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Main Paineframe posted:Describing either side of the Mueller fight as a carefully considered legal position is, I think, a bit of an exaggeration. It's more like a partisan political slapfight. in addition to this, the legal mythology that attempts to characterize The Law, Golden And Eternal, as something beyond a partisan political slapfight is part of the underlying brain rot here who's ready for the 5/4 decision establishing birthright citizenship isn't actually a thing, because of some new legal concept John Roberts invents on the spot?
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Nov 9, 2018 17:41
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The criminalization of common and harmless behaviors and simultaneous de facto amnesty for white collar crime past a certain scale do more to undermine Rule of Law than a hundred Mueller firings and lovely Attorneys General. I don't have any tears for Rule of Law when it wasn't worthy of rule in the first place.
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Nov 9, 2018 17:41
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Mahoning posted:https://twitter.com/brianschatz/status/1060934884724682752 To be fair, it's because 2016 PTSD is a hell of a drug, and we're used to recount shenanigans being used to discredit favorable results for Democrats.
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Nov 9, 2018 17:41
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https://twitter.com/jvn/status/1060935268830724096
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Nov 9, 2018 17:41
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Mahoning posted:https://twitter.com/brianschatz/status/1060934884724682752 Technically, that would require otherwise smart posters.
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Nov 9, 2018 17:42
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TheScott2K posted:I think the crux of the issue is that a lot of the people sermoning about Rule of Law appear to be agitating for a return to a status quo that failed a huge number of Americans for a very long time. "Independent DoJ" doesn't look like the inherent good it's presented as when it spent decades independently kneecapping vulnerable Americans and glossing over the crimes of powerful ones. people sermoning about the Rule of Law right now are saying "do not make it worse". an independent DOJ doesn't need to be inherently good in all circumstances for it to not be trivially obvious that an independent DOJ is miles better than a DOJ under the personal control of trump. people in this forum have this constant problem with a complete inability to see shades of grey. that something can get worse does not mean the status quo is Good. it's not binary. so "well, things are bad" isn't a response to "don't make them worse" unless you think there's only two options, Good and Bad. that's obviously not true. saying "trump getting control over the DOJ is a significant step towards authoritarianism and weakening the rule of law" does not mean that the rule of law has been perfectly maintained prior to today. claiming that's what it means is stupid. like, for example, we all know that america - even today - is not a perfect democracy. we have voter supression, gerrymandering, all sorts of stuff that weakens the people's control over the government in favor of the connected, rich, powerful, etc. but if trump were to abolish elections, that would be a bad thing. if someone was to idiotically bleat about "well, brian kemp has made a mockery of elections, so why should we care?" they would be correct on the factual issue that brian kemp has made a mockery of his election and should be in jail, but they and their broader point would be stupid, because abolishing elections would be making things much, much worse even given the factual predicate that our elections are currently nowhere near where they need to be. you do not fix things by going "well, they're bad now, who cares if they're made worse"
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Nov 9, 2018 17:42
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Mahoning posted:https://twitter.com/brianschatz/status/1060934884724682752 This is good, FOR TRUMP! I think that 2016 ptsd and the GOP not giving a gently caress makes everyone pessimistic about anything good that happens.
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Nov 9, 2018 17:43
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We still spent more than like the next 10 countries on the list combined on defense under Obama; Trump is so, so stupid.
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Nov 9, 2018 17:43
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sean10mm posted:Also Trump doing a bad thing that was previously done by somebody else isn't a reason to not attack him for it. What the gently caress kind of sadbrains They're saying to pick HOW to attack him better. Trying to appeal to ~rule of law~ has never, ever worked on the rich because it's never actually affected them
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Nov 9, 2018 17:43
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logic is that?
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Mustached Demon posted:That's a wrong impression of the flu to begin with and a good place to start when dealing with misconceptions about it. Flu knocks a healthy, young human on their rear end for a week usually. Then there's the unlucky ones who are in that group who suffer complications and just die because flu gives zero fucks. i've learned something today! but i think this sort of reinforces my underlying point, that skepticism about the flu shot is not really anti-vaxxer nonsense where people have the correct facts but willfully refuse to believe them, it's more just people making bad decisions because they have bad information.
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Nov 9, 2018 17:44
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evilweasel posted:yeah, it is monumentally stupid to bitch about past times where the rule of law was not followed and come to the conclusion "and that's why we should abolish the rule of law" Nobody’s arguing this
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Nov 9, 2018 17:45
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Yinlock posted:They're saying to pick HOW to attack him better. Trying to appeal to ~rule of law~ has never, ever worked on the rich because it's never actually affected them this is stupid argument #2, that People Can't Care About Two Things, that is even dumber than stupid argument #1, Everything Is Only Good Or Bad
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Nov 9, 2018 17:45
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The "...for you and you and you" just makes it sound like some dinner-theatre musical
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Nov 9, 2018 17:45
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CuddleCryptid posted:It also doesn't help that getting the flu shot can still give you an immune response, leading to "I got the flu shot and I still got the flu, it didn't work!" mentality. It also takes over a week for your body to produce enough antibodies so sometimes you get the unfortunate luck of catching the bug despite vaccination. Then you have people convinced the shot gave them the flu, le sigh.
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Nov 9, 2018 17:45
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CuddleCryptid posted:It also doesn't help that getting the flu shot can still give you an immune response, leading to "I got the flu shot and I still got the flu, it didn't work!" mentality. That's where education about the sniffles vs flu helps! Plus ya know conversations about the vaccine. Also please get poked goons if your insurance covers it or you can afford it.
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Nov 9, 2018 17:46
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Chomskyan posted:Nobody’s arguing this yes, they are. they're just not saying it in those words because those words make it clear the point is stupid, but that is what the argument boils down to.
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Nov 9, 2018 17:46
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Well, if we assume Trump is talking to reporters, and we assume Obama is somehow responsible for Trump being elected, then Obama did indeed help make the country very unsafe for reporters. But then, u and me are asses.
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Nov 9, 2018 17:47
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Obviously these are the normal dementia-addled ramblings, but it's so jarring that the President is openly accusing political enemies of criminal behavior when they're only participating in the normal vote-counting process. This constant unchallenged repetition of anti-democratic sentiment is dangerous as it emboldens a demographic with no loyalty to democracy or the rule of law beyond it providing access to power. Once they take control it's very difficult to get them out again. On this point America is so so lucky Trump is not a Bolsonaro. HappyHippo posted:"Tribal epistemology" like this is definitely a feature of what's been happening on the right over the past decade This is an interesting read and thanks for posting it. David Roberts writes a lot of good stuff. InsertPotPun posted:Because the headline will NEVER include the word "falsely" or "lies" or even a small "(Mueller was not required in any way to be senate confirmed)". They just won't do it. trump is throwing up a verbal smokescreen at all times. So, the next time you're arguing with a trumper about how trump is literally being bribed through his business and, at this point, ONLY people who stay in his hotels for huge prices or pay dues to his golf club that frequently is in trouble for hiring undocumented workers, they'll simply say "Why wasn't Mueller confirmed by the Senate?" aaaaaaand boom. This reminded me of an often-quoted section of Sartre's Anti-Semite and Jew: Sartre posted:Never believe that anti‐Semites are completely unaware of the absurdity of their replies. They know that their remarks are frivolous, open to challenge. But they are amusing themselves, for it is their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly, since he believes in words. The anti‐Semites have the right to play. They even like to play with discourse for, by giving ridiculous reasons, they discredit the seriousness of their interlocutors. They delight in acting in bad faith, since they seek not to persuade by sound argument but to intimidate and disconcert. If you press them too closely, they will abruptly fall silent, loftily indicating by some phrase that the time for argument is past. It is not that they are afraid of being convinced. They fear only to appear ridiculous or to prejudice by their embarrassment their hope of winning over some third person to their side. Call it bad faith, Gish galloping, inner vs outer narratives etc it's a fundamentally insincere form of argument. It's the other side of the rhetorical coin to empty slogans like "make America great again" or "Blut und Boden".
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Nov 9, 2018 17:47
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Fritz Coldcockin posted:We still spent more than like the next 10 countries on the list combined on defense under Obama; Trump is so, so stupid. It's pretty impressive that Obama cut future military spending and decreased the growth rate of defense spending - therefore reducing the amount it would rise in the future, but not directly lowering it immediately - and that translates into "all of our jeeps only have one wheel now." To be fair, we have not definitely ruled out the possibility that Trump is time traveler who has seen the disastrous results of bending the cost curve on military spending over several decades, come to warn us, but keeps forgetting to speak in the past tense.
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Nov 9, 2018 17:47
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Mahoning posted:https://twitter.com/brianschatz/status/1060934884724682752 he's wrong because the people (like bret stephens) who are saying this aren't smart. they can't even compare the seat differences in 94, 10, and 18.
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Nov 9, 2018 17:48
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Fritz Coldcockin posted:I'm not sure that attacking people for trying to say that Robert Mueller's investigation should be protected because "YOU DIDN'T PROTEST OTHER THING" is a great idea. I see this kind of naked, spiteful jealousy EVERYWHERE these days and it's baffling. Whenever someone does a good thing someone else runs in chiming "Don't give that person credit, because {unrelated bad thing or apparent lack of doing other unrelated good things}!" Like that person complaining at a gathering for the victims of the Orlando night club shooting in 2016 that people were there "for gay people" and not "for latinos". I'm not sure when it became de rigueur to do this kind of thing but it really is lovely.
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Nov 9, 2018 17:49
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VitalSigns posted:*surveys the ashes of 80 years of American empire and the countless piles of corpses growing ever higher* Oh so the choices are either isolationism or full interventionism?
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Nov 9, 2018 17:49
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Phobic Nest posted:It also takes over a week for your body to produce enough antibodies so sometimes you get the unfortunate luck of catching the bug despite vaccination. Then you have people convinced the shot gave them the flu, le sigh. Not to mention that the places where you receive a flu shot like a doctor's office, pharmacy, clinic, hospital, etc. are usually full of sick people, many times sick with the flu. And like you said, by the time the shot is even effective, you're already sick.
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Nov 9, 2018 17:49
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evilweasel posted:this is stupid argument #2, that People Can't Care About Two Things, that is even dumber than stupid argument #1, Everything Is Only Good Or Bad What part of "appealing to the corrupt institution won't actually stop the corrupt people" is difficult to understand also yeah shades of grey morality, the past few decades of compromising with nazis has really led you to prosperity
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Nov 9, 2018 17:50
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Hoover was a crazy person who served multiple Presidents. He wasn't a normal person who started doing crazy things because JFK installed someone who commanded him to. The FBI is structurally designed to enable the kind of abuse Hoover took part in. This hasn't really ever changed.
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Nov 9, 2018 17:50
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I'm not sure how we got on to the flu jab, but yeah if you think there's any similarity between flu-like symptoms from the vaccine and actual full-blown flu, then you have never had the honest-to-Jesus flu where you're joints are all grinding together and your brain is overheating. Last time I had it I was in college and I filled a notebook with a bunch of made up mathematical symbols because I thought I'd invented a new branch of mathematics. Nope. I think this years flu jab should cover about 60% of the strains that are out there this winter in the Northern hemisphere, but it's always an approximation of complex epidemiology. Get the loving jab, people, not dying is good Failed Imagineer fucked around with this message at 17:53 on Nov 9, 2018 |
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Nov 9, 2018 17:50
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evilweasel posted:people sermoning about the Rule of Law right now are saying "do not make it worse". an independent DOJ doesn't need to be inherently good in all circumstances for it to not be trivially obvious that an independent DOJ is miles better than a DOJ under the personal control of trump. and appealing to Rule of Law to save you from Trump is about as meaningful as appealing to God directly to save you from the Czar. it is a fiction applied by some people to make them feel better about the hierarchy that rules them. that surely, if they were to make a misstep, the great glowing hand in the sky will reach out and chide them for their misdeeds. unsurprisingly the people in question have spent a long time insulating themselves from even the suggestion this might be the case, but the belief makes idiots and priests feel a little more secure in their positions. bad news, virginia: there is no santa claus. you want a better world, you're going to have to build it yourself, because the higher power you're appealing to ain't gonna save you.
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Nov 9, 2018 17:51
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Groovelord Neato posted:he's wrong because the people (like bret stephens) who are saying this aren't smart. they can't even compare the seat differences in 94, 10, and 18. to be fair, there are some people saying it who are probably smart in certain respects but are being intentionally stupid because they are deliberately lying. for example i have no actual knowledge if hugh hewitt is dumb or smart, because he considers his job as simply to brazenly lie in support of the republican party and being intentionally stupid is frequently a good way to do that. i actually sort of assume he's not as stupid as he seems because his stupidity is always the exact type of stupidity needed to get to the conclusion he wants.
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Nov 9, 2018 17:51
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kidkissinger posted:The FBI is structurally designed to enable the kind of abuse Hoover took part in. This hasn't really ever changed. That would be a general criticism of the FBI bureaucracy and not a point supporting the "Presidents have always directly controlled the FBI" argument people were making.
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Nov 9, 2018 17:52
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Mahoning posted:Not to mention that the places where you receive a flu shot like a doctor's office, pharmacy, clinic, hospital, etc. are usually full of sick people, many times sick with the flu. And like you said, by the time the shot is even effective, you're already sick. This is a galaxy brain take Seriously, vaccines are probably the greatest advancement in public health since clean water. Please get your shots and provide herd immunity to the people with weakened immune systems.
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Nov 9, 2018 17:52
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evilweasel posted:saying "trump getting control over the DOJ is a significant step towards authoritarianism and weakening the rule of law" does not mean that the rule of law has been perfectly maintained prior to today. claiming that's what it means is stupid. The thing is that you don't really meam that it's bad for the President to have control over the DoJ, you mean that it's bad for Donald Trump to have control over the DoJ. That's fine, and I agree with that. The thing is that you're pretending that the reason you feel that way is because of long-standing American legal principles, which people are justifiably disagreeing with, when what you really mean is just that you don't want this one particular orange fascist gremlin to fire the guy investigating him. Most people don't buy or cares about the "rule of law" story, even if it's true; it's obvious to all involved that the Mueller fight is not about Constitutional principles.
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Nov 9, 2018 17:52
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evilweasel posted:yes, they are. they're just not saying it in those words because those words make it clear the point is stupid, but that is what the argument boils down to. This is such a disingenuous take. You’re basically admitting to putting words in other people’s mouths but it’s OK because you decided that’s what they mean anyway. It’s ironic you just posted a long screed about how goons can’t see shades of gray while also saying these posts are all black and white. People saying the rule of law has been dying/is dead before Trump aren’t demanding we capitulate to Trump no matter how many times you declare it so.
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Nov 9, 2018 17:52
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Mahoning posted:Not to mention that the places where you receive a flu shot like a doctor's office, pharmacy, clinic, hospital, etc. are usually full of sick people, many times sick with the flu. And like you said, by the time the shot is even effective, you're already sick. I would like to point out that Jill Stein is a Harvard medical school trained internal medicine doctor and she is anti-vaxx. That’s all you need to know about Jill Stein.
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Nov 9, 2018 17:53
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Vaccination is collectivism.
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Nov 9, 2018 17:53
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Yinlock posted:What part of "appealing to the corrupt institution won't actually stop the corrupt people" is difficult to understand nothing that we're discussing has involved morality, and i can only assume that you're trying to inject that here because you realize how tremendously stupid the "Things are only Good or Bad" argument is but can't make your argument without it. i understand your point perfectly, which is why i was able to identify the precise brand of stupidity animating it.
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Nov 9, 2018 17:53
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evilweasel posted:i've learned something today! but i think this sort of reinforces my underlying point, that skepticism about the flu shot is not really anti-vaxxer nonsense where people have the correct facts but willfully refuse to believe them, it's more just people making bad decisions because they have bad information. I'm slippery sloping here a bit so bear with me: That skepticism, on the wrong place in the internet, leads right to antivaxx shitwad. In the wild I'm generally much more educational about vaccines, flu, etc for that reason. It really works when someone's just not well learned about it. Being a jackass works better with the antivaxx shitwads though (I remember reading about it).
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Nov 9, 2018 17:53
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evilweasel posted:nothing that we're discussing has involved morality, and i can only assume that you're trying to inject that here because you realize how tremendously stupid the "Things are only Good or Bad" argument is but can't make your argument without it. i understand your point perfectly, which is why i was able to identify the precise brand of stupidity animating it. what are you even talking about you're snipping at me based on an imaginary argument you think i'm making, and have probably lost in the past given how turbo-defensive you got
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Nov 9, 2018 17:53
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The Glumslinger posted:This is a galaxy brain take They aren't saying you shouldn't get a shot, just that you might end up sick still lemonadesweetheart posted:Vaccination is collectivism. The Worker's Poke
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Nov 9, 2018 17:53
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The Glumslinger posted:This is a galaxy brain take I still maintain that my last flu shot gave me the sniffles for a few days, but I drat sure would prefer the sniffles and a sore throat to spending a week making GBS threads and puking while my brain boils in my skull. gently caress the flu.
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Nov 9, 2018 17:53
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Bicyclops posted:I haven't heard a male candidate called a "shill" in a pretty long time, but if you guys disagree with me, go hog wild. I don't think it was worth jumping down my throat about. look i'm sorry people called her shillary but you need to let it go
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