|
jeeves posted:The post scarcity doesn't make any sense in Trek. Like in the Ensign Ro episode, Picard orders the crew to install some replicators for the Maquis-- but where do the materials for those come from? Couldn't you just replicate a whole ship? Why would you need ships then? I feel like people often mean different things by post-scarcity. You're defining it implicitly in a broad sense - which is that essentially everything is freely and abundantly available (yet we retain rich people because it is harder for us to imagine something outside of the confines of capitalist ideology than literally any grotesque torment inflicted on people). I think TNG-era trek presents a fairly narrow version where nobody in the Federation has material lack unless they voluntarily put them in that position, or due to temporary breakdowns in the technology. Now you might fairly then ask "why did they get rid of money," and I could see "to get rid of the dire incubus of the worship of material wealth" as a reason in its own right.
|
#
?
Aug 10, 2018 10:22
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 26, 2024 05:57 |
|
|
Nessus posted:Now you might fairly then ask "why did they get rid of money," and I could see "to get rid of the dire incubus of the worship of material wealth" as a reason in its own right. Picard says this drat near verbatim to the stock broker in "The Neutral Zone".
|
|
#
?
Aug 10, 2018 11:21
|
|
|
That Brexit article is great. He either completely misses the point of Star Trek, or Brexit, or both, or all three. Though man if I was on a game show and STAR TREK ON FILM came up my eyes would turn into dollar signs. Then little Enterprises. Then they'd warp away, and I'd collapse.
|
|
#
?
Aug 10, 2018 12:27
|
|
|
By the time of TNG most humans are several generations into a post-scarcity world. The attitude towards people into material possessions beyond those with sentimental value seems to be how we view hoarders in the present day. Another thing that Voyager would have explored in more depth if it didn't abandon a lot of its premises like replicator rations.
|
|
#
?
Aug 10, 2018 12:50
|
|
|
Ah yes, telling foreigners to gently caress off, the essence of Star Trek ideals.
|
|
#
?
Aug 10, 2018 13:09
|
|
|
Senor Tron posted:Another thing that Voyager would have explored in more depth if it didn't abandon a lot of its premises like replicator rations. The ideal version of Voyager would've really honed in on the idea of "Do Federation ideals really work when you take the actual Federation out of the picture?" Not unlike DS9, I guess, but that was a slightly different question, "do they work when you're at war." Both questions that are worth exploring and could bolster the core theme of Trek.
|
|
#
?
Aug 10, 2018 13:11
|
|
|
You can nitpick the money bullshit all you want, but I love the core message of Star Trek, that when money and amassing things is off the table, people work to better themselves and each other. That's such an important message, especially in this day and age Jesus. Alsomarktheando posted:Ah yes, telling foreigners to gently caress off, the essence of Star Trek ideals.
|
|
#
?
Aug 10, 2018 13:12
|
|
|
Sir Lemming posted:The ideal version of Voyager would've really honed in on the idea of "Do Federation ideals really work when you take the actual Federation out of the picture?" Not unlike DS9, I guess, but that was a slightly different question, "do they work when you're at war." Both questions that are worth exploring and could bolster the core theme of Trek. The ideal version of Voyager is BSG
|
|
#
?
Aug 10, 2018 13:12
|
|
|
New BSG is just Ron Moore working out his salt about Voyager’s continuity laziness while having an Enterprise-style Bush-era meltdown. Id say it is only superficially related to Voyager and follows far more naturally from DS9. The ideal version of Voyager would have been TAS 2 or Farscape. They tried their damnedest to make it into a cartoon anyway, and it actually improved the show. skasion fucked around with this message at 13:30 on Aug 10, 2018 |
|
#
?
Aug 10, 2018 13:21
|
|
|
I've been watching Enterprise for the first time lately. I hate Trip and Malcolm so much. Everyone else is cool, especially Porthos and Phlox. Was not expecting the Seven Samurai episode where they fight off a bunch of klingons using ewok-vs-stormtrooper tactics. And is the episode with the automated repair station supposed to be the Borg origin story?
|
|
#
?
Aug 10, 2018 13:28
|
|
|
No, just a cool mysterious one off
|
|
#
?
Aug 10, 2018 13:31
|
|
|
When Enterprise does a Borg episode, you’ll know
|
|
#
?
Aug 10, 2018 13:32
|
|
|
Windows 98 posted:Oh no the doctor is degrading "This is a sick man. This is where sick people come."
|
|
#
?
Aug 10, 2018 13:34
|
|
|
JeremoudCorbynejad posted:For those of you who enjoy a bit of brexit: Ah yes, the United Federation of Planets, comprised of many worlds and races working together for a better future under shared rules and values set out by an overarching multinational government, is obviously an argument for Brexit.
|
|
#
?
Aug 10, 2018 14:50
|
|
|
Man, I totally never noticed (largely because this is only the second time I've seen it since it first aired, just now) that Marc Alaimo was one of the first two Romulans in the post-TOS era, the captain (commander?) of the warbird in The Neutral Zone, TNG's season 1 finale. I always think of Tomalak and thus Andreas Katsulas when I think of Romulans. The first TNG+ romulan was Gul Dukat. There's something perversely appropriate about that, given they might be the two closest cultures in terms of behavior in Trek's mono-quirk-culture Universe.
|
|
#
?
Aug 10, 2018 14:51
|
|
|
Marc Alaimo also buys Data's communicator for $4 in Time's Arrow so he can ante up in a poker game. He fuckin looks amazing as a mustachioed Western card shark.
|
|
#
?
Aug 10, 2018 14:57
|
|
|
I guess I never saw the post money sort of world as all that hard to get a general sense of. Seemed pretty much exactly as described, people have whatever they want replicated, and no one is for want, so no one has a use for money in a place like earth. Even the stuff on screen, I always figured things like the Picard winery, well its something their family has been continuously running for generations and theres value in having that land worked for what amounts to artisan purposes. Private possessions are of course yours, but public scarce goods like land would be decided on a larger scale outside of the control of someone who just decides to amass it for no good reason. It makes sense to let them keep using the land as long as they're dedicated to using it for something of value. Maybe thats even why PIcard's brother is so upset about the idea of Picard running off, and giving his son wild ideas about doing the same. If theres no one left of the picard family willing to work the land, it can then be put to better use by someone else whos interested and has a passion for it. Even the question of how do people get this scarce good, Picard Wine, would be pretty simply as explained by anyone interested being on a waiting list or lottery system of a sort. The same thing works for Sisko's dad's place. If he decided to just board up the shop, its not like he could sell the property off to someone, there would probably be again a system of determining who can take over the space and if they have a solid plan and desire to use the space they can put that forward to a council of New Orleans. His customers as well probably have long waits to get in, lotteries, or maybe just not that many people are interested in hand cooked food so they aren't any more busy than a restaurant now even though its 'free'. I know I would go out less if I just had to tell a computer to make me any meal I wanted any night. The only people who even would come in contact with money would be people who decide to gently caress off to the fringes and trade goods, settle a world outside the federation, or, starfleet officers traveling among those distant stars out of the federation. In that case I'm sure the federation has systems in place to allocate funds that can be used externally on these worlds by their officers. Starfleet after all is always shown as a very selective breed of people, and I'm sure they have no problem dealing with putting aside the limited funds starfleet officers on deep space assignments would need.
|
|
#
?
Aug 10, 2018 14:59
|
|
|
A.I. Borgland Corp posted:Marc Alaimo also buys Data's communicator for $4 in Time's Arrow so he can ante up in a poker game. He fuckin looks amazing as a mustachioed Western card shark. He still looks amazingly terrifying today. I'd love to see him turn up in something like Westworld. 
|
|
#
?
Aug 10, 2018 15:17
|
|
|
A.I. Borgland Corp posted:Marc Alaimo also buys Data's communicator for $4 in Time's Arrow so he can ante up in a poker game. He fuckin looks amazing as a mustachioed Western card shark. Marc looks amazing all the time in all things
|
|
#
?
Aug 10, 2018 15:18
|
|
|
Payndz posted:Ah yes, the United Federation of Planets, comprised of many worlds and races working together for a better future under shared rules and values set out by an overarching multinational government, is obviously an argument for Brexit. Um, I think you'll find that Star Trek is about the "United Earth Space Probe Agency"* and not some kind of "Federation".  * Before February 1967
|
|
#
?
Aug 10, 2018 15:21
|
|
|
Oh no  Nichelle Nichols Diagnosed With Dementia
|
|
#
?
Aug 10, 2018 15:21
|
|
|
A.I. Borgland Corp posted:No, just a cool mysterious one off Yeah that was cool. More of that sort of thing would be good, Enterprise. Oh what's that? You want to play around with action and politics? K but it better be good! ... Enterprise! What did I just say?
|
|
#
?
Aug 10, 2018 15:24
|
|
|
drat you, Nomad.
|
|
#
?
Aug 10, 2018 15:36
|
|
|
tarlibone posted:"This is a sick man. This is where sick people come." Kes: I’m sorry. He’s dead. Doctor: This is a very sick man!
|
|
#
?
Aug 10, 2018 15:37
|
|
|
The Fuzzy Hulk posted:drat you, Nomad. 
|
|
#
?
Aug 10, 2018 16:02
|
|
|
Payndz posted:Ah yes, the United Federation of Planets, comprised of many worlds and races working together for a better future under shared rules and values set out by an overarching multinational government, is obviously an argument for Brexit. The values that ST has expressed since pretty much day one are the very antithesis of the isolationist, nationalist views of modern day right wing chuds.
|
|
#
?
Aug 10, 2018 16:05
|
|
|
Tom Guycot posted:Even the question of how do people get this scarce good, Picard Wine, would be pretty simply as explained by anyone interested being on a waiting list or lottery system of a sort. These sound like ripe conditions for a healthy black market. One that would be facilitated by using some sort of physical, durable, and untraceable means of exchange. Perhaps a small disk for easy handling, made out of an uncommon metal cast or machined in some way to ensure that it is is a legitimate exchange device.
|
|
#
?
Aug 10, 2018 16:32
|
|
|
Everyone who wants to do money on Earth either died in WW3 or left to go be an idiot rape gang colony later on, deal with it
|
|
#
?
Aug 10, 2018 16:43
|
|
|
I love imagining most of humanity on Earth wearing diaphonous robes, gathered in sunny fields together and eating fruits and making love. Whenever anyone approaches them about anything, they spend hours trying to get them undressed. "We just want you to vote on a policy bill about enforcement of the Klingon neutral zone," says the representative, unnerved. Moon-like eyes look back on them, comprehending but disinterested. "It will mean an allocation of materials--" "Is this for the good of the Universe, sibling human?" "Yeah. Yeah, definitely." Everyone gathers to kiss the offered PADD, then skips off to dance by the shore.
|
|
#
?
Aug 10, 2018 16:48
|
|
|
DS9 doesn't "unravel" the Federation utopia, it just shows that this utopia must survive in a dangerous universe and sometimes Bad Things Must Be Done on the fringes to protect it. The Federation is not a suicide pact for its members. As for money, I think it's clear that Picard's "money doesn't exist in the 24th century" statement is hyperbole, but it's also clear that the Federation itself doesn't have a government-issued currency. It's more accurate to say that there is no legal tender for trade in the Federation because there is no debt (and no taxation) in the Federation. Federation citizens can obtain and use money if they want, but you're not going to the local Magistrate with a dispute over money because it's officially not the government's problem. And a Fed citizen cannot legally owe another Fed citizen anything, ever.
|
|
#
?
Aug 10, 2018 16:49
|
|
|
Brawnfire posted:I love imagining most of humanity on Earth wearing diaphonous robes, gathered in sunny fields together and eating fruits and making love. Whenever anyone approaches them about anything, they spend hours trying to get them undressed. "We just want you to vote on a policy bill about enforcement of the Klingon neutral zone," says the representative, unnerved. Moon-like eyes look back on them, comprehending but disinterested. "It will mean an allocation of materials--" "Forgive me, brother. I appear to have stained thy knife-end with my blood. A thousand apologies."
|
|
#
?
Aug 10, 2018 16:52
|
|
|
I imagine this is what Walter Koenig was referring to either late last year or early this year (I forget when) when he said that Nichols was in trouble. 
|
|
#
?
Aug 10, 2018 16:58
|
|
|
Timby posted:I imagine this is what Walter Koenig was referring to either late last year or early this year (I forget when) when he said that Nichols was in trouble. I saw someone on Reddit earlier say they saw her at a con a couple of years telling an anecdote on stage, and then a few minutes later told the same anecdote again as though for the first time.
|
|
#
?
Aug 10, 2018 17:04
|
|
|
Brawnfire posted:I love imagining most of humanity on Earth wearing diaphonous robes, gathered in sunny fields together and eating fruits and making love. Whenever anyone approaches them about anything, they spend hours trying to get them undressed. "We just want you to vote on a policy bill about enforcement of the Klingon neutral zone," says the representative, unnerved. Moon-like eyes look back on them, comprehending but disinterested. "It will mean an allocation of materials--" That's pretty much what the non Starfleet citizens were supposed to be in the novelization of TMP. It was one of Gene's whacked out ideas that was rightfully cut out of the movie.
|
|
#
?
Aug 10, 2018 17:10
|
|
|
Evek posted:That's pretty much what the non Starfleet citizens were supposed to be in the novelization of TMP. It was one of Gene's whacked out ideas that was rightfully cut out of the movie. I think they should run with it. "We have billions of people, how can we not mount a simple resistance against invasion?" "Well, we tried to form some partisan groups... We had to explain what war was to them. They said it sounded like a bad idea." "Ooo... Kay. Well, they know they'll be wiped out if Earth is taken, right?" "Oh yeah, they just said all is ephemeral and then kept hitting a gong."
|
|
#
?
Aug 10, 2018 17:19
|
|
|
The_Doctor posted:He still looks amazingly terrifying today. I'd love to see him turn up in something like Westworld. Isn't he more or less deaf these days?
|
|
#
?
Aug 10, 2018 17:36
|
|
|
FuturePastNow posted:DS9 doesn't "unravel" the Federation utopia, it just shows that this utopia must survive in a dangerous universe and sometimes Bad Things Must Be Done on the fringes to protect it. The Federation is not a suicide pact for its members. Without any incentive to commit financial crimes or commit crimes to make money it must mean that prisons on 24th century Earth are on average filled with much worse people than ours.
|
|
#
?
Aug 10, 2018 17:40
|
|
|
F_Shit_Fitzgerald posted:"Forgive me, brother. I appear to have stained thy knife-end with my blood. A thousand apologies." An excellent episode resulting from a show staying true to its limited resources premise a few years in.
|
|
#
?
Aug 10, 2018 17:42
|
|
|
The Bloop posted:Hating memes is a meme 
|
|
#
?
Aug 10, 2018 17:43
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 26, 2024 05:57 |
|
|
JeremoudCorbynejad posted:For those of you who enjoy a bit of brexit: You know where this needs to be crossposted to.
|
|
#
?
Aug 10, 2018 17:51
|
|