private security contractors, a source in the country tells DailyMail.com.

The group of the country's most powerful figures were arrested in a crackdown ordered by Crown Prince Mohammed Bin Salman three weeks ago as he ordered the detention of at least 11 fellow princes and hundreds of businessmen and government officials over claims of corruption.

Just last month, the Crown Prince vowed to restore 'moderate, open Islam' in the kingdom and relaxed a number of its ultra-conservative rules, including lifting a ban on women driving.

DailyMail.com can disclose that the arrests have been followed by 'interrogations' which a source said were being carried out by 'American mercenaries' brought in to work for the 32-year-old crown prince, who is now the kingdom's most powerful figure.

'They are beating them, torturing them, slapping them, insulting them. They want to break them down,' the source told DailyMail.com.

'Blackwater' has been named by DailyMail.com's source as the firm involved, and the claim of its presence in Saudi Arabia has also been made on Arabic social media, and by Lebanon's president.

The firm's successor, Academi, strongly denies even being in Saudi Arabia and says it does not engage in torture, which it is illegal for any U.S. citizen to commit anywhere in the world.

The Saudi crown prince, according to the source, has also confiscated more than $194 billion from the bank accounts and seized assets of those arrested.

The source said that in the febrile atmosphere in the kingdom, Prince Mohammed has bypassed the normal security forces in keeping the princes and other billionaires at the Ritz Carlton hotel in Riyadh.

'All the guards in charge are private security because MBS (Mohammed Bin Salman) doesn't want Saudi officers there who have been saluting those detainees all their lives,' said the source, who asked to remain anonymous.

'Outside the hotels where they are being detained you see the armored vehicles of the Saudi special forces. But inside, it's a private security company.

'They've transferred all the guys from Abu Dhabi. Now they are in charge of everything,' said the source.

The source said that Salman, often referred to by his initials MBS, is conducting some of the interrogations himself.

'When it's something big he asks them questions,' the source said.

'He speaks to them very nicely in the interrogation, and then he leaves the room, and the mercenaries go in. The prisoners are slapped, insulted, hung up, tortured.'

The source says the crown prince is desperate to assert his authority through fear and wants to uncover an alleged network of foreign officials who have taken bribes from Saudi princes.

The source said that the name 'Blackwater' is being circulated as providing the mercenaries.

The controversial private security company, however, no longer exists under that name and is now Academi.

A spokesperson for Constellis, Academi's parent company, denied the claims.

The spokesperson told DailyMail.com that it has no presence in Saudi Arabia and does not carry out interrogations.

'Constellis through Academi does not now or have we ever provided interrogative services,' they said.

'We do not provide security services in KSA (Kingdom of Saudi Arabia), we have no contact or connection with any government official or private party regarding this allegation.'

When asked if Academi workers were involved in any kind of violence during these interrogations, the spokesperson said: 'No. Academi has no presence in KSA. We do not have interrogators, nor do we provide any interrogators, advisors or other similar services.'

They added: 'Academi does not participate in interrogative services for any government or private customer. Academi has a zero tolerance policy for violence. We operate legally, morally, ethically and in compliance with local and US laws.'

The name Blackwater, however, has previously surfaced in the Middle East in the wake of the round-up.

The Lebanese President tweeted that the country's former prime minister Saad Hariri was being detained in Riyadh by Blackwater guards, but later deleted the tweet.

'Lebanese authorities have unconfirmed information that the Blackwater firm is guarding Hariri and his family - not official Saudi security forces,' Michel Aoun, the President of Lebanon, tweeted last Wednesday.

A high-profile Saudi twitter account, @ Ahdjadid, which posts what is said to be inside information, also claimed Salman has brought in at least 150 'Blackwater' guards.

Saudi whistleblower Ahdjadid tweeted: 'The first group of Blackwater mercenaries arrived in Saudi Arabia a week after the toppling of bin Nayef [Salman's predecessor as crown prince].

'They were around 150 fighters. Bin Salman sent some of them to secure bin Nayef's place of detention and the rest he used for his own protection.'

The abuse claims were also raised recently in an article in the New York Times.

A doctor at a hospital in Riyadh and a US official told the Times that as many as 17 detainees had needed medical treatment.

But Fatimah Baeshen, spokeswoman for the Saudi Embassy in Washington, told the newspaper that the arrests were for 'white collar' crimes and that the country's public prosecutor was ensuring that the arrests are 'complying with the relevant laws and regulations'.

Among those arrested on allegations of corruption is Prince Alwaleed Bin Talal, the Saudi King's nephew who is worth more than $17bn according to Forbes, and owns stakes in Twitter, Lyft and Citigroup.

DailyMail.com's source claims the crown prince lulled Alwaleed into a false sense of security, inviting him to a meeting at his Al Yamamah palace, then sent officers to arrest him the night before the meeting.

'Suddenly at 2.45am all his guards were disarmed, the royal guards of MBS storm in,' said the source.

'He's dragged from his own bedroom in his pajamas, handcuffed, put in the back of an SUV, and interrogated like a criminal.

'They hung them upside down, just to send a message.

'They told them that "we've made your charges public, the world knows that you've been arrested on these charges."'

After the arrests, a picture was given to DailyMail.com of the Saudi royals sleeping on thin mattresses in the ballroom of the five star Ritz Carlton Hotel in Riyadh.

A US State Department source told the New York Times Salman was 'behaving recklessly without sufficient consideration to the likely consequences of his behavior, and that has the potential to damage US interests.'

However, the arrests drew praise from President Donald Trump, who tweeted that he had 'great confidence in King Salman and the crown prince of Saudi Arabia' after the corruption crackdown earlier this month.

Torture by a US citizen abroad has only been prosecuted in America once.

In 2008 the Boston-born son of former Liberian President Charles Taylor was found guilty by a US court of horrific torture.

The jury in Miami found Charles 'Chuckie' Taylor Jr. guilty on all eight counts brought against him, including allegations he and his cohorts tortured victims in Liberia by applying electric shocks to their genitals, burning them with hot irons and melting plastic and rubbing salt in their open wounds.

At the time Sigal Mandelker, the then deputy assistant attorney general with the crime division of the U.S. Department of Justice, said: 'It sends a very powerful message to human rights violators worldwide that they are not welcome here.'

Taylor was arrested at Miami International Airport in 2006 and pleaded guilty to a charge of lying about his father's identity on a passport application.

He was later indicted for torturing victims when he was the commander of a paramilitary security force called the Antiterrorist Unit - known as the 'Demon Forces' - that protected the elder Taylor while he was president of Liberia.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5108651/American-mercenaries-torturing-Saudi-princes.html

fuckin lol

# ? Nov 24, 2017 06:17

Bip Roberts: Mar 29, 2005

What a cool would we would live in if Gaddafi was writing nytimes op eds and Friedman got a knife in the butt.

# ? Nov 24, 2017 06:34

Ardennes: May 12, 2002

Yeah, any time the double-think that is the core of American foreign policy is actually communicated in public, it is going to come out as complete nonsense for a reason. I think this isn't the end of the puff pieces we are going to be seeing on MbS (or generally demonizing Iran).

I did chuckle about "Iranian over-reach" in Lebanon and Yemen.

# ? Nov 24, 2017 07:02

Fallen Hamprince: Nov 12, 2016

guidoanselmi posted:

same. never forget: https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3076512

speaking of MBS...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5108651/American-mercenaries-torturing-Saudi-princes.html

fuckin lol

It�s the Daily Mail so I wouldn�t get too excited about this being real.

# ? Nov 24, 2017 11:12

Volkerball: Oct 15, 2009; by FactsAreUseless

Still early for all the details, but as of now it seems that nearly 200 people have been killed during a terrorist attack on a Sufi mosque in the Sinai. Likely ABM/ISIS responsible. It's a disaster.

# ? Nov 24, 2017 16:05

Al-Saqr: Nov 11, 2007; One Day I Will Return To Your Side.

Oh what's this? The fascist animals who run Egypt are incompetent pieces of poo poo who are the source of the cancer? Wow.

Btw in case you guys forgot Ayman al zawahiri was a direct product of the Egyptian fascist police state torture system.

# ? Nov 24, 2017 16:35

Throatwarbler: Nov 17, 2008; by vyelkin

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/934029886842458112

# ? Nov 24, 2017 16:47

Randarkman: Jul 18, 2011

Al-Saqr posted:

Oh what's this? The fascist animals who run Egypt are incompetent pieces of poo poo who are the source of the cancer? Wow.

Btw in case you guys forgot Ayman al zawahiri was a direct product of the Egyptian fascist police state torture system.

I generally like you Al-Saqr, but be careful about stringing together too many of those words (fascist, police state, torture, system, etc) or you'll end up sounding like Francis E. Dec, Esq.

# ? Nov 24, 2017 16:51

Throatwarbler: Nov 17, 2008; by vyelkin

Erdogan is OK with Assad now as long as he fights the US backed terrorists PKK.

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/no-place-for-ypg-in-syria-solution-president-erdogan-122972

quote:

�We discussed the issue of the Syria national dialogue congress in detail. We, as three countries, will decide on who will be invited to the congress. Sub-commissions established by our foreign ministries will make the necessary studies beforehand,� Erdoğan said, adding that chiefs of general staff and intelligence agencies will contribute if necessary.

�We project that all groups and all fractions in Syria will be invited,� he noted, while stressing that Turkey�s position on �terrorist organizations such as the YPG and the PYD is clear.�

Erdoğan suggested that �Putin shares our sensitivity about the PYD and the YPG� and Syrian President Bashar al-Assad �also objects to the possibility of such an entity, as far as we can see.�

# ? Nov 24, 2017 16:51

Al-Saqr: Nov 11, 2007; One Day I Will Return To Your Side.

Randarkman posted:

I generally like you Al-Saqr, but be careful about stringing together too many of those words (fascist, police state, torture, system, etc) or you'll end up sounding like Francis E. Dec, Esq.

Ok.

# ? Nov 24, 2017 16:57

Duckbox: Sep 7, 2007

I will say I get a bit :ironicat:

about the phrase "fascist animals" because usually it's the fascists calling everyone else animals.

# ? Nov 24, 2017 16:59

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# ? May 24, 2024 21:16

Cat Mattress: Jul 14, 2012; by Cyrano4747

Please do not insult animals or neanderthals by comparing them to fascists.

Also please try not to get an all-expenses-paid stay at the Ritz Carlton.

# ? Nov 24, 2017 17:29

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Middle East Thread: Clarissa Explains the Fall

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