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Darth Walrus posted:The Strike Freedom is the weapon of a smarter, more purposeful pacifist who understands the importance of totally controlling a battle if he wants everyone to come out the other side alive i still love early destiny for making GBS threads on this idea as hard as possible "rear end in a top hat pacifist with his space lasers somehow makes war even worse" is an amazing plot point
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May 8, 2018 16:25
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Darth Walrus posted:I do think that the Strike Freedom has its merits. The gold inner frame is tacky, but it does feel like a more complete version of the Freedom - whereas its predecessor had lots of useless kibble and weird asymmetries, the SF is a remarkably efficient, purposeful design. The feather design on the wings actually serves a purpose, the shoulders are raised to give the arms greater freedom of movement, and every weapon has a place - the original Freedom had nowhere to stow its rifle or shield when they weren’t in use, but the SF can effortlessly switch between weapons without discarding any of them. The swivelling racks for the railguns and beam rifles are a genuinely cool idea that ensures the SF has ranged firepower even with its swords out, while the beam shields offer the most unobtrusive protection possible. The Freedom can store its rifle at the small of its back, thank you very much. 
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May 8, 2018 16:36
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List is up to #75. Some interesting observations: -We have one tie at #65 - the Epyon and the Byalant Custom. -I've read through the entire list and Gundam Kimaris doesn't appear once. Well, I guess it does in the form of Vidar at #83 (and it is very explicit that it's not Kimaris Vidar, but just Vidar (Kimaris Camouflage)) -Even though Graham Acre ranks in the Top 5 pilots/characters, only two of his suits appear in the Top 100 and even then they place low. What's even more interesting is that neither the Masurao or the Susanoo appear - just the Brave Commander Test Type at #70 and the Union Flag Custom (Graham Type) at #86. -Setsuna places just one below Graham on the character list, but is exceedingly well-represented on the Top 100 MS list: 00 Raiser (#17), Gundam Exia (#22), 00 Quanta (#23), and Exia Repair (#40) all appear in the Top 50, with three in the Top 25. -Not a single drat suit from AGE places anywhere in the Top 100, which is a shame. The show sucked, but the Vagan suit designs are some of the most creative/best that I've seen in a long time (I'm looking at you Gundam Legilis). -Speaking of GMs, only two appear on the list. The GM Sniper II is the GM to end all GMs at #90, with the basic ol' GM appearing at #95. I guess you could say the Stark Jegan (#75) is a super-GM, which in that case means that three variants pop-up. -Gundam F91 is in the Top 10 MS designs, but it's the only thing from F91 to make an appearance - no Crossbone Vanguard suits are in the Top 100. LuiCypher fucked around with this message at 16:43 on May 8, 2018 |
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May 8, 2018 16:36
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Caros posted:The Freedom can store its rifle at the small of its back, thank you very much. The shield's also never actually in the way of anything, because it's forearm-mounted on a swivel.
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May 8, 2018 16:40
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I like the RGM-79 GM. Its simple appearance is mostly a function of the original show's animation budget but it still works because the Federation was more concerned with making GBS threads out any MS they could rather than fretting over the appearance of it.
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May 8, 2018 16:45
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LuiCypher posted:Not a single drat suit from AGE places anywhere in the Top 100, which is a shame. The show sucked, but the Vagan suit designs are some of the most creative/best that I've seen in a long time (I'm looking at you Gundam Legilis). The early mobile suit designs in 00 were more creative while the Gundam designs in particular were more creative in both G-Reco and IBO. AGE had some nice simple Federation grunt designs that still maintained some distinction despite their simplicity and some of the Vagan designs were goofy fun (the gorilla thing for instance), but I can't say as I find the Legilis of any note as a design.
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May 8, 2018 16:46
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I'm looking at the Freedom and I'm not really seeing any asymmetry, beyond it having a shield on its arm and a single rifle and if that counts then literally every mech that doesn't dual wield is asymmetrical which makes calling out the Freedom in particular weird. I've always thought the Freedom was cooler than the Strike Freedom, its just cleaner and not as gaudy to me. Also obviously that poll is dumb as hell where it disagrees with my opinions but is absolutely 100% accurate when it agrees with me.
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May 8, 2018 17:07
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tsob posted:The early mobile suit designs in 00 were more creative while the Gundam designs in particular were more creative in both G-Reco and IBO. AGE had some nice simple Federation grunt designs that still maintained some distinction despite their simplicity and some of the Vagan designs were goofy fun (the gorilla thing for instance), but I can't say as I find the Legilis of any note as a design. That makes sense. I guess I liked Legilis because it's exactly what they were hoping it would turn out to be - it's a Vagan suit (so it's got the standard 'mobile suit but also a dragon' motif going on) but fused with Gundam technology (so it has a shield, the dual-eye sensors+head vulcans). It's certainly more Vagan than Gundam, but I still thought it was a cool design (and the animation they made for its bit system is pretty kickin' rad). There's probably a few AGE MS that deserve a place before Legilis, but I feel like it's indicative of how much Gundam fans hate that series that not even a single suit can crack the Top 100. On the note of the creativity of G-Reco designs, it's also a drat shame that only the G-Self makes it on the list (and at a paltry #97 - the bottom of the barrel). Freedom Talk: Yes, all of this is well and good about the Freedom but it is sorely lacking in one key area that Strike Freedom excels - the ability to make your rifles butt-gently caress (technically accurate term) each other.
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May 8, 2018 17:10
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EthanSteele posted:I'm looking at the Freedom and I'm not really seeing any asymmetry, beyond it having a shield on its arm and a single rifle and if that counts then literally every mech that doesn't dual wield is asymmetrical which makes calling out the Freedom in particular weird. I've always thought the Freedom was cooler than the Strike Freedom, its just cleaner and not as gaudy to me. Also obviously that poll is dumb as hell where it disagrees with my opinions but is absolutely 100% accurate when it agrees with me. I've never liked Bit-heavy designs on general principle, because all too often combat just turns into Bits shooting from arbitrary stock-footage directions against the opponent with no real flow to the fight. The only real exception is maybe the Mobius Zero from SeeD, because the things were on tethers and generally hanging pretty close to the fighter body itself. LuiCypher posted:Freedom Talk: Yes, all of this is well and good about the Freedom but it is sorely lacking in one key area that Strike Freedom excels - the ability to make your rifles butt-gently caress (technically accurate term) each other. That's because nothing rivals the King of Butt-loving Rifles; The Bu(tt)ster Gundam .God I want a proper HGCE kit of the Buster Gundam 
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May 8, 2018 17:11
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EthanSteele posted:I'm looking at the Freedom and I'm not really seeing any asymmetry, beyond it having a shield on its arm and a single rifle and if that counts then literally every mech that doesn't dual wield is asymmetrical which makes calling out the Freedom in particular weird. I've always thought the Freedom was cooler than the Strike Freedom, its just cleaner and not as gaudy to me. Also obviously that poll is dumb as hell where it disagrees with my opinions but is absolutely 100% accurate when it agrees with me. Most Destiny designs are generally trash, in my opinion, because they're either exceptionally gaudy in weird ways or make odd callbacks to historic Gundam designs without really being 'consistent' with the SEED Universe. Actually, probably the most 'consistent' design is the Legend Gundam, and that's only because it's basically a miniaturized Providence Gundam (which makes sense given that technological advancement typically leads to miniaturization of existing technology). I guess what I'm saying is - Destiny is a hot mess in terms of story and MS design, and I'll always be confused when I see elements from it place highly. It will be very interesting to see where IBO designs place once they've been around for 10 years. Neddy Seagoon posted:I've never liked Bit-heavy designs on general principle, because all too often combat just turns into Bits shooting from arbitrary stock-footage directions against the opponent with no real flow to the fight. The only real exception is maybe the Mobius Zero from SeeD, because the things were on tethers and generally hanging pretty close to the fighter body itself. I think a lot of the issues with bit-heavy designs focus on production costs for animating their attacks. SEED is an example of where they're used in a lazy way to buy time/save costs in battle scenes, because god knows we can't have the Providence Gundam fight without using its stock attack footage over and over again. In direct contrast you have the Nu Gundam/Sazabi fight from CCA, where the funnels were used to show Char and Amuro fighting each other on every conceivable plane. Not only were they dueling each other physically, they were dueling each other mentally via funnels across all of Axis.
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May 8, 2018 17:34
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LuiCypher posted:Most Destiny designs are generally trash, in my opinion, because they're either exceptionally gaudy in weird ways or make odd callbacks to historic Gundam designs without really being 'consistent' with the SEED Universe. Actually, probably the most 'consistent' design is the Legend Gundam, and that's only because it's basically a miniaturized Providence Gundam (which makes sense given that technological advancement typically leads to miniaturization of existing technology). The Providence Gundam is absolutely where I got my distaste for them from, though I must admit to my great shame I haven't seen CCA yet (It's even on my shelf!  ).
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May 8, 2018 17:38
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EthanSteele posted:I'm looking at the Freedom and I'm not really seeing any asymmetry, beyond it having a shield on its arm and a single rifle and if that counts then literally every mech that doesn't dual wield is asymmetrical which makes calling out the Freedom in particular weird. I've always thought the Freedom was cooler than the Strike Freedom, its just cleaner and not as gaudy to me. Also obviously that poll is dumb as hell where it disagrees with my opinions but is absolutely 100% accurate when it agrees with me. The asymmetry of the single beam rifle is irritating because the rest of the suit is so symmetrical. It makes the Full Burst Mode that’s the Freedom’s main selling point look incomplete - there’s two big red beams, two big yellow beams, and one weedy little green beam off to the side. The Strike Freedom is also a much cleaner design if you ignore the fact that the inner frame is gold - the wing-kibble and abdominal recess serve a practical purpose, and the beam shields are much more simple and elegant than the Freedom’s ridged monstrosity. Caros posted:The Freedom can store its rifle at the small of its back, thank you very much. Neddy Seagoon posted:The shield's also never actually in the way of anything, because it's forearm-mounted on a swivel. Fair point on the rifle, but I’d argue the SF’s stowage is much more ergonomic and less likely to result in your arms getting in the way of those huge wings. As for the shield, there are times when you’re not going to want a gigantic lump of metal hanging off your forearm even if it does leave the hand on that side free. It’s why the Turn A, RX-78, and Gusion Rebake all have storage racks on their back for their shields. Another thing I don’t much like about the Freedom’s design is how redundant its weapons suite is. Its only real selling point over any other suit is its ability to project extreme firepower in a fairly narrow cone in front of it - and really, how many things actually need to be shot with two plasma cannons, two railguns, and a beam rifle at once? The Strike Freedom, by contrast, feels like a general-purpose superiority suit with a tool for every job. Its DRAGOONs and twin rifles give it total battlefield control, letting it engage any number of enemies from any number of directions. Its chest plasma cannon is a demolition tool for obliterating large, slow-moving targets, its railguns give it an option for dealing with beam-resistant targets at range, and the combined rifle is a powerful, accurate sniping tool for engaging more mobile enemies at great distances. Plus, if you still want to go ‘gently caress everything in front of me’ and shoot something with literally everything at once, that’s totally an option.
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May 8, 2018 17:41
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I find it amusing that for as mediocre as the first generation GMs were, the Ground GM is still the most hilariously over-armoured grunt suit of the OYW.
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May 8, 2018 18:08
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LuiCypher posted:In direct contrast you have the Nu Gundam/Sazabi fight from CCA, where the funnels were used to show Char and Amuro fighting each other on every conceivable plane. Not only were they dueling each other physically, they were dueling each other mentally via funnels across all of Axis. Amuro and Char only ever face each other with one bit/funnel apiece, and never for long. Char uses one bit on Amuro at the start of the film when Amuro is in the Re-GZ, and Amuro shoots it down with a regular beam rifle. Then at the climax of the film Amuro fights Quess in the Alpha Azieru with all 6 fin funnels and when we next see him he has only one funnel remaining, while Char sends 5 bits out to blow up nukes that Bright launches at Axis and all of them are destroyed in the explosions of those nukes. When Amuro and Char face off at Axis they initially refrain from using their remaining remote weapons until Amuro shoots up a ship carrying nukes with his beam rifle; Char then tries to stop him, including using his remaining bit, with Amuro sending his fin-funnel out to battle Char's bit and both are blown up by the ship's explosion. The only time both use remote weapons against each is in that brief instance outside Axis, and it only lasts a couple of seconds at most. That's a far cry from them duelling each other mentally using funnels across all of Axis. They do duel across Axis, but with more traditional weapons and the funnels only make up a tiny fraction that you could almost blink and miss. Darth Walrus posted:The Strike Freedom, by contrast, feels like a general-purpose superiority suit with a tool for every job. Its DRAGOONs and twin rifles give it total battlefield control, letting it engage any number of enemies from any number of directions. Its chest plasma cannon is a demolition tool for obliterating large, slow-moving targets, its railguns give it an option for dealing with beam-resistant targets at range, and the combined rifle is a powerful, accurate sniping tool for engaging more mobile enemies at great distances. Plus, if you still want to go ‘gently caress everything in front of me’ and shoot something with literally everything at once, that’s totally an option. The fact it has a good weapon for every job is kind of why a lot of people hate it. Putting aside that the sheer number of weapons makes the whole thing very busy looking, it also makes other units redundant. Why does Athrun and his suits, never mind Andy or the Dom trio matter when Kira's suit is great for everything? And while you've praised the waist rifle holsters and railguns, it's another sign of how busy the design is to me; the waist had to pull double duty just to hold all the weapons they like loaded on to the thing. tsob fucked around with this message at 18:28 on May 8, 2018 |
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May 8, 2018 18:25
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tsob posted:Amuro and Char only ever face each other with one bit/funnel apiece, and never for long. Char uses one bit on Amuro at the start of the film when Amuro is in the Re-GZ, and Amuro shoots it down with a regular beam rifle. Then at the climax of the film Amuro fights Quess in the Alpha Azieru with all 6 fin funnels and when we next see him he has only one funnel remaining, while Char sends 5 bits out to blow up nukes that Bright launches at Axis and all of them are destroyed in the explosions of those nukes. Because it’s only one suit against two gigantic armies? That’s kind of a weird notion. Even if one machine is the best at everything, you’re still going to need more than one machine. The Infinite Justice is also more of a dedicated ace-killer, designed for tying up and neutralising elite pilots and powerful suits so that the Strike Freedom can get along with clearing out everything else. As for simply having a lot of weapons, that’s rarely a big negative for a Gundam. I mean, everybody loves the Thunderbolt FA-78 and the Exia, don’t they?
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May 8, 2018 18:43
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There's no such thing as universally beloved. The FA-78 is a giant meh for me. There's nothing aggressively bad about it, but nothing great either. Exia is decent, but it's weapon load out is balanced by the fact it's all handheld so it can't use more than two weapons at once.
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May 8, 2018 19:02
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Yinlock posted:it's not that bad, and hey it's a grunt suit that actually helped in a war None of these things are related to its appearance though?
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May 8, 2018 19:19
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tsob posted:There's no such thing as universally beloved. The FA-78 is a giant meh for me. There's nothing aggressively bad about it, but nothing great either. Exia is decent, but it's weapon load out is balanced by the fact it's all handheld so it can't use more than two weapons at once. Hold on a sec, why’s it better for a suit to only be able to use a few of its vast arsenal of weapons at once?
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May 8, 2018 19:20
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Darth Walrus posted:Hold on a sec, why’s it better for a suit to only be able to use a few of its vast arsenal of weapons at once?
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May 8, 2018 19:26
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Considering I don't see the indisputably best mobile suit in the top ten, much less any other section of the list as far as I can tell, I think we can safely dismiss this entire exercise as a farce of the highest order.
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May 8, 2018 19:42
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3 posted:Considering I don't see the indisputably best mobile suit in the top ten, much less any other section of the list as far as I can tell, I think we can safely dismiss this entire exercise as a farce of the highest order. Ball-humbug.
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May 8, 2018 19:49
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Man I was about to rag on Stardust Memory for it's dub but goddamn does it rule, the one episode I'm in so far
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May 8, 2018 20:23
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3 posted:Considering I don't see the indisputably best mobile suit in the top ten, much less any other section of the list as far as I can tell, I think we can safely dismiss this entire exercise as a farce of the highest order. Strong enough to beat six Rick Doms, so long as you're a Newtype.
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May 8, 2018 20:26
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3 posted:Considering I don't see the indisputably best mobile suit in the top ten, much less any other section of the list as far as I can tell, I think we can safely dismiss this entire exercise as a farce of the highest order.
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May 8, 2018 20:30
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3 posted:Considering I don't see the indisputably best mobile suit in the top ten, much less any other section of the list as far as I can tell, I think we can safely dismiss this entire exercise as a farce of the highest order. Just noticed how that winch makes it look like that thing’s drooling.
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May 8, 2018 20:39
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Darth Walrus posted:Hold on a sec, why’s it better for a suit to only be able to use a few of its vast arsenal of weapons at once? Because part of the problem some people have with the Strike Freedom is that its not just overloaded with weaponry, but that it can use it all at once quite easily with no real cost or problem. The Exia can't, so it makes the unit more digestible for some. 3 posted:Considering I don't see the indisputably best mobile suit in the top ten, much less any other section of the list as far as I can tell, I think we can safely dismiss this entire exercise as a farce of the highest order. The Ball isn't a mobile suit, it's a mobile pod. Which is kind of a cheaty term that only exists for that one unit and is never used outside manuals and stuff to distinguish it, but it's closer to mobile armor than a mobile suit anyway.
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May 8, 2018 20:53
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Limitations generally make designs cooler, and that's part of why I've never been a huge fan of funnels (barring suits where funnels are the only thing they do) because the only real limitation is are you a space wizard.
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May 8, 2018 21:34
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tsob posted:Amuro and Char only ever face each other with one bit/funnel apiece, and never for long. Char uses one bit on Amuro at the start of the film when Amuro is in the Re-GZ, and Amuro shoots it down with a regular beam rifle. Then at the climax of the film Amuro fights Quess in the Alpha Azieru with all 6 fin funnels and when we next see him he has only one funnel remaining, while Char sends 5 bits out to blow up nukes that Bright launches at Axis and all of them are destroyed in the explosions of those nukes. Yeah, I rewatched it and I definitely oversold it. Still a cool moment with the funnel duel, just not as cool/long/amazing/BATTLING WITH THEIR MINDS ACROSS AXIS as I wanted it to be. tsob posted:The Ball isn't a mobile suit, it's a mobile pod. Which is kind of a cheaty term that only exists for that one unit and is never used outside manuals and stuff to distinguish it, but it's closer to mobile armor than a mobile suit anyway. If the Ball was included as part of the Top 100 MS list we'd see some weird-rear end poo poo like the Oggo placing in the Top 10 because there are some strange IGLOO paint-huffers out there who put the Zudah and Hidolfr in the Top 50.
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May 8, 2018 21:59
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tsob posted:The Ball isn't a mobile suit, it's a mobile pod. Which is kind of a cheaty term that only exists for that one unit and is never used outside manuals and stuff to distinguish it, but it's closer to mobile armor than a mobile suit anyway.  This is canon.
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May 8, 2018 22:17
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 Stardust Memory is fuckin' rad, drat that's a cool starship bridge
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May 8, 2018 22:30
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I finished translating the entire list. Now you can review all of the MS rankings from 1 to 100! It was a fun side project. A few more notes: - I got really sick of seeing the same suit with multiple forms. You know how many times the Unicorn Gundam appeared on the list? Three times! The Banshee appeared twice as well. Char's Zaku II also appeared twice on the list, once for the original Mobile Suit Gundam and a second time for The Origin. - I'm not sure if show quality correlates exactly with MS love. SEED Destiny ranks #14 among all series (and somehow Turn A is only just above it at #13, the cretins) but Strike Freedom is the #3 best suit ever? Still, I guess Zeta Gundam is both the #2 ranked series and mobile suit, so like you do. - To further elaborate, despite being at the literal bottom of the toilet as far as series go (all three are poorly ranked), IGLOO has two suits in the Top 50 and AGE (which is ranked at #29, just above the first MS IGLOO at #30) has no suits in the Top 100. Weird. - Maybe I'll get into ranking series next... - Women really liked Gundam Wing, IBO, and SEED. No, really. The gender for people voting for these series is very nearly balanced. (~50% Male, ~40% Female), with Wing having the closest balance (53% Male, 47% Female) followed by IBO (55% Male, 45% Female) LuiCypher fucked around with this message at 22:36 on May 8, 2018 |
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May 8, 2018 22:32
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Taintrunner posted:Man I was about to rag on Stardust Memory for it's dub but goddamn does it rule, the one episode I'm in so far It's dub isn't that bad, it's the terrible audio quality of early 90s dubbing. Stardust Memory is still pretty bad, give it a few episodes before it collapses.
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May 8, 2018 22:34
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3 posted:This is canon. It's also not a Ball; it's a Ball that's been used as the basis to build a mobile suit off of. I'm also pretty sure it doesn't make logistical sense, since I recall Balls being nearly as big as a mobile suit. The Altas should be bigger if it uses a Ball as a torso. Or have weird proportions, with tiny limbs on a huge torso.
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May 8, 2018 22:54
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tsob posted:It's also not a Ball; it's a Ball that's been used as the basis to build a mobile suit off of. I'm also pretty sure it doesn't make logistical sense, since I recall Balls being nearly as big as a mobile suit. The Altas should be bigger if it uses a Ball as a torso. Or have weird proportions, with tiny limbs on a huge torso. To be fair, the Atlas is designed for underwater combat so it shouldn't be a surprise that its ball shrunk.
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May 8, 2018 23:06
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Zedd posted:Well for fight choreography it cool to mix things up ofcourse. The scene of Exia pulling out increasing amounts of his blades to plunge into the Alvatore is rad AF. I was fond of how Mikazuki used pretty much every part of the Barbatos for kills at one point or another. Seeing the sub-arms put to use was a very... Mikazuki approach. Even when he got a psuedo-funnel, it was on a wire and he only had one, so it still kept him in focus rather than just being lasers everywhere. (The GM Sniper II is still the best grunt suit. It says something that it only appeared for ten seconds before dying and still made the list.)
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May 8, 2018 23:12
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Since we were talking about the Freedom versus the Providence, this video with all the talky bits stripped out shows that it’s actually quite an interesting, tactical fight underneath it all. You can see Kira trying to feel out a way through Rau’s curtains of beams, and deciding which bits of the Freedom he can sacrifice to get a crippling hit in. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z85-vtGa6Z4
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May 8, 2018 23:13
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chumbler posted:Limitations generally make designs cooler, and that's part of why I've never been a huge fan of funnels (barring suits where funnels are the only thing they do) because the only real limitation is are you a space wizard. Yeah! The archetypal beam spam attack is the Strike Freedom shooting all of its things at once and that's boring as hell! Darth Walrus posted:Since we were talking about the Freedom versus the Providence, this video with all the talky bits stripped out shows that it’s actually quite an interesting, tactical fight underneath it all. You can see Kira trying to feel out a way through Rau’s curtains of beams, and deciding which bits of the Freedom he can sacrifice to get a crippling hit in. Exactly! He's not in an ovepowered do-anything suit so it leads to a more interesting fight.
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May 8, 2018 23:16
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chiasaur11 posted:I was fond of how Mikazuki used pretty much every part of the Barbatos for kills at one point or another. Seeing the sub-arms put to use was a very... Mikazuki approach. It was also nice that the Barbatos tail only hit things, no guns or beams to be seen. I was sad Maxter didn’t make the list, it was my favorite G Gundam suit.
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May 8, 2018 23:31
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chiasaur11 posted:(The GM Sniper II is still the best grunt suit. It says something that it only appeared for ten seconds before dying and still made the list.) Maybe there's just a lot of Rise from the Ashes and Journey to Jaburo fans out there.
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May 8, 2018 23:40
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tsob posted:It's also not a Ball; it's a Ball that's been used as the basis to build a mobile suit off of. I'm also pretty sure it doesn't make logistical sense, since I recall Balls being nearly as big as a mobile suit. The Altas should be bigger if it uses a Ball as a torso. Or have weird proportions, with tiny limbs on a huge torso. Presumably it's just using the cockpit from the Ball. It doesn't need the thrusters or armor or all that
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