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Typo posted:I can find a better source but:
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Jan 4, 2019 00:52
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fits my needs posted:why are poor whites so racist tho it's because those are the only ones who had the free time and spending money to be part of a highly ritualized fraternal organization, with the exceptions of the ones who became cops who got paid to attend the rallies and lynchings
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Jan 4, 2019 00:57
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Grape posted:your working class person fetishism that is going to do gently caress all to actually grapple with the state of the nation and the brain poisons that are so popular in that demographic. providing people with an alternative to the endless tightening of the vice does a lot to grapple with the state of the nation. if people's material needs aren't met, they'll lash out and achieve the "wins" they're able to (ex. voting for trump to stick it to the libs, terrorizing the out-groups capital permits them to, etc) people advocating this position know that everyone in gary, indiana isn't a secret comrade. the point is that liberals are both unwilling and unable to reach these communities (communities that were overwhelmingly working class & unionized before decades of democratic policies destroyed them, btw), and that our choices are to either try to build a working class movement or let the brain poisons drown us all like, the whole point of fascism is to use the despair wrought by capitalism to reinforce the status quo. the far right uses class politics to stoke racial violence & genocide because they know class politics works
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Jan 4, 2019 00:57
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Epic High Five posted:the KKK was primarily white middle management and chamber of commerce types as well as white clergy, the groups most invested in a racial caste system and maintenance of the status quo and who have been the most reliable reactionaries in this country since before it was a country You have another think coming if you think lynchings were primarily a KKK enterprise. quote:my pitch is that instead of trying to appeal to these types of people they should appear to the actually poor people who actually vote for them The naïveté I'm thinking of is exactly this. That you think surely all the bad stuff is coming from not poor whites, and the actual poor whites are reds in waiting. There is definitely potential to reach them on these sort of issues, but it will involve huge cultural upheaval and fighting against a poo poo load of noxious poo poo. You don't really understand the poverty you want to eliminate if you don't understand the violence of vulnerable ignorance it fosters. Ironically I'm pretty sure the post Southern strategy GOP understands it very very well. And I think you're resistant to this because you fetishize working class people like they're living breathing socialist realist paintings and not people. quote:the most persistent lie repeated today in politics is that Americans are a lot more conservative than they actually are when you ask them, the Dems internalized this and ate poo poo because of it, I don't advise you do the same We're not talking about most Americans, we're talking about a rural America that wields wildly out of proportion electoral and congressional power.
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Jan 4, 2019 00:58
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Halloween Jack posted:I don't doubt any of this, but the problem with starting your timeline in 1996 is that you're already 5 candidates into the reign of neoliberalism in the Democratic Party. I would agree that being a disgusting racist helped Clinton, because while Carter's rural support collapsed when he abandoned labour, Clinton's support didn't decline as much in his second run, and adopting racist talking points (and some monstrous policies) played a role in that. But Clinton reversed the decline of the Democratic party after they bled under Carter, Mondale and Dukakis all 3 of which was perceived to be to the left of Clinton. And he did that by explicitly re-branding the Democratic Party as a Centrist party. If your opinion is that the Democratic party was too far to the right, then you would have seen a decline in support following a rebrand of the party towards the right, but the opposite happened. That seem to suggest the problem isn't that Democrats being too far to the -right-, but that the political attitude of rural America has shifted to the right in response to race, welfare and stagflation in the 60s-80s. quote:because while Carter's rural support collapsed when he abandoned labour Typo has issued a correction as of 01:16 on Jan 4, 2019 |
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Jan 4, 2019 00:59
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Business Gorillas posted:providing people with an alternative to the endless tightening of the vice does a lot to grapple with the state of the nation. if people's material needs aren't met, they'll lash out and achieve the "wins" they're able to (ex. voting for trump to stick it to the libs, terrorizing the out-groups capital permits them to, etc)
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Jan 4, 2019 00:59
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fits my needs posted:why are poor whites so racist tho https://www.afscme.org/now/the-racist-roots-of-right-to-work quote:Although the term "right to work" may have been coined by a Dallas Morning News editorial writer, it was used, exploited and popularized by a man named Vance Muse. Nicknamed “the Big Fink” by labor unions, Muse was a larger-than-life Texan who dressed the part and did not hesitate to say or do things that made most people squirm.
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Jan 4, 2019 01:01
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Business Gorillas posted:providing people with an alternative to the endless tightening of the vice does a lot to grapple with the state of the nation. if people's material needs aren't met, they'll lash out and achieve the "wins" they're able to (ex. voting for trump to stick it to the libs, terrorizing the out-groups capital permits them to, etc) how bout student loan tax credits for entrepreneurs
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Jan 4, 2019 01:01
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I find it unfathomable how anyone could still be a center-right liberal in this day and age. The majority of Americans want medicare for all. It stands to reason then that they will vote for someone who will give it to them, and once they have it they will vote against anyone who wants to take it away. So-called "moderate" (right-wing) democrats are a sinking ship, the only way to counter nativism and xenophobia is to actually make people's lives better.
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Jan 4, 2019 01:02
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Grape posted:There is definitely potential to reach them on these sort of issues, but it will involve huge cultural upheaval and fighting against a poo poo load of noxious poo poo. what the gently caress do you think socialists want, my man?
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Jan 4, 2019 01:04
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Grape posted:You have another think coming if you think lynchings were primarily a KKK enterprise. my entire argument is that if you flip 5% of chuds while energizing your actual base you can basically blow poo poo up, especially at a lower level, good poo poo happens, but you don't get to that point in the first place if you never reach out in any way to rural whites at all at no point have I said that we're taking a majority of any kind of white people, much less rural even the weird flips of yesteryear probably aren't possible anymore because the only people left in these communities are retirees and rent seekers and hereditary oligarchs, all of whom have an extremely vested interest in facilitating fascism. But where there's a landed gentry you know there's a lot more serfs, and if you can get one in ten to either stay home or flip sides, good things can happen if we're talking about actual solutions then electoralism is out of the window entirely because until the Senate and EC are dissolved and abolished nothing's gonna get better. Rural America wielding absolute control despite being like 30% of the actual country and shrinking is a feature, not a bug.
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Jan 4, 2019 01:05
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I, personally, do not believe this country has a path forward that does not involve civil war and probably a permanent breakup of the union, and that we will see this happen within 10 years but if you're theorycrafting a way to get an honest to god progressive into a seat of power sufficiently elevated enough that it gets them assassinated by law enforcement, this is how you'd do it if you assume urban libs are your allies or even bystanders you've already lost
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Jan 4, 2019 01:07
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A Russian troll farm posted:I find it unfathomable how anyone could still be a center-right liberal in this day and age. The majority of Americans want medicare for all. It stands to reason then that they will vote for someone who will give it to them, and once they have it they will vote against anyone who wants to take it away. So-called "moderate" (right-wing) democrats are a sinking ship, the only way to counter nativism and xenophobia is to actually make people's lives better. there's another option here: center-right liberals are incredibly successful and only support antiracism until it either personally inconveniences them or threatens the status quo they thrive in liberals deeming the rural white working class irredeemable working class as a monolithic block of klansmen not worthy of salvation is no different than conservatives painting urban communities as a bunch of lazy [string of slurs]. that being said, there's a lot of rurals that have fully internalized the hatred the management class spews and would rather destroy the world than get something better. while sad, these people are legitimately unreachable and deserve nothing but our endless scorn
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Jan 4, 2019 01:11
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nm
Typo has issued a correction as of 01:18 on Jan 4, 2019 |
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Jan 4, 2019 01:13
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Epic High Five posted:I think a really funny political geography dark horse that has a 50/50 chance of happening would be the next big crash causing a flight from coastal enclaves of young white people to mid-large cities in the interior, it's already happening to an extent in Texas and it's collapsed a shitload of gerrymanders I mean it’s why most of my California relatives have moved to Houston.
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Jan 4, 2019 01:17
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A Russian troll farm posted:I find it unfathomable how anyone could still be a center-right liberal in this day and age. The majority of Americans want medicare for all. It stands to reason then that they will vote for someone who will give it to them, and once they have it they will vote against anyone who wants to take it away. So-called "moderate" (right-wing) democrats are a sinking ship, the only way to counter nativism and xenophobia is to actually make people's lives better. Epic High Five posted:my entire argument is that if you flip 5% of chuds while energizing your actual base you can basically blow poo poo up, especially at a lower level, good poo poo happens, but you don't get to that point in the first place if you never reach out in any way to rural whites at all Don't listen to this man. He's obviously insane.
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Jan 4, 2019 01:17
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we are all so tremendously hosed and it's probably not even possible that we, as a species, can be saved at this point lol as tragic as it is that it'll be a slow decline into madness instead of something swift like an ELE comet strike, it'll be even more tragic for the dipshit chuds who think everything's going great because they're molesting children they've stuffed in cages to die like Jesus commanded them to do and then Mnuchin's at their door telling them the bank own all their poo poo now but thanks for voting to roll back on financial regulations and avoiding being pressed into service due to vagrancy laws and thus, we return to the theme of the threadd Typo posted:not sure why you erased this but whatever how'd trusting the libs work out for the German progressives who were proven to be 100% right about everything about Hitler lol I'll trust a juggalo to do the right thing before I'd trust someone going on the warpath against progressives in favor of Biden 2020 anyway voting is just performative at this point, there's hundred of legally sanctioned methods and systems to ensure most elections turn out the "right" way most of the time, and this on top of a system already designed to suppress popular opinion in favor of the moneyed elite
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Jan 4, 2019 01:19
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Epic High Five posted:
Your post came across as delusional because the average voter (urban, suburban or otherwise) don't even know what the difference between a liberal and socialist is. And yet this is somehow a point of good vs evil for you. Also wanna bet Biden would do pretty well in rural areas in a primary? Or that in a Trump vs Bernie election the overwhelming core of enthusiasm for Bernie isn't gonna come from proud rural proletariat but the very urban liberals you hate? Like the core of progressive/left-wing politics are metros, where the gently caress do you think Ocasio-Cortez got elected in? It's ocean-blue Queens and not in whatever the gently caress secretly Socialist rural district which exists in your head. And yet your posts are the cities are our enemies. Like the level of disconnect from the reality is getting to freeRepublic levels. Typo has issued a correction as of 01:26 on Jan 4, 2019 |
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Jan 4, 2019 01:22
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Grape posted:You don't really understand the poverty you want to eliminate if you don't understand the violence of vulnerable ignorance it fosters. Ironically I'm pretty sure the post Southern strategy GOP understands it very very well. the gop is really good at convincing the poor that the reason for their poverty is caused by minorities/immigrants/other equally poor people the democrats can not provide a counternarrative because the real reason for their poverty is the same people donating to the democratic party
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Jan 4, 2019 01:24
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Jan 4, 2019 01:26
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soooo, the poor rural whites valued racism more than worker solidarity? 
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Jan 4, 2019 01:26
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Typo posted:would you want to bet in a bernie vs trump election the overwhelming vote for bernie would be from the very urban liberals you hate?
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Jan 4, 2019 01:27
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Typo posted:would you want to bet in a bernie vs trump election the overwhelming vote for bernie would be from the very urban liberals you hate? Bernie is a compromise candidate ala FDR who promises to improve things for the working class at the expense of the rich while maintaining the traditional power structures present within the nation progressive/left wing people aren't libs
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Jan 4, 2019 01:27
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Epic High Five posted:Bernie is a compromise candidate ala FDR I mean, I'm not saying your views are wrong, the problem is that when you are assuming the very people who are most against your political views are secretly with you, while the people who are actually voting for you are not ideologically pure enough
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Jan 4, 2019 01:29
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Epic High Five posted:Bernie is a compromise candidate ala FDR who promises to improve things for the working class at the expense of the rich while maintaining the traditional power structures present within the nation he's also got strong numbers across all demographics lol forever that they had to try and wave around that recent iowa straw poll that went for biden (and which had previously gone for santorum)
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Jan 4, 2019 01:29
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Epic High Five posted:
Bernie doesn't support nationalizing all means production so he's a lib
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Jan 4, 2019 01:30
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Typo posted:And this should tell you how far your own political views are out of wack with real life voters I never said my views were in line with the average American, I believe the country is doomed and there's no mechanisms within the system to reform the system in time I'm also unwilling to put much faith into a group of people who throughout history have gleefully stabbed the left in the back the moment they actually posed a threat to capital. These vaunted libs you trust so much stole multiple states from Bernie through any means necessary while slandering him and started the Birther movement in 2008. Twice as many people went from Clinton -> McCain as we saw go from Bernie -> Trump, and this is a guy who just wanted modest reforms in line with literally every other developed nation's status quo Some may vote correctly when presented no other alternative but they are absolutely not to be trusted.
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Jan 4, 2019 01:32
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H.P. Hovercraft posted:he's also got strong numbers across all demographics trivia: santorum won IA in 2012 (but then he got cheated out of it twice first by Romney than by Paul)
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Jan 4, 2019 01:33
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Typo posted:Bernie doesn't support nationalizing all means production so he's a lib In any other country Bernie would qualify as center left or even centrist yeah, and most of his policies are in line with those parties. That he's by far the best candidate we've seen in generations just points back to my previous point of America being so captured by capital at all levels as to be loving doomed
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Jan 4, 2019 01:35
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Typo posted:And this should tell you how far your own political views are out of wack with real life voters The claim was never "There are more people in rural counties than in cities, and they're all actually communists without knowing it." You should probably stop having this conversation with figments of your own imagination.
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Jan 4, 2019 01:36
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What the hell is going on itt
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Jan 4, 2019 01:38
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Uncle Wemus posted:What the hell is going on itt people got me hollaring about communism and libs, I should probably close it for a bit to get it on track and flog myself for being the derail offender this time
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Jan 4, 2019 01:41
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but I won't because that would be me demanding you stop posintg, which, well
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Jan 4, 2019 01:41
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Halloween Jack posted:Mainly economic justice policies that appeal to rural voters as well as the urban core. This is true to an extent but there are a couple landmines with this: namely rural voters don't like thing which can be framed as transfer programs. Raising the min wage is good because it ties a benefit to work. Same with universal pre-K or w/e. The problem would be something like GMI or possibly single-payer (the latter could also be argued to be compromising medicare to rural voters who tend to be older so they are more threatened by it) because those could be framed as transfer programs to people who "don't work". What constitutes economic justice for rural voters could be very different from what a progressive or Berniecrat considers it to be. There are definitely overlaps, but also a lot of conflicts.
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Jan 4, 2019 01:44
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Epic High Five posted:people got me hollaring about communism and libs, I should probably close it for a bit to get it on track and flog myself for being the derail offender this time yeah if I come across as too aggressive I do apologize
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Jan 4, 2019 01:44
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Uncle Wemus posted:What the hell is going on itt people taking the typo bait
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Jan 4, 2019 01:57
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Epic High Five posted:people got me hollaring about communism and libs, I should probably close it for a bit to get it on track and flog myself for being the derail offender this time I come for the leopards.
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Jan 4, 2019 01:59
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Typo posted:OTOH: Third way Democrats actually -won- general elections in rural America whereas Bernie haven't There are more non-voters in urban areas who are uninspired than fence sitting rural voters who are going to switch to being something their whole identity is based around hating. Less than 1/3 of total registered voters in Wisconsin went for Trump and he won by like 40k votes but sure let's focus all our efforts on Dems courting the white power market and not chasing the millions of people who didn't vote at all
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Jan 4, 2019 02:02
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if you're finding yourself arguing that the left can win over poor white republicans using economic self-interest arguments then you need to find a way around this problem: fascism markets itself as socialism for whites only. as soon as you finally convince a red state chud to vote for their economic interests, including strong government programs, the fascists will jump in and say, "i also think the state should take care of real americans like you. my plan gives you even more help bc we don't spend anything on those people." (as i've noted before, trump broke with GOP orthodoxy in the 2016 campaign by saying he wanted to strengthen medicare and social security. he also ran the most overtly racist campaign of recent memory. im convinced the latter helped his struggling voters support the former.) also, no offense to bernie but polling changes drastically once you're taken seriously enough to be subjected to attack ads and smear campaigns. dem primaries are easy mode cuz the winner can't afford to fracture party unity in the general
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Jan 4, 2019 02:04
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MunchE posted:There are more non-voters in urban areas who are uninspired than fence sitting rural voters who are going to switch to being something their whole identity is based around hating. absolutely, I agree with the need to mobilize urban and suburban voters since I think the Democrats have pretty much done bleeding out in rural counties and aren't coming back until at least the boomers die
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Jan 4, 2019 02:06
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