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Squalid posted:Obama convened a council of national security experts to answer this question and their response was vOv As far as I know its due to the Afghan government requesting any evidence of Osama Bin Laden's involvement with 9/11, which we said "gently caress you, here's our evidence", we invaded, and he was killed almost 10 years ago, and now we're there because... ??? ....sell them Ford's to drive on some highways we made there? Whats the US goal/endgame? Occupy until we've managed to stamp out mindcrime or any resentment created out from murdering civilians? ...end communism? It feels like we're just there to justify our bloated military. Gotta invade something, I guess. Deteriorata posted:The Taliban were giving safe harbor to Al Qaeda and they were using that as a base for global terrorist operations. Thus it was decided that the Taliban taking over the whole country would be a very bad result.
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Sep 11, 2018 04:24
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Sneakster posted:As far as I know its due to the Afghan government requesting any evidence of Osama Bin Laden's involvement with 9/11, which we said "gently caress you, here's our evidence", we invaded, and he was killed almost 10 years ago, and now we're there because... ??? ....sell them Ford's to drive on some highways we made there? Whats the US goal/endgame? Occupy until we've managed to stamp out mindcrime or any resentment created out from murdering civilians? ...end communism? It feels like we're just there to justify our bloated military. Gotta invade something, I guess. Ah, my apologies. I thought you were asking a sincere question in good faith. I see rather that you're here to push an agenda. so I will proceed to ignore you.
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Sep 11, 2018 04:30
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I’m gonna go out and say it; the Parchami PDPA were actually the good guys the entire time.
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Sep 11, 2018 04:40
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Sneakster posted:...was this the civil war instigated by the US funding religious extremists in the 80's when the soviets were bringing radical communist doctrines to the area, like "women are people"? The mujahideen had overwhelming popular support. Nobody "instigated" the war.
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Sep 11, 2018 04:42
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fishmech posted:To be clear he did: his father set up that domination in his 29 years before Bashar took over and continued it. You are aware both he and his brother Maher are married to Sunnis right?
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Sep 11, 2018 04:43
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Volkerball posted:The mujahideen had overwhelming popular support. Nobody "instigated" the war. The Mujahideen were incredible pieces of poo poo but the Soviets were retards that couldn’t stop murdering and raping civilians and the Khalqis were the dumbest motherfuckers imagineable. Frond fucked around with this message at 04:47 on Sep 11, 2018 |
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Sep 11, 2018 04:44
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Volkerball posted:The mujahideen had overwhelming popular support. Nobody "instigated" the war. Amin and Taraki did through gross incompetence.
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Sep 11, 2018 04:47
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Frond posted:You are aware both he and his brother Maher are married to Sunnis right? And HP Lovecraft married a Jewish lady.
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Sep 11, 2018 04:51
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Deteriorata posted:Ah, my apologies. I thought you were asking a sincere question in good faith. I see rather that you're here to push an agenda. so I will proceed to ignore you. I'm in that intellectual grey area where I'm aware of some of the elements at play, but not everything, so I'm desperately trying to comprehend the last piece of the puzzle. What is the goal of the US in Afghanistan at this point? The entire reason, full stop, was Osama Bin Laden. That ended in 2011. What the hell is the US military there for at this point in time? What is the objective at this point? Beyond a humanitarian fig leaf, why am I invested enough to send people across the planet to point guns at... ???
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Sep 11, 2018 04:52
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The big reason is the fear that in the absence of heavy US support for the Afghans, you'll see something like the rise of ISIS in Iraq, with cities like Kandahar and Kabul coming under real attack from the Taliban. The US could leave and easily end up right back there with the state of things currently.
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Sep 11, 2018 04:55
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Volkerball posted:The big reason is the fear that in the absence of heavy US support for the Afghans, you'll see something like the rise of ISIS in Iraq, with cities like Kandahar and Kabul coming under real attack from the Taliban. The US could leave and easily end up right back there with the state of things currently.
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Sep 11, 2018 05:00
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Sneakster posted:So... we should install some relatively secular strongman to maintain trade with the west? Judging by your comments about the Soviet intervention this would seem to please you.
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Sep 11, 2018 05:04
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Frond posted:I’m gonna go out and say it; the Parchami PDPA were actually the good guys the entire time. lol yes, the noble Parchami, so different from the corrupt foreign stooges who now run Kabul. If only the Afghan government still had patriotic parchamis like Abdul Dostum to lead it, then things would be different! Oh wait. 
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Sep 11, 2018 05:06
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Grape posted:Judging by your comments about the Soviet intervention this would seem to please you. The Mujahideen were the most incompetent shitlords imagineable (also they loved to have sex with children).
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Sep 11, 2018 05:09
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Sneakster posted:I'm sincere, it's just that... I can't think of an actual reason we're there, except to somehow fight a combination of elements who rightfully resent having their loved ones killed and and reactionary elements the US armed and trained. Lock-Mart/Boeing/etc.'s profit margins would crumble if we stopped shoveling hundreds of billions of dollars their way for shiny new murder toys, so we need an excuse to keep buying murder toys and blowing up random poo poo on the other side of the planet is as good as any. If we stopped in Afghanistan we'd just have to find someone else's lives to ruin, so why go through the effort. Crazycryodude fucked around with this message at 05:22 on Sep 11, 2018 |
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Sep 11, 2018 05:18
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Frond posted:The Mujahideen were the most incompetent shitlords imagineable (also they loved to have sex with children). I have bad news for you about about the parchami
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Sep 11, 2018 05:21
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Crazycryodude posted:Lock-Mart/Boeing/etc.'s profit margins would crumble if we stopped shoveling billions of dollars their way for shiny new murder toys, so we need an excuse to keep buying murder toys and blowing up random poo poo on the other side of the planet is as good as any. If we stopped in Afghanistan we'd just have to find someone else's lives to ruin, so why go through the effort.
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Sep 11, 2018 05:23
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Starting.... today, actually, it will be possible for a kid born after 9/11 to join the Army and go die in the rear end end of nowhere for some nebulously defined mumblings about "terrorism". Not only do they not remember and were not affected by the supposed reason for this whole loving Forever War, they literally didn't even exist. I've got a friend actively deployed right this very second who doesn't remember 9/11, the lower enlisted ranks are already full of teenagers who have no memory of a country in a state of peace. And now it's gonna start filling out with people who have never even been alive while the country was at peace, much less remember what peace is like. These days it's not about terrorism, it's not about nation building, none of that bullshit (if it ever was to begin with). It's about a combination of sheer inertia, making money for defense companies, and satisfying the racist bloodlust of a bunch of idiot Boomers and Gen X'ers who had their brains shattered by an event none of us even loving remember. That's why the US is still in Afghanistan.
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Sep 11, 2018 05:35
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Crazycryodude posted:Starting.... today, actually, it will be possible for a kid born after 9/11 to join the Army and go die in the rear end end of nowhere for some nebulously defined mumblings about "terrorism". Not only do they not remember and were not affected by the supposed reason for this whole loving Forever War, they literally didn't even exist. I've got a friend actively deployed right this very second who doesn't remember 9/11, the lower enlisted ranks are already full of teenagers who have no memory of a country in a state of peace. And now it's gonna start filling out with people who have never even been alive while the country was at peace, much less remember what peace is like.
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Sep 11, 2018 05:40
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Has been for at least a decade if not longer
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Sep 11, 2018 05:43
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Sneakster posted:Wait, so why is the US in Afghanistan again? Bush got in and didn't want to be seen as a failure after it became a stalemate. Obama was given it and didn't want to be called a pussy for pulling out. Trump has it now and wants to signal that he's generally tough and "pro troops" by sending them to get IEDd in far away lands.
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Sep 11, 2018 05:47
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But what about those slick commercials with rock music about being all you can be while blowing up somewhere else?
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Sep 11, 2018 05:51
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There isn't a state of war in America and hasn't been for like maybe 65 years at the latest. Also defense companies make plenty of money on things that are impossible to ever deploy and use, like the F35. And how many people are even deployed from the US there? It's like 13,000 now or something, barely a blip. The whole thing about Afghanistan is its such a minor thing to Americans that most people are barely aware it's still there.
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Sep 11, 2018 05:52
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Sneakster posted:I'm sincere, it's just that... I can't think of an actual reason we're there, except to somehow fight a combination of elements who rightfully resent having their loved ones killed and and reactionary elements the US armed and trained. If the US completely left Afghanistan it would fall to the Taliban very quickly, and they would start training terrorists again to attack the US and its allies. By continuing to fight the Taliban in Afghanistan the war against terror is kept off of US soil. You know how Trump keeps saying the US needs a wall to stop terrorists from crossing the border and committing terror attacks? That might actually become a tangible concern if the Taliban and Al-Qaeda are given some breathing room so they can actually train and plan terror attacks against the US.
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Sep 11, 2018 05:59
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Why would they attack the US?
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Sep 11, 2018 06:03
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Sneakster posted:Why would they attack the US? Israel.
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Sep 11, 2018 06:04
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qkkl posted:Israel. And military bases all around Arabia.
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Sep 11, 2018 06:05
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so that means I can be a cheapskate and post about posting instead of having some wit or spending any more on comedy avs for people. Which I'm also incapable of. Comedy.
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I can't help but feel like this conflict is the idealized dream of a bunch of old men that coincidentally can be used to stifle local reforms under some horse poo poo that not killing people I've never met who's customs I'm barely familiar with would be some kind of treason because we have to maintain the old hierarchies according to assholes who profit off the way things are.
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Sep 11, 2018 06:12
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Volkerball posted:The big reason is the fear that in the absence of heavy US support for the Afghans, you'll see something like the rise of ISIS in Iraq, with cities like Kandahar and Kabul coming under real attack from the Taliban. The US could leave and easily end up right back there with the state of things currently. ISIS is already in Afghanistan and the Taliban are doing more on the ground to combat them than the coalition. The situation has degraded beyond hyperbolic hypotheticals.
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Sep 11, 2018 08:36
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Sneakster posted:I can't help but feel like this conflict is the idealized dream of a bunch of old men that coincidentally can be used to stifle local reforms under some horse poo poo that not killing people I've never met who's customs I'm barely familiar with would be some kind of treason because we have to maintain the old hierarchies according to assholes who profit off the way things are. I share the general cynicism wrt why the US engages in wars and why the US has remained in afghanistan so long, but there's also a reality that the US leaving would create a vacuum and that none of the options of who would fill that vacuum are desirable (speaking on an international level) to almost anyone. Like you can't exactly turn the country over to the taliban, but basically every alternative is just as bad in some other way. Much of the last decade Afghanistan was run as practically a mafia state that produced unbelievable amounts of heroin. Ironically while the taliban are ostensibly anti-heroin, you then have the slight problem of the literal loving taliban being in charge of the country. If forced to guess, the hope currently is that if the conflict can be kept at a low intensity (from an American perspective anyways) indefinitely, eventually someone with enough local sway who is minimally, barely, vaguely palatable to western interests will emerge and can be endorsed and supported. Realistically, that seems unlikely. TBH it's questionable if Afghanistan can even continue to exist as a unified country.
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Sep 11, 2018 09:44
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Herstory Begins Now posted:I share the general cynicism wrt why the US engages in wars and why the US has remained in afghanistan so long, but there's also a reality that the US leaving would create a vacuum and that none of the options of who would fill that vacuum are desirable (speaking on an international level) to almost anyone. Like you can't exactly turn the country over to the taliban, but basically every alternative is just as bad in some other way. Much of the last decade Afghanistan was run as practically a mafia state that produced unbelievable amounts of heroin. Ironically while the taliban are ostensibly anti-heroin, you then have the slight problem of the literal loving taliban being in charge of the country.
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Sep 11, 2018 09:58
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....so, we're in Afghanistan to score heroin?
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Sep 11, 2018 10:04
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Sneakster posted:....so, we're in Afghanistan to score heroin? That's either part of it, or a fortunate side effect of it.
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Sep 11, 2018 10:24
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Sneakster posted:What is the goal of the US in Afghanistan at this point? The entire reason, full stop, was Osama Bin Laden. That ended in 2011. That actually ended in 2002, when the Bush administration succeeded in redirecting the popular anger from 9/11 to Saddam Hussein.
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Sep 11, 2018 11:18
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Sneakster posted:....so, we're in Afghanistan to score heroin? That was definitely the effect, even if it wasn't the intent. The Taliban banned opium farming, and it dramatically cut global supply. Then we overthrew them and tried implementing eradication efforts of our own, but various warlords in the government were cashing in either directly or by taking bribes to protect farmers. At some point the Taliban said gently caress it and started cashing in too, presumably because getting paid to poison the West no longer sounds unappealing.
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Sep 11, 2018 12:53
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I'm reading a book that just came out by a veteran Israeli journalist, Ron Ben-Yishai, called Frontline Reporter (כתב חזית, not sure if and when it'll be translated into English). I'm right in the middle of the chapter on his reporting on Afghanistan, and the Mujahideen were a hosed up bunch. I hesitate to provide a summary of what he wrote, because I don't really know enough about the history of the country, but if anything stands out I might post it.
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Sep 11, 2018 12:58
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Crazycryodude posted:Starting.... today, actually, it will be possible for a kid born after 9/11 to join the Army and go die in the rear end end of nowhere for some nebulously defined mumblings about "terrorism". Not only do they not remember and were not affected by the supposed reason for this whole loving Forever War, they literally didn't even exist. I've got a friend actively deployed right this very second who doesn't remember 9/11, the lower enlisted ranks are already full of teenagers who have no memory of a country in a state of peace. And now it's gonna start filling out with people who have never even been alive while the country was at peace, much less remember what peace is like. quote:He said the mujahedeen fighters did the same thing to the Soviet Union in Afghanistan in the 1980s, "using guerrilla warfare and the war of attrition to fight tyrannical superpowers."
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Sep 11, 2018 14:15
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Well, it's working
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Sep 11, 2018 15:57
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Russian propaganda about false flag attacks being prepared in Idlib is going full pelt, this is their latest claim:quote:Filming of staged chemical attack in Syria’s Idlib begins, Russian top brass says
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Sep 11, 2018 16:18
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I gotta wonder if they're nudging Assad to make an attack just so all this PR isnt wasted.
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Sep 11, 2018 16:59
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