|
Herstory Begins Now posted:This is the first time we've seen both the US and Russia apparently agree openly that no one is going to start a war over dead PMCs. That's a big deal. But isn't that the entire point of using mercenaries instead of soldiers? They're expendable and plausibly deniable.
|
#
?
Feb 14, 2018 00:56
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 24, 2024 06:59 |
|
|
And Russian Mercs are even more espendable than American ones since they’re explicitly illegal.
|
|
#
?
Feb 14, 2018 01:34
|
|
|
Herstory Begins Now posted:To be a bit more serious and big-picture about this: it's open season on contractors now. That's a gently caress of a lot of dead contractors and I'm curious what percentage of the entire oil facility protection force that was. This is the first time we've seen both the US and Russia apparently agree openly that no one is going to start a war over dead PMCs. That's a big deal. Russia has been pretty sure about that for a while - hence their foreign policy revolving around sending armies of "volunteers" and state-backed PMCs to astroturf convenient wars, supported by regular troops sans-flag-patches when necessary.
|
|
#
?
Feb 14, 2018 01:38
|
|
|
Herstory Begins Now posted:To be a bit more serious and big-picture about this: it's open season on contractors now. That's a gently caress of a lot of dead contractors and I'm curious what percentage of the entire oil facility protection force that was. This is the first time we've seen both the US and Russia apparently agree openly that no one is going to start a war over dead PMCs. That's a big deal. lol if you think the US wouldn't start a goddamn shitstorm over Russia killing some American contractors. Probably the easiest way to get Trump to change his tune real quick.
|
|
#
?
Feb 14, 2018 01:40
|
|
|
TheDeadlyShoe posted:It makes me wonder what those communications were like. https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-partisan/wp/2018/02/09/in-syria-russian-bad-faith-turns-fatal/?utm_term=.ea6866026d18 quote:Hassan says he had intelligence reports that the pro-regime attack was coming. So at 9:30 Wednesday night, about a half-hour before the assault began, he called his regular Russian liaison contact in Deir al-Zour — hoping to avoid a battle.
|
|
#
?
Feb 14, 2018 02:04
|
|
|
Herstory Begins Now posted:That's a gently caress of a lot of dead contractors and I'm curious what percentage of the entire oil facility protection force that was. This is the first time we've seen both the US and Russia apparently agree openly that no one is going to start a war over dead PMCs. That's a big deal. It's actually not a big deal, because that was the whole loving point of why they sent PMCs instead of their actual soldiers.
|
|
#
?
Feb 14, 2018 02:04
|
|
|
OctaMurk posted:It's actually not a big deal, because that was the whole loving point of why they sent PMCs instead of their actual soldiers. That doesn't mean they won't be interested in finding a way to hit US contractors elsewhere, though probably not with such an impressive body count, and presumably working through a cutout to preserve deniability. Some kind of tit for tat tends to be how US-Russian relations work.
|
|
#
?
Feb 14, 2018 02:07
|
|
|
Moatman posted:From what I understand most of the casualties were Russian mercs in the area to "kill ISIS" i.e. everyone but ISIS and SAA That’s stupid. That whole front has been a fight against IS.
|
|
#
?
Feb 14, 2018 03:09
|
|
|
So who did that T-72 belong to? The SAA? An Iranian militia? Or Wagner PMC?
|
|
#
?
Feb 14, 2018 03:46
|
|
|
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-43053617 France pretty much created Syria, they might as well get back in this clusterfuck.
|
|
#
?
Feb 14, 2018 03:57
|
|
|
Coldwar timewarp posted:That’s stupid. That whole front has been a fight against IS. It's been occupied by the SDF for months since IS got steamrolled out of the area.
|
|
#
?
Feb 14, 2018 04:04
|
|
|
Ikasuhito posted:Looks like we are going to get a chance to see if Turkey has learned anything about trying to take a settlement larger than a village. The last village before Jandairis has apparently been taken and they may soon be marching on the town itself. Jandaris seems like its in a pretty strategic location. It sits along the Afrin river in a wide flat plain that extends all the way to the city of Efrin itself. Take the town and you could conceivably make a rapid push north -- that is, if you aren't obliterate by ATGMs from the surrounding hills. The Turkish forces started by pushing up onto the small ridge to the northwest of the town and have since advanced quickly up the plain. It doesn't look like a very defensible position from which to withstand an assault. The hills to the north from which the YPG might try to target forces attacking the town are about 5 km away, which puts them at the edge of the range of the konkurs and other wire guided missiles.  Can any military goons tell me about how tactically, one conducts an operation in this kind of hilly terrain? What kind of features you want to avoid, when do you want to move fast, slow, etc?
|
|
#
?
Feb 14, 2018 04:26
|
|
|
Herstory Begins Now posted:To be a bit more serious and big-picture about this: it's open season on contractors now. That's a gently caress of a lot of dead contractors and I'm curious what percentage of the entire oil facility protection force that was. This is the first time we've seen both the US and Russia apparently agree openly that no one is going to start a war over dead PMCs. That's a big deal. It was probably a vast number, at least 15% dead and 20% wounded, Russia probably aids them with strategic bombing the same way we do, to tilt the defenders of the oil infrastructure. However in this skirmish turned route we see a russian PMC force attack this base, Had there been a much smaller US response and/or lack of numerous US troops, there would have been a scramble for Russian conventional air assets to aide the taking of the infrastructure. In this case there was an overwhelming US support and thus russia turned its back on its sovereign citizens to save face and avoid transgressions with the U.S.A. A battalion sized element of Russians with Potential S-H-T-F air assets (Because yes, Russia does the same poo poo we do. Bomb infront of their contractors to tilt victory) can knock out most of what is seen in Syria that isn't backed by the US or Russia. Meaning that there isn't a need to have 5,000 PMC soldiers fighting for Assad, closer to A 1,000... Not enough to win rapidly, but enough to tilt victory.
|
|
#
?
Feb 14, 2018 04:37
|
|
|
Ramrod Hotshot posted:http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-43053617 
|
|
#
?
Feb 14, 2018 08:42
|
|
|
Warbadger posted:It's been occupied by the SDF for months since IS got steamrolled out of the area. Saying that the Russians, and those Russians in particular, didn’t fight IS is bullshit and you know it too you pedant. I didn’t say that they were fighting IS, I was refuting the old point that the Russians didn’t fight IS, which is categorically false. The focus of their intervention was originally more against the general rebellion, but to act like they didn’t fight IS is bullshit, and you are supporting that viewpoint, which you know better than.
|
|
#
?
Feb 14, 2018 08:44
|
|
|
Headline I didn't really expect to read in 2018: "Syrian war is getting worse" https://www.democracynow.org/2018/2/13/its_hard_to_believe_but_syrias
|
|
#
?
Feb 14, 2018 09:09
|
|
|
Herstory Begins Now posted:To be a bit more serious and big-picture about this: it's open season on contractors now. That's a gently caress of a lot of dead contractors and I'm curious what percentage of the entire oil facility protection force that was. This is the first time we've seen both the US and Russia apparently agree openly that no one is going to start a war over dead PMCs. That's a big deal. I can see MGS4 is still aging like fine wine. steinrokkan posted:Headline I didn't really expect to read in 2018: Really? I mean I'm happy as the next guy that the world could pretend for a few years that ISIS was the only problematic party in this conflict but this is always where this was heading.
|
|
#
?
Feb 14, 2018 09:50
|
|
|
OctaMurk posted:It's actually not a big deal, because that was the whole loving point of why they sent PMCs instead of their actual soldiers. Eh that's the point, but they're still protected simply by virtue of being Russian nationals. Make no mistake whatsoever: this is the most Russian nationals directly killed by the US in decades and decades. That's a big deal. It's absolutely been an international norm to not kill PMCs. As someone above points out, yeah the US would throw a shitfit if some American PMCs got killed (you kind of have to to keep people from targeting your citizens). Behind closed doors, everyone is sick of dealing with all the PMC bullshit on every side. Speaking cynically af for a moment, PMCs dying more often is about the only thing that's going to slow the growth of the bullshit, shady af contractor economy. LeoMarr posted:It was probably a vast number, at least 15% dead and 20% wounded, Russia probably aids them with strategic bombing the same way we do, to tilt the defenders of the oil infrastructure. However in this skirmish turned route we see a russian PMC force attack this base, Had there been a much smaller US response and/or lack of numerous US troops, there would have been a scramble for Russian conventional air assets to aide the taking of the infrastructure. In this case there was an overwhelming US support and thus russia turned its back on its sovereign citizens to save face and avoid transgressions with the U.S.A. The question here is whether that was the whole oil field attack/securing force or just a meaningful portion of it. It's been US MO to set up at oil installations because no one wants to bomb oil installations in addition to their obvious strategic significance, which is a smart way to make sure your positions never get bombed or shelled Coldwar timewarp posted:Saying that the Russians, and those Russians in particular, didn’t fight IS is bullshit and you know it too you pedant. I didn’t say that they were fighting IS, I was refuting the old point that the Russians didn’t fight IS, which is categorically false. The focus of their intervention was originally more against the general rebellion, but to act like they didn’t fight IS is bullshit, and you are supporting that viewpoint, which you know better than. You can go dig up the old maps that transposed RUAF 'anti-ISIS' strikes over territorial control and verify where their efforts were going. Yes, strictly speaking they have fought ISIS, but it was an awfully small fraction of their efforts in Syria. Herstory Begins Now fucked around with this message at 14:02 on Feb 14, 2018 |
|
#
?
Feb 14, 2018 13:05
|
|
|
Coldwar timewarp posted:Saying that the Russians, and those Russians in particular, didn’t fight IS is bullshit and you know it too you pedant. I didn’t say that they were fighting IS, I was refuting the old point that the Russians didn’t fight IS, which is categorically false. The focus of their intervention was originally more against the general rebellion, but to act like they didn’t fight IS is bullshit, and you are supporting that viewpoint, which you know better than. I never said Russia or this particular unit never fought ISIS. I implied "that whole front" isn't a fight against ISIS. This is an important point to make when supposedly anti-ISIS units are claiming to have been launching anti-ISIS operations in areas ISIS holds no territory in, directed at the forces who actually kicked ISIS out last year. I would also guess that the group in question does not primarily focus on ISIS, like pretty much every other unit associated with the SAA. I would guess that they conflate all rebel groups with ISIS - similar to them drawing the IS comparison with the SDF/Kurds after losing this battle. Warbadger fucked around with this message at 14:06 on Feb 14, 2018 |
|
#
?
Feb 14, 2018 13:58
|
|
|
MiddleOne posted:I can see MGS4 is still aging like fine wine. I expected Turkey to give up, Russia + Assad to clear Idlib and other pockets with about as much brutality as they'd been using elsewhere, and a peaceful solution for SDF territories to rejoin Syria.
|
|
#
?
Feb 14, 2018 14:53
|
|
|
https://mobile.twitter.com/BBCSteveR/status/963676464423071744 "They died for the Motherland and an idea..."
|
|
#
?
Feb 14, 2018 15:06
|
|
|
Lmao. Families in Russia are still trying to get information from the government on active duty soldiers they believe were killed in Ukraine, but a handful of mercenaries who died like idiots picking a fight with the US get held up as heroes on the front page.
|
|
#
?
Feb 14, 2018 15:10
|
|
|
I've been checking RT to see how they cover it, but I haven't found a single story about it, only vague references in other articles. Nothing about Russians being killed.
|
|
#
?
Feb 14, 2018 15:34
|
|
|
El Disco posted:https://mobile.twitter.com/BBCSteveR/status/963676464423071744 It’s the memorializing of Blackwater mercs all over again.
|
|
#
?
Feb 14, 2018 15:44
|
|
|
Happy Valentine’s Day, here’s a happy thing  https://twitter.com/mosuleye/status/963811682186391558
|
|
#
?
Feb 14, 2018 17:41
|
|
|
“Has the U.S. experienced the Ottoman slap?" a reporter asked Nauert at her State Department briefing. Smiling, she turned her head away and took a moment to collect herself as journalists laughed. “As funny as it was the comment that you explained to me, I’m not going to respond to every foreign leader’s comment,” she said. https://ahvalnews.com/us-turkey/us-spokeswoman-says-erdogans-ottoman-slap-threat-funny
|
|
#
?
Feb 14, 2018 17:42
|
|
|
Ramrod Hotshot posted:http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-43053617 France has been doing military air strikes in Syria since 2015, with the help of UK and US refueling and re-arming. France has also been way more outspoken against Assad than the States, and pushed hard for the US to uphold the red line Obama threat. They're aching to get interventionist against the SAA.
|
|
#
?
Feb 14, 2018 18:20
|
|
|
https://twitter.com/mahsti25metana1...90%7Ctwterm%5E1 I'm pretty sure if you told Ahmadinejad he had been transformed into a voodoo doll of Khamenei, he'd immediately stab himself to death.
|
|
#
?
Feb 14, 2018 19:22
|
|
|
Volkerball posted:https://twitter.com/mahsti25metana1...90%7Ctwterm%5E1 Why would Ahmadinejad have that kind of animosity toward Khamenei? Just that Khamenei leans slightly toward somewhat vaguely liberalizing reforms and somewhat slightly toward some gradual detente with the West? Political campaign tactic to whip up a reactionary backlash and ride it back into power? Being possessed by the ghost of Mossadegh? All of the above? Hell at this point I wouldn't be surprised if he's got curious/recent ties to Russia and a sudden desire to destabilize as many diplomatic arrangements as possible.
|
|
#
?
Feb 14, 2018 19:29
|
|
|
FAUXTON posted:Why would Ahmadinejad have that kind of animosity toward Khamenei? Probably because he got completely iced out of Iranian politics by him.
|
|
#
?
Feb 14, 2018 20:38
|
|
|
FAUXTON posted:Why would Ahmadinejad have that kind of animosity toward Khamenei? Khomenei covered for Ahmadinejad in 2009's election - but that didn't go to plan. This news story is a nice epilogue to that election: https://www.theguardian.com/news/blog/2009/aug/03/iran-ahmadinejad-president-trials. At that point, Khomenei refused to provide meaningful political cover. Pretty much as Bip said above. Personally, I think Khomenei realized he was duped by Ahmadinejad and his privatization scheme that has greatly empowered Ahmadenijad's clique at the expense of Khomenei's control. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Privatization_in_Iran"Justice_shares"_plan
|
|
#
?
Feb 15, 2018 01:42
|
|
|
abdel moneim abul-fotouh, the third place candidate in the only free election egypt ever had, was just arrested by Sisi. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-egypt-arrests/egyptian-authorities-detain-former-islamist-presidential-candidate-idUSKCN1FY2ZP
|
|
#
?
Feb 15, 2018 03:37
|
|
|
remember when his troopers were gunning people down in the street and posters were whinging about how it was probably better than whatever nefarious islamic endgame the muslim brotherhood had in mind?
|
|
#
?
Feb 15, 2018 04:12
|
|
|
GhostofJohnMuir posted:remember when his troopers were gunning people down in the street and posters were whinging about how it was probably better than whatever nefarious islamic endgame the muslim brotherhood had in mind? no
|
|
#
?
Feb 15, 2018 04:15
|
|
|
GhostofJohnMuir posted:remember when his troopers were gunning people down in the street and posters were whinging about how it was probably better than whatever nefarious islamic endgame the muslim brotherhood had in mind? I remember the first part being posted in the mideast thread but not the second part
|
|
#
?
Feb 15, 2018 04:20
|
|
|
GhostofJohnMuir posted:remember when his troopers were gunning people down in the street and posters were whinging about how it was probably better than whatever nefarious islamic endgame the muslim brotherhood had in mind? literally nobody did that
|
|
#
?
Feb 15, 2018 04:27
|
|
|
A lot of people in the thread supported the revolution, then supported removing Morsi when fears of him becoming a dictator spread, and then turned on Sisi pretty quickly when it became clear that he was a murderous dictator rather than the humble savior of Egypt he wanted people to think he was.
|
|
#
?
Feb 15, 2018 04:30
|
|
|
I looked it up and a couple goons were kinda defending the army after the Rabaa massacre but the general thrust of the thread was that the egyptian army are tremendous shitheads https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3390388&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=1088
|
|
#
?
Feb 15, 2018 04:38
|
|
|
The thread had had lots of posters who supported Morsi's coup. Kaal, Liberal l33t, Mr. 48, even Volkerball was cautiously optimistic at first. After the first massacre all but the most psychotic anti-Islam fanatics like Liberal l33t backed away, but there were plenty of people willing to say how Sisi was the lesser of two evils. It's easy for me to remember these jokers because I can just follow the links in my probation history. Here's one example from a month after Rabaa, took me five minutes to dig up: Kaal posted:It probably is rather unfair, but certainly Morsi aligned himself with the al-Nour Salifists, headlined rallies where clerics promoted violence against Shias, and said nothing to pacify the crowds. If a GOP President invited the KKK to speak at his anniversary rally, and then they killed four black Baptists a week later, I don't think that it'd be a stretch to say that he'd have a responsibility in that. Nor indeed was this the only event where anti-Morsi citizens were killed - the protests were massive and so it was a fairly common event.
|
|
#
?
Feb 15, 2018 04:56
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 24, 2024 06:59 |
|
|
Morsi was absolutely trying to become a dictator / subvert what democracy there was and it's really bizarre that people try to pretend otherwise. Sisi was/is extremely bad; the MB were also horrible. These are not mutually exclusive statements for intelligent and educated peoples on the matter.
|
|
#
?
Feb 15, 2018 05:58
|
|