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The Notorious ZSB posted:Also 0083 Rebellion is def a better version of the events, makes most of the relationships more I guess acceptable? Place I found it on only had through chapter 51 so I assume its an ongoing thing? I'm not sure how far along that would be but they're up to volume 10 in the compilations with 11 coming out next month so it's not quite finished yet I don't think.
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Jul 21, 2018 02:59
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chiasaur11 posted:Not quite. The difference between a Gundam and a GM is the GM's lost the superfluous extra parts for speed and cost. It doesn't need an u, n, d, OR a to get the job done  .
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Jul 21, 2018 03:29
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Jim is great
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Jul 21, 2018 04:46
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Arcsquad12 posted:Jim is great Jim the Second sadly doesn't live up to his example. Seriously, the Sniper II matched its performance seven years earlier. And it was still better than the Hi-Zack. I'm not sure if the GM II ever had a moment of glory.
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Jul 22, 2018 00:59
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chiasaur11 posted:Jim the Second sadly doesn't live up to his example. Seriously, the Sniper II matched its performance seven years earlier. And it was still better than the Hi-Zack. The Nemo took the role of good guy grunt in zeta so the GM II was kinda SOL.
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Jul 22, 2018 01:02
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Droyer posted:The Nemo took the role of good guy grunt in zeta so the GM II was kinda SOL. The Nemo and the Rick Dias. Add in the GM II looking enough like the GM I that it doesn't really feel like its own suit, and it was kinda doomed from the start.
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Jul 22, 2018 01:39
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Pretty sure there were GM IIIs by the time of Double Zeta.
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Jul 22, 2018 02:10
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Wasn't the GM II just a stripped down production variant of the Custom/Quel? It's essentially a GM 1.5
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Jul 22, 2018 02:26
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HitTheTargets posted:Pretty sure there were GM IIIs by the time of Double Zeta. Yep, the GM III rolled out for the first Neo Zeon War, just not in huge numbers both because lol EFA and because they were still kind of hosed from Gryps. Arcsquad12 posted:Wasn't the GM II just a stripped down production variant of the Custom/Quel? It's essentially a GM 1.5 The GM II is basically just a GM with a linear seat and I mean that literally because a lot of GM IIs actually were original flavor GMs with Linear Seats and a few minor upgrades. Basically there's a reason the Titans immediately started churning out Marasais.
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Jul 22, 2018 02:50
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Droyer posted:The Nemo took the role of good guy grunt in zeta so the GM II was kinda SOL. From what I've heard, the GM II and the Nemo are basically identical internally, with only the exterior having any differences(which is probably why they named it that, Nemo means No One, and thus is a bit of wordplay on how AEUG and Karaba are being backed by elements of the Federation in a relatively deniable fashion), to the point where apparently a large percent of the Nemos that survived the events of Zeta and ZZ would end up being converted to GM III units Also worth mentioning that there probably existed some GM III units that had started life out as original GM units back all the way in the OYW Omnicrom posted:Yep, the GM III rolled out for the first Neo Zeon War, just not in huge numbers both because lol EFA and because they were still kind of hosed from Gryps. Well the Federation had basically been hosed in terms of materials, manpower*, and economically since the moment the OYW began, it just didn't become super obvious till after the Gryps conflict, and from that point onward the Federation would basically be in a constant decline except for a brief resurgence towards the end of the Zanscare War, and going off both Gaia Gear and G-Savior that would be a very brief one that would lead to further decline and impotence *to the point that at least one source I've seen claimed that more than half of the Federation's population by the time of Zeta were former Side 3 residents relocated to repopulate the other Sides, which is why the Federation continued to oppress the colonies, and why the Titans were so quick to resort to violent means for even the smallest reasons drrockso20 fucked around with this message at 03:09 on Jul 22, 2018 |
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Jul 22, 2018 03:07
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I dunno, around the time of Unicorn the Federation, while definitely on the downward slope economically, had the overwhelming military advantage in every regard. Frontal knew there was no way the Sleeves could challenge the EFF in a slugging match hence his wannabe continental system to strangle them economically.
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Jul 22, 2018 03:13
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Arcsquad12 posted:I dunno, around the time of Unicorn the Federation, while definitely on the downward slope economically, had the overwhelming military advantage in every regard. Frontal knew there was no way the Sleeves could challenge the EFF in a slugging match hence his wannabe continental system to strangle them economically. That's more of an example of how declined the Zeon remnants had become by that point than anything, only took a couple decades for both Mars Zeon and the Crossbone Vanguard to match up equally(or indeed superior in the latter's case) to them
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Jul 22, 2018 03:18
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No, the Nemo is a vast improvement over the GM II. It’s got movable-frame tech, it’s got a far meatier power plant, and it’s got Luna Titanium armour. It’s one of the finest mass-produced suits of the Gryps Conflict, not least because Anaheim was cutting corners on the Titans’ suits and funnelling funding and resources to the AEUG machines.
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Jul 22, 2018 03:19
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drrockso20 posted:*to the point that at least one source I've seen claimed that more than half of the Federation's population by the time of Zeta were former Side 3 residents relocated to repopulate the other Sides, which is why the Federation continued to oppress the colonies, and why the Titans were so quick to resort to violent means for even the smallest reasons That source makes no loving sense. Even aside from the fact that the Federation had a vastly larger population than Zeon even after the one week war wiping out half of humanity, and Side 6 having similar numbers to the Zekes as a third party that rejoined the Feddies after the war, the Republic of Zeon ended the war as a politically independent power. As in, they were not Federation citizens. As in, the Federation couldn't force them to repopulate the other colonies. chiasaur11 fucked around with this message at 10:13 on Aug 19, 2018 |
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Jul 22, 2018 03:38
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Darth Walrus posted:No, the Nemo is a vast improvement over the GM II. It’s got movable-frame tech, it’s got a far meatier power plant, and it’s got Luna Titanium armour. It’s one of the finest mass-produced suits of the Gryps Conflict, not least because Anaheim was cutting corners on the Titans’ suits and funnelling funding and resources to the AEUG machines. IIRC the only difference between the GM II and OG GM is a slightly upgraded powerplant and a panoramic cockpit. Pretty sure the bog-standard Hizack could outperform it.
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Jul 22, 2018 04:32
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Apparently some of the GM IIs were entirely new machines, but most of them were just upgraded RGM-79s. According to the wiki their reactor output is about 300kw higher than the original GM, so some of them perform realtively well. But it's night and day between a GM II and a GM III which even outgunned Jegans.
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Jul 22, 2018 04:48
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Arcsquad12 posted:Apparently some of the GM IIs were entirely new machines, but most of them were just upgraded RGM-79s. According to the wiki their reactor output is about 300kw higher than the original GM, so some of them perform realtively well. But it's night and day between a GM II and a GM III which even outgunned Jegans. It might have had more thrust for acceleration, but the Jegan's generator packed more muscle, and it came in a lighter package to boot. The Jegan also had a lighter standard loadout, but it was plenty to take down enemy mobile suits. If you needed anti-battleship duties, you brought in a Stark. Also, more looking back at pre-IBO chatter has people saying the days of the 50 episode Gundam were dead, discussing how it was pretty much a guarantee there'd be filler MS fights every episode, and saying how Bandai had pretty much given up on localizing things for the US. (Also, dramatically underestimating Orga's survival skills) I know that sort of thing stands out more in hindsight, but it almost feels like when people in the Origin dismiss this "mobile suit" nonsense. That Doctor Minovsky's research will never amount to anything!
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Jul 22, 2018 10:47
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chiasaur11 posted:Jim the Second sadly doesn't live up to his example. Seriously, the Sniper II matched its performance seven years earlier. Jim the Second absolutely does live up to the First's example though, because Jim the First did gently caress all in his original show too. Its only in supplemental material that the GM achieves anything of note and even then it's almost always some tricked out variant rather than a vanilla GM that does anything. There's far more supplemental material for the One Year War than the there is for the Gryps War, so there's far less chances for GM II's or variants thereof to do anything. Including some animated stuff. chiasaur11 posted:Also, more looking back at pre-IBO chatter has people saying the days of the 50 episode Gundam were dead. It's worth noting that IBO only had a 25 episode season though, and the second season was almost certainly conditional on the first being somewhat successful. Which seems to have affected the writing frankly, because the ending of season one pulls several punches and just seems kind of unwilling to commit to anything so that it's easier to make the second season whatever they want. It's still presented as a fairly self enclosed ending if there's never any more. That said, Tomino talked about how he asked for a 25 episode run for G-Reco, which implies he might have gotten a 50 episode order if he hadn't. It's probably name recognition in that instance though, even if true; Sunrise almost certainly wouldn't extend that luxury to most shows or directors. In the time since SEED Destiny only AGE had a straight 50 episode run if I recall. It was being led by a somewhat famous name too. They're definitely not giving most Gundam shows a full year run anymore and instead breaking them up in to half year seasons with a second contingent on the success of the first. There was even a recent interview with Build Fighters staff where they said this exact thing about the original show's production; with Try being it's second season/half. tsob fucked around with this message at 14:00 on Jul 22, 2018 |
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Jul 22, 2018 12:30
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tsob posted:That said, Tomino talked about how he asked for a 25 episode run for G-Reco, which implies he might have gotten a 50 episode order if he hadn't. It's probably name recognition in that instance though, even if true; Sunrise almost certainly wouldn't extend that luxury to most shows or directors. In the time since SEED Destiny only AGE had a straight 50 episode run if I recall. It was being led by a somewhat famous name too. Gundam AGE was done by Level 5 and it was apparently pitched by their president and both have a proven track record of shows that are pretty good and definitely make money (Inazuma Eleven, Yokai Watch), so they would have some degree of credibility with Sunrise. More's the pity about AGE as well because Level 5 usually makes pretty good things. Also if Try was meant to be the second half of BF that's really rather tragic.
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Jul 22, 2018 16:28
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Omnicrom posted:Also if Try was meant to be the second half of BF that's really rather tragic. It's a pretty safe bet that what got made was not what was originally planned, considering it had neither the original writer or director. It got Sunrised like Gundam 00 before it.
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Jul 22, 2018 16:44
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Neddy Seagoon posted:It's a pretty safe bet that what got made was not what was originally planned, considering it had neither the original writer or director. It got Sunrised like Gundam 00 before it. Some Gundam producers were interviewed about the influence of AGE on Build Fighters and Try, why Divers is a VR setting rather than using the Plavsky particles of the previous shows, how they're hoping to turn gunpla in to an E-Sport etc. FrontlineJP posted:https://www.frontlinejp.net/2018/07/11/gundam-as-an-e-sport-interview-with-gundam-breaker-and-gundam-anime-series-producers-1-2/
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Jul 22, 2018 16:50
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tsob posted:Some Gundam producers were interviewed about the influence of AGE on Build Fighters and Try, why Divers is a VR setting rather than using the Plavsky particles of the previous shows, how they're hoping to turn gunpla in to an E-Sport etc. That's not a 50-episode show though, that's an allotment of fifty episodes. It's a 25-episode show and a second order for another, separate, 25-episode show they'd already budgeted for, based on sales and ratings.
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Jul 22, 2018 17:00
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Neddy Seagoon posted:That's not a 50-episode show though, that's an allotment of fifty episodes. It's a 25-episode show and a second order for another, separate, 25-episode show they'd already budgeted for, based on sales and ratings. Yes, and they view it as the second half/sequel to the first season and that seems to be how Sunrise manages their mecha shows now; including Gundam ones like Iron Blood Orphans. Which is unlikely to have been planned for a 50 episode story from beginning to end either and only had a second run of 25 based on the success of the first season.
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Jul 22, 2018 17:44
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tsob posted:Yes, and they view it as the second half/sequel to the first season and that seems to be how Sunrise manages their mecha shows now; including Gundam ones like Iron Blood Orphans. Which is unlikely to have been planned for a 50 episode story from beginning to end either and only had a second run of 25 based on the success of the first season. I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to argue here, because IBO is generally considered unique among recent Gundam series for somehow managing to get its second season out with seemingly minimal interference from higher-ups. Gundam 00's the general example to go by (or Code Geass), and its second season got handheld to death by management for being too "Un-Gundam".
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Jul 22, 2018 17:55
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I'm saying that Sunrise generally make mecha shows of only 25ish episodes nowadays and approve second seasons of another 25ish episodes to make roughly 50 contingent on the success of that first season. With IBO being an example of that, since another poster listed it as an example of Sunrise making a 50 episode season. Which it isn't. And that IBO's first season ended on a bit of a wet fart so as to leave room for a second season. I'm pretty sure there was also an interview around the time the first season had just finished in which Nagai or Okada talked about how different the season panned out compared to it's initial planning and that they decided to make Naze a genuine friend and mentor to the crew and not someone who uses and betrays them like other adults based on executive push for that matter so I wouldn't be listing IBO as free of executive interference either.
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Jul 22, 2018 18:18
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The phrase "Executive interference" is a pretty loaded term as well, it assumes a negative overreach and the implication that an executive pushing for a change are out of the ordinary. In reality I'm pretty sure that nearly every show ever received at least one or two orders from the top asking for changes, you just rarely hear about them because they don't stick out as much. On the other hand I think the reason we don't see evidence of these decisions is that many of the ones end up being good for the show are the orders that come in during initial production and not halfway through a show or after something contradictory has already been established. If the decision to keep Naze as a genuine ally happened in pre-production or not long after he shows up there'd be basically no evidence that this was a change from anything at all. That's the reason why stuff like 00's (or Code Geass') iffy decisions stand-out all the more, they came in after a full season has already run its course.
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Jul 22, 2018 18:56
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Omnicrom posted:The phrase "Executive interference" is a pretty loaded term as well, it assumes a negative overreach and the implication that an executive pushing for a change are out of the ordinary. In reality I'm pretty sure that nearly every show ever received at least one or two orders from the top asking for changes, you just rarely hear about them because they don't stick out as much. I'd also point out that a lot of the changes mentioned from early plans for IBO were described in interviews as coming from Okada or Nagai, rather than outside interference, same way as Breaking Bad ditched plans to kill Jesse in season 1 since Aaron Paul had such a good dynamic with Bryan Cranston. For example, Gaelio was originally written as just McGillis's chump friend, but Okada felt there was something in Masaya Matsukaze's performance that suggested a much more interesting character, which lead to his whole arc with Ein and the second season's Gaelio related plot.
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Jul 22, 2018 21:04
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People hate seeing how the sausage is made so any obvious changes or "interference" with an imaginary perfect first draft tend to become the focus of negativity or dissatisfaction.
sassassin fucked around with this message at 22:33 on Jul 22, 2018 |
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Jul 22, 2018 21:57
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It might also be a desire to attribute all the creativity to as few individuals as possible. So the head writer or lead animator are seen as singlehandedly doing all the work. Not to mention a writer might not want to credit a suit and tie type with a well received story beat.
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Jul 22, 2018 22:22
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Also managers are dumb and evil.
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Jul 22, 2018 22:31
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Coming at it from comic books, editorially driven stories are generally profit driven. When Superman dies, or comes back to life, or gets married, or has a kid, or starts dating Wonder Woman it's generally a sign someone got handed a premise and told "write this." Which, technically, isn't bad in and of itself. Where that would line up with the way Gundam is made is the ability of editorial influence to derail a story that's already underway, for example 00 S2.
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Jul 22, 2018 22:48
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Midjack posted:Also managers are dumb and evil. Plot twist! All head writers are managers!
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Jul 22, 2018 22:49
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AtheistMantis posted:Plot twist! All head writers are managers! 
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Jul 23, 2018 02:22
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On holiday so I finally got around to watching another full season after IBO and the origin. Really enjoyed season one of 00. Thought the ending was cool and the last few bits setting up season two have piqued my interest even though I read it's not good and recent thread chat says same.
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Jul 24, 2018 12:12
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JBP posted:On holiday so I finally got around to watching another full season after IBO and the origin. Really enjoyed season one of 00. Thought the ending was cool and the last few bits setting up season two have piqued my interest even though I read it's not good and recent thread chat says same. Season 2 is really uneven and has some setting and pacing woes. I have no doubt a lot of the stuff presented in season 2 was were Gundam 00 as always going to end up, but it probably wasn't intended to be in the exact form it took and really I think the issues with the setting were probably unavoidable sadly. Personally I still rather liked it, warts and all.
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Jul 24, 2018 13:37
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Omnicrom posted:Season 2 is really uneven and has some setting and pacing woes. I have no doubt a lot of the stuff presented in season 2 was were Gundam 00 as always going to end up, but it probably wasn't intended to be in the exact form it took and really I think the issues with the setting were probably unavoidable sadly. I rewatched Wing, Seed and 00 last year after not watching any since their original run. 00 definitely aged the best, even considering the second season being what it is. The movie isn't too bad if you turn off your brain and watch for the well animated fights.
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Jul 24, 2018 13:46
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Apprentice Dick posted:The movie isn't too bad if you turn off your brain and watch for the well animated fights. You mean the truck fight, right? When he fights the truck?
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Jul 24, 2018 13:48
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Guy Goodbody posted:You mean the truck fight, right? When he fights the truck? Truck fight, guy in spacesuit fight, multiple dudes going down in a blaze of glory, and the best Flag variant of all. I like to get real high and watch anime, my taste is not to be trusted.
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Jul 24, 2018 15:05
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Apprentice Dick posted:Truck fight, guy in spacesuit fight, multiple dudes going down in a blaze of glory, and the best Flag variant of all. I like to get real high and watch anime, my taste is not to be trusted. I try to get high and watch anime, but I always lose focus because of subs or just tune out and want to watch something else idk why.
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Jul 24, 2018 15:15
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Second season of 00 isn't awful, its just not nearly as good as the first. I would rate it as solidly okay like 6/10 where season 1 is more around that 8-8.5/10 range. There is much worse Gundam than S2 of 00.
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Jul 24, 2018 22:06
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