|
Drink-Mix Man posted:Well, Discovery did had some not-so-subtle allegory last season. "Make the Empire Great Again," for example. gently caress I can't wait for ten years from now when this lovely fuckin' phrase stops showing up in every single dumbshit piece of fuckin fiction gently caress
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2018 22:19
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 11, 2024 20:49 |
|
|
Whalley posted:gently caress I can't wait for ten years from now when this lovely fuckin' phrase stops showing up in every single dumbshit piece of fuckin fiction gently caress It’s gonna age just as well as all the early 2000s jack bauer-terrorism-hard choices poo poo
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2018 22:23
|
|
|
What really gets me is that when people get woke, and they revisit things they love, they're openly critical of the bad things the things they love did. Like, I love Christmas Story but I can still point at its horribly racist ending and be like, "that was wrong and bad," but once people get Redpilled, they don't do that at all. They twist themselves in knots justifying why things they loved that are antithetical to their current worldview are actually okay, because reasons. It really demonstrates the difference between the two types of thinking.
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2018 22:24
|
|
|
LividLiquid posted:Real talk, it's because anti-SJWs are always okay with poo poo they hate if they saw it before they got redpilled. I've noticed that too, I think it's the most irritating part of the mindset. Constantly holding up media as examples of what "traditions" they want, but the media in question was subverting previous storytelling tropes. From the perspective of the usual sci-fi/fantasy fan of the era, Princess Leia would have been a sort of a feminist subversion of the usual helpless princess, giving her a will, an attitude, and a gun. But continuing that feminist push into having women as authority figures and having them tell off men who gently caress up is somehow a bridge too far, now. It's absurd.
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2018 22:24
|
|
|
Whalley posted:gently caress I can't wait for ten years from now when this lovely fuckin' phrase stops showing up in every single dumbshit piece of fuckin fiction gently caress For real: somebody put "MAGA" in autobot script on one of this year's Transformers figures. poo poo's out of hand. (People were rightly annoyed and it's been removed on subsequent releases)
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2018 22:26
|
|
|
Brawnfire posted:I've noticed that too, I think it's the most irritating part of the mindset. Constantly holding up media as examples of what "traditions" they want, but the media in question was subverting previous storytelling tropes. From the perspective of the usual sci-fi/fantasy fan of the era, Princess Leia would have been a sort of a feminist subversion of the usual helpless princess, giving her a will, an attitude, and a gun. But continuing that feminist push into having women as authority figures and having them tell off men who gently caress up is somehow a bridge too far, now. It's absurd. I choose this time to vent something: there's also an element that won't let you critique something without immediately claiming that you have alterior bad motives. Like in The Last Jedi, I thought Holdo was terrible. You say that and you get pounced on because you get called a sexist and have to spend your efforts defending your personal integrity rather than discussing the events of a movie that led you to question the character itself.
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2018 22:43
|
|
|
Sash! posted:I choose this time to vent something: there's also an element that won't let you critique something without immediately claiming that you have alterior bad motives. Like in The Last Jedi, I thought Holdo was terrible. You say that and you get pounced on because you get called a sexist and have to spend your efforts defending your personal integrity rather than discussing the events of a movie that led you to question the character itself.
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2018 23:03
|
|
|
"I'm not sexist, but..."
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2018 23:07
|
|
|
LividLiquid posted:When tens of thousands of manchildren hate a character because she's a woman in power who doesn't immediately defer to a man who's her subordinate, maybe state your case in a way that clarifies that you are not, in point of fact, just being sexist. It's often impossible to do this to an attacker's satisfaction.
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2018 23:20
|
|
|
LividLiquid posted:When tens of thousands of manchildren hate a character because she's a woman in power who doesn't immediately defer to a man who's her subordinate, maybe state your case in a way that clarifies that you are not, in point of fact, just being sexist. yeah if your viewpoints match up with the scuzzfuckiest of society it's on you to explain why yours differ from theirs
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2018 23:28
|
|
|
Drink-Mix Man posted:Well, Discovery did had some not-so-subtle allegory last season. "Make the Empire Great Again," for example. I liked when people complained about that being on the nose and I'm just like, have you seen Star Trek before? I like more subtle commentary but having a dude come on screen holding a giant arrow that says LOOK HERE FOR MESSAGE would be pretty much in line with Trek's level of subtlety.
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2018 23:38
|
|
|
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3K6n-QFm7Pc
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2018 23:48
|
|
|
Grand Fromage posted:I liked when people complained about that being on the nose and I'm just like, have you seen Star Trek before? I like more subtle commentary but having a dude come on screen holding a giant arrow that says LOOK HERE FOR MESSAGE would be pretty much in line with Trek's level of subtlety. I know people who like Star Trek, but seem to like it for pew-pew lasers and  and get really annoyed at the Orville for being "too politically correct" and then when I point out that Star Trek did the exact same thing they say it was more subtle and "less preachy" about it. 
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2018 23:58
|
|
|
Whalley posted:yeah if your viewpoints match up with the scuzzfuckiest of society it's on you to explain why yours differ from theirs lol at basing so much of your identity off a media franchise that anyone who dislikes it has to be some kind of repulsive other
|
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2018 00:05
|
|
|
No, you piece of poo poo, my little sister truly cannot be this cute! I'll loving destroy you!!!
|
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2018 00:17
|
|
|
Whalley posted:gently caress I can't wait for ten years from now when this lovely fuckin' phrase stops showing up in every single dumbshit piece of fuckin fiction gently caress Dukat outright said in one episode that he'd make Cardassia great again, years before Trump.  Still, narcissistic sociopathic tyrant and rapist. Eerily prescient.
|
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2018 00:35
|
|
|
Tunicate posted:lol at basing so much of your identity off a media franchise that anyone who dislikes it has to be some kind of repulsive other
|
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2018 00:41
|
|
|
Cythereal posted:Dukat outright said in one episode that he'd make Cardassia great again, years before Trump. Im sure when the greatest generation guys get to that one they'll deem it "too on the nose"
|
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2018 00:43
|
|
|
LividLiquid posted:When tens of thousands of manchildren hate a character because she's a woman in power who doesn't immediately defer to a man who's her subordinate, maybe state your case in a way that clarifies that you are not, in point of fact, just being sexist. You can't even get to that point before you're already on the defensive about something that never happened. I briefly thought the character was getting set up to replace Leia, which I thought was neat, but then you get this character that never really seemed to have control of the situation and never presented that she was capable of doing so (the whole "well if Leia was here" quoting made her seem like she was too busy deferring to a supposedly dead person instead of displaying confidence). Everyone always grabs on to the "she didn't need to explain it to Poe, but drat like half the ship had no idea that there was actually a plan. That's some lousy delegation. I actually felt let down, because I had immediate high hopes of getting an interesting new character to transition from an actual dead person. Cool death tough.
|
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2018 01:14
|
|
|
Wait there are people who liked Laura Dern's character?
|
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2018 05:21
|
|
|
Alan_Shore posted:Wait there are people who liked Laura Dern's character? I have no problem with the character, but Dern seemed extremely miscast for the role. And that’s crazy because she’s usually great.
|
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2018 05:23
|
|
|
I would argue that Star Trek (and science fiction in general)'s use of allegory and the like is one of its greatest strengths. If you make a work that provokes - for example - racists into calling it poo poo, then what's the point of it? Better to have the racists agree that the blue aliens and green aliens should get along. Maybe some will learn things they can apply to their own views and experiences. You cannot force on people exposure to things they don't like. Of course there's other aspects to these things as well like representation and battling marginalization or ignorance, but a multitude of approaches are valid. That people who disagree with Star Trek's values still watch Star Trek is a sign of its social success.
|
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2018 05:35
|
|
|
I don’t think it’s a stretch to say that Sci-Fi & Fantasy (and even Horror) is at its best when it has something to say. There’s a reason that The Twilight Zone, which was essentially five seasons of largely unsubtle morality plays, is still held up as a shining example of what the genre is capable of. I’m mostly fine with people understanding the message but still disagreeing with it because they’re still willing to continue watching it and be exposed to that kind of message. But when you have someone who refuses to acknowledge the intent behind the script and insists on a purely surface-level enjoyment, that’s where I take issue. Especially with Star Trek, a show that’s always worn it’s message on its sleeve.
|
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2018 06:15
|
|
|
mossyfisk posted:I would argue that Star Trek (and science fiction in general)'s use of allegory and the like is one of its greatest strengths. Agreed. I think it's also a bit unfair to tar some people with a shitlord brush just because they don't 100% agree with the Objectively Correct opinions on all issues. There are some people who don't just agree with All Left Opinions on all topics or All Right Opinions on all topics. Like, you might be a Star Trek fan who agrees that racism is bad, gays should have equal rights, but doesn't want Full Communism Now. Just maybe. 
|
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2018 06:18
|
|
|
But Star Trek isn't full communism. Unless I've hosed up spectacularly Edit: a quick Google shows it's very communist ("pure" communist?). I guess I only associate communism with Russia and China and.... Oh boy. Alan_Shore fucked around with this message at 06:32 on Nov 7, 2018 |
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2018 06:29
|
|
|
The Federation is much more like what Marx was actually talking about than any real "communist" state that's existed, yeah. There's still a state though so not quite, but communism is the closest thing you could compare it to. Or extremely socialist I guess?
|
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2018 06:42
|
|
|
Sash! posted:You can't even get to that point before you're already on the defensive about something that never happened.
|
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2018 06:49
|
|
|
Grand Fromage posted:The Federation is much more like what Marx was actually talking about than any real "communist" state that's existed, yeah. There's still a state though so not quite, but communism is the closest thing you could compare it to. Or extremely socialist I guess? We see and hear a lot about the Federation and Starfleet . But what about the actual politics/government of Earth? Do the shows ever touch on it? I can't remember. Maybe DS9 does.
|
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2018 07:24
|
|
|
The Federation is the government of Earth, so they mention a Federation President a couple times, most notably in Undiscovered Country. Enterprise mentioned a United Earth government a couple times and it seemed like an evolution of the UN.
|
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2018 07:28
|
|
|
United Earth was basically the proto-Federation. It's what formed in the aftermath of WWIII and Cochran making first contact. United Earth is still what the Earth government calls itself, and it is a member of the Federation. There are UE officials elected to positions within the Federation.
|
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2018 07:39
|
|
|
I didn't know it was called United Earth. The Federation is basically a galactic UN (started by Earth) I think?
|
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2018 07:43
|
|
|
Did they ever discuss in the episode where Bajor was just about to join the Federation what would happen to people like Kira and Odo? Like, would they automatically get Starfleet commissions, or would the Bajoran militia remain as a separate local security force, or would there be a transition period?
|
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2018 07:49
|
|
|
Alan_Shore posted:I didn't know it was called United Earth. The Federation is basically a galactic UN (started by Earth) I think? The Federation is more like a space USA; the UN has much, much less power over its constituent members than the Federation has been shown (the UN isn't even a governing body, for one thing). This is hardly surprising considering Star Trek's been developed mostly by Americans to be a broad allegory for American social and political issues.
|
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2018 07:51
|
|
|
Alan_Shore posted:I didn't know it was called United Earth. The Federation is basically a galactic UN (started by Earth) I think? Yeah. Earth, Vulcan, the Andorian Empire and Tellar, and the seat of the Federation's power is located in San Francisco and Paris on Earth.
|
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2018 08:12
|
|
|
McSpanky posted:The Federation is more like a space USA; the UN has much, much less power over its constituent members than the Federation has been shown (the UN isn't even a governing body, for one thing). This is hardly surprising considering Star Trek's been developed mostly by Americans to be a broad allegory for American social and political issues. Would certainly explain why all Starfleet ships have the USS prefix before the ship name, despite the US being a singular part of a world government.
|
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2018 08:14
|
|
|
Gonz posted:Would certainly explain why all Starfleet ships have the USS prefix before the ship name, despite the US being a singular part of a world government. The US leveraged its buy-in to the world government being exclusive rights to arm and supply the spaceborne branch of the military, which gets grandfathered in to Earth Starfleet becoming the Federation Starfleet during the UFP negotiations; technically all Starfleet vessels are American and still produced under Naval Construction Contract for the United States Spaceforce 
|
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2018 08:50
|
|
|
The Federation President shows up in DS9, an alien who didn't even want the job but got voted in.
|
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2018 08:59
|
|
|
EvilTaytoMan posted:I know people who like Star Trek, but seem to like it for pew-pew lasers and Apparently they never saw "Let That Be Your Last Battlefield" which was about as subtle as a crate of anvils falling down a flight of stairs onto a grand piano. Gonz posted:Would certainly explain why all Starfleet ships have the USS prefix before the ship name, despite the US being a singular part of a world government. I always thought it just meant "United Star Ship" instead of "United States Ship" but then again Starship is one word not two so
|
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2018 09:11
|
|
|
Angry_Ed posted:I always thought it just meant "United Star Ship" instead of "United States Ship" but then again Starship is one word not two so The most reasonable one I heard was "United Starfleet Starship", as in "United Federation of Planets" but abbreviated because "UFPSS" is a bit clunky. Logically it would be "FSS" but they already put the U on there in TOS :welp:
|
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2018 09:38
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 11, 2024 20:49 |
|
|
The Enterprise is referred to as both the "United Starship Enterprise" and "United Spaceship Enterprise" in TOS. In the series bible USS was said to stand for United Space Ship. Seems more likely given post-TOS to assume it's United Federation of Planets Starship, though. 'SS' seems to be the common prefix for civilian ships, too. MikeJF fucked around with this message at 09:55 on Nov 7, 2018 |
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2018 09:52
|
|
