Venezuela: The Empanada Summit

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Venezuela: The Empanada Summit

Randarkman: Jul 18, 2011

Pedro De Heredia posted:

This is just trolling, come on. Nobody is this loving stupid.

He is. That is, he is both trolling and that loving stupid. This is literally what he was posting a couple of weeks ago when he did that self-own about that dead-letter Communist ban law in the US.

# ? Feb 20, 2019 16:34

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# ? May 21, 2024 23:32

Fat-Lip-Sum-41.mp3: Nov 15, 2003

The coup failed and the pro-coup posters continue to believe that sanctions, asset seizure, and embargo are the best ways to help the Venezuelan people, which also just happen to be the public positions of Mike Pompeo and Eliot Abrams, two lovely people who have done so much good for the world.

# ? Feb 20, 2019 16:37

ChaseSP: Mar 25, 2013

If you ignore all reality causing Venezuelan decline then that is completely true.

# ? Feb 20, 2019 16:41

Rust Martialis: May 8, 2007; At night, Bavovnyatko quietly comes to the occupiers’ bases, depots, airfields, oil refineries and other places full of flammable items and starts playing with fire there

MullardEL34 posted:

What the hell happened to this thread?

"Noun! Verb! Elliot Abrams!"

# ? Feb 20, 2019 16:53

Moridin920: Nov 15, 2007; by FactsAreUseless

Mr. Sunshine posted:

Yeah, Trump appointing Abrams as a liaison/contact/expert whatever it is loving sucks, but that is completely out of the hands of the Venezuelan opposition! What do you want them to do? "We've been trying to get Maduro to step down for years but the US president just appointed some rear end in a top hat to some diplomatic position so I guess we'll just pack it up and go home?"

I want them to tell the USA to gently caress off with the special forces and weapons shipments and increasing sanctions designed to cause more catastrophe. I want them to explicitly say that appointing Elliot Abrams was a bad decision that isn't helping anything and they'd appreciate a different person.

I understand what you're saying but from the outside in they are looking like perfect little CIA assets and uh they should maybe try to do something to dissuade those optics.

ChaseSP posted:

US politics aren't relevant to this thread

How are they not relevant when the USA is trying to ship "force multipliers" into the country?

Moridin920 fucked around with this message at 18:05 on Feb 20, 2019

# ? Feb 20, 2019 18:02

beer_war: Mar 10, 2005

quote:

Venezuela: Hunger, punishment and fear, the formula for repression used by authorities under Nicol�s Maduro

Venezuelan security forces under the command of Nicol�s Maduro executed and used excessive force against people, and arbitrarily detained hundreds of others, including teenagers, in an escalation of their policy of repression as a means of controlling the people of Venezuela and particularly to punish residents of impoverished neighborhoods that decided to protest between 21 and 25 January 2019, said Amnesty International today.

�The authorities under Nicol�s Maduro are trying to use fear and punishment to impose a repulsive strategy of social control against those who demand change. His government is attacking the most impoverished people that it claims to defend, but instead it murders, detains and threatens them,� said Erika Guevara-Rosas, Americas director at Amnesty International.

Venezuela has suffered a major crisis of massive human rights violations for years, with shortages of food, medicines, hyperinflation, violence and political repression forcing more than three million people to flee the country since 2015.

Faced with this bleak reality, thousands have taken to the streets to demand a change in government. From 21 to 25 January, numerous demonstrations were registered, many of them in impoverished areas, where protests demanding this change had not previously been so visible. There is a strong presence of pro-Nicol�s Maduro armed groups (commonly known as �colectivos�) in these areas, where residents depend to a large extent on the currently limited state programs to distribute staple foods.

In just five days, at least 41 people died during these protests, all of them from gunshot wounds. More than 900 were arbitrarily detained, and just on 23 January (the day that demonstrations were held across the country), 770 arbitrary arrests were reported.

During a research mission in the states of Lara, Yaracuy, Vargas, and different locations in Caracas, from 31 January to 17 February, Amnesty International gathered more than 50 testimonies and documented 15 emblematic cases, including some of serious human rights violations and crimes under international law. The findings of this investigation will soon be fully expanded on in a public report.

The evidence gathered in these different locations shows typical patterns. These indicate that the state authorities carried out selective extrajudicial executions as a method of social control using the Bolivarian National Police (PNB), mainly through its Special Actions Force (FAES), against people who participated in some way in the protests. The more impoverished areas of Caracas and other parts of the country were particularly affected and stigmatized, registering the highest numbers of victims, who were later presented as �criminals� killed in clashes with the authorities.

Extrajudicial executions

Amnesty International documented six extrajudicial executions at the hands of the FAES in several locations across the country, all with a similar modus operandi. In each case, the victims were in some way linked to the protests that had been held in previous days and the criticism that several of them had made against Nicol�s Maduro had gone viral on social networks.

The six victims were all young men whom authorities publicly described as having been killed in clashes with the FAES. This public security force tampered with the crime scenes and portrayed the victims as delinquents, saying that several of them had a criminal record, in an attempt to justify their deaths.

�As we have seen many times in Venezuela, the authorities want us to believe that those who died during the protests � mainly young people from low-income areas � were criminals. Their only crime was daring to ask for change and to demand a dignified existence,� said Erika Guevara-Rosas.

Luis Enrique Ramos Su�rez was 29 years old when FAES officers executed him on 24 January in the city of Carora. The day before, a voice note announcing protests against Nicol�s Maduro and Carora's mayor�s office had gone viral. In this voice note, Luis Enrique was mentioned by his nickname as one of the organizers.

On 24 January, more than 20 heavily armed and mostly masked members of the FAES illegally raided the Ramos Su�rez household and mistreated the 10 family members who were present, including six children. After identifying Luis Enrique by his nickname, they made him kneel in the middle of the room while one officer took photos and others beat him.

They locked the other family members in different rooms of the house, threatened them and beat them in different parts of the body. They then forcibly removed them from their home and transferred them in a PNB convoy to a location two kilometers from the house. Minutes later, they shot Luis Enrique twice in the chest. He died immediately.

According to the testimonies obtained, after executing Luis Enrique, FAES officers fired inside the house to simulate a shootout. In addition to fabricating evidence, they tampered with the crime scene, dragging the corpse to a vehicle in which it was finally transferred to the morgue, thus violating the minimum protocols for criminal investigation.

Excessive use of force

Amnesty International also documented the cases of two young men killed and a young man wounded by firearms at the hands of state security forces while participating in protests. Both the PNB and the Bolivarian National Guard (GNB) participated in operations of this nature.

Alixon Pizani, a 19-year-old baker, died on 22 January from a bullet wound to the thorax while protesting with a group of friends in Catia, west of Caracas. According to witnesses, an officer wearing a PNB uniform mounted on a motorcycle fired a handgun at random into the crowd, seriously injuring two people.

Without receiving any help from the authorities, Alixon was transferred to a health center, where he died. Alixon's family says that FAES officials began firing rounds at his friends and relatives at the hospital entrance, who immediately took refuge inside. To date there is no evidence that the public prosecutor�s office has initiated an investigation.

Arbitrary detentions

According to Venezuela�s Foro Penal, the authorities detained 137 children and adolescents throughout the country from January 21 to 31. Of those cases, Amnesty International documented the arbitrary detention of six people, including four teenagers who participated in a protest, or simply watched it from close by, in the city of San Felipe on January 23.

In an interview with Amnesty International, they said that upon being arrested, the authorities beat them, called them �guarimberos� (protestors who use violence) and �terrorists�, exposed them to irritant substances, deprived them of sleep, and threatened to kill them. According to their testimony, the officials who detained them belonged to several different state security forces and were accompanied by people dressed in civilian clothes.

�Arbitrarily detaining more than a hundred adolescents and subjecting them to cruel treatment, which at times may have constituted torture, shows how far the authorities are willing to go in their desperate attempts to stop the protests and subdue the population,� said Erika Guevara-Rosas.

The four teenagers were accused of crimes that, according to national law, they should not have been held in detention for, yet they were imprisoned for eight days by court order. They spent four of those days at the Rehabilitation Center for Minors, a military institution where they had their heads shaved and were forced to sing phrases like �We are Ch�vez�s children�.

On 29 January, one of the judges in charge of three of these cases publicly stated that she had been ordered to keep the adolescents in custody, despite there being no legal justification. After making this complaint, she was removed from her position and left the country. The four adolescents are awaiting their trial and remain subject to restrictions on their freedom.

The young men expressed how frustrating it was to live in an economic, social and political crisis at their age, where studying, eating or finding clothing is a daily challenge. Some expressed their desire to leave Venezuela in search of a better future.

Preliminary recommendations

The Venezuelan authorities must put an end to the policies of repression that they have developed in recent years and fulfill their obligation to guarantee justice, truth and reparation for victims of human rights violations or crimes under international law.

�The Venezuelan justice system seems to have a policy of abandoning the victims of human rights violations. The few people brave enough to file reports are left defenseless and in danger due to the lack of a response from the authorities,� said Erika Guevara-Rosas.

Due to the severe obstacles that obstruct the path justice in Venezuela, Amnesty International calls on the United Nations Human Rights Council to take action to address the total impunity that prevails in Venezuela, through the creation of an independent investigative body to monitor and report on the human rights situation in the country.

In addition, the Office of the Prosecutor of the International Criminal Court should consider these facts, and if it deems them well founded, incorporate them as part of the preliminary examination already underway on Venezuela.

Finally, countries genuinely concerned about the human rights situation in Venezuela should explore the application of universal jurisdiction, which serves as an alternative path to justice for victims that cannot access it locally.

�International justice is the only hope for victims of human rights violations in Venezuela. It is time to activate all available mechanisms to prevent further atrocities,� said Erika Guevara-Rosas.

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/n...nicolas-maduro/

# ? Feb 20, 2019 18:03

Moridin920: Nov 15, 2007; by FactsAreUseless

quote:

�International justice is the only hope for victims of human rights violations in Venezuela. It is time to activate all available mechanisms to prevent further atrocities,� said Erika Guevara-Rosas.

But meanwhile Israel does Palestine worse than this and it is antisemitism if anyone says peep about it.

I'd like to see the opposition say "thanks but if this is how you're going to help then no thanks" and lean more on the EU or something.

I do believe that Maduro sucks and has done bad things. I was wrong about the election stuff - I see that he only called for parliamentary elections and not presidential. I don't think Trump, Pence, and Rubio aren't doing anything helpful are are just making otherwise well meaning people question the entire situation. It's obviously a hosed situation in Venezuela but the USA has made poo poo worse just by sticking their dicks in and muddying the waters.

What am I supposed to think about this poo poo?

quote:

�Unlike existing USAID officers working in permissive and semi-permissive environments, RED Team members would be specifically recruited and trained to deliver novel techniques, practices, and tools optimized to secure communities vulnerable to violent extremist radicalization and exploitation,� the report reads.

Who are these ghouls speculating about further bringing USAID into the intelligence community fold? I'm supposed to believe that they give a poo poo about Venezuelans?

USA should go take care of Puerto Rico which is still hosed beyond belief afaik (death toll = to 9/11 death toll at this point) and stop trying to send spec ops into a volatile situation

How was it too hard to ship supplies to Puerto Rico because "so far away so so far away you know ISLAND big ISLAND AND WATER" but they can send a bunch of cargo planes to Venezuela like that?

https://www.theroot.com/puerto-ricos-hurricane-maria-death-toll-on-par-with-9-1-1828680020 posted:

�The lack of power was a major contributor to deaths, as people lost access to medical devices and refrigeration for medicine,� wrote Earther.

Elizabeth Warren posted:

The Puerto Rican government just updated the official death count for Hurricane Maria from 64 to 2,975 people. @realDonaldTrump and his Administration utterly failed in their response, and US citizens died. That's the appalling, tragic reality.

But now their bleeding hearts are gonna fix Venezuela? pff.

Every goddamn thing the USA involves itself in becomes suspect due to decades if not centuries of US history - it shouldn't be all that surprising to see people begin then questioning all the facts once the USA involves itself so heavily.

Moridin920 fucked around with this message at 18:21 on Feb 20, 2019

# ? Feb 20, 2019 18:06

Doktor Avalanche: Dec 30, 2008

Rust Martialis posted:

"Noun! Verb! Elliot Abrams!"

No matter how many times you repeat this, it won't be either funny or thoughtful.

# ? Feb 20, 2019 18:19

Discendo Vox: Mar 21, 2013; We don't need to have that dialogue because it's obvious, trivial, and has already been had a thousand times.

Please source your quotes.

Carlos Danger posted:

No matter how many times you repeat this, it won't be either funny or thoughtful.

Agreed, but y'all won't stop doing it, so he's going to keep pointing it out.

# ? Feb 20, 2019 18:20

Cease to Hope: Dec 12, 2011

Discendo Vox posted:

Please source your quotes.

It's Amnesty International, link's at the bottom

# ? Feb 20, 2019 18:22

Moridin920: Nov 15, 2007; by FactsAreUseless

Discendo Vox posted:

Please source your quotes.

Agreed, but y'all won't stop doing it, so he's going to keep pointing it out.

Won't stop doing what exactly? Why is it so difficult to get that this was a terrible loving choice that only further muddied the waters?

Isn't it true that if Trump et all cared so much about Venezuela they wouldn't have appointed a guy who ran death squads to be the special envoy???

If the tankies are denying the food crisis and Maduro's bad acts itt, then for sure the neolibs itt are also denying every bad thing the USA has ever done ever.

United Nations Truth Commission posted:

On 10 December 1981, in the village of El Mozote in the Department of Moraz�n, units of the Atlacatl Battalion detained, without resistance, all the men, women and children who were in the place. The following day, 11 December, after spending the night locked in their homes, they were deliberately and systematically executed in groups. First, the men were tortured and executed, then the women were executed and, lastly, the children, in the place where they had been locked up.

and they just don't loving care. At most they brush it off as "an incident" that happened then continuing to back themselves on the back.

Elliot Abrams posted:

�The purpose of our aid is to permit people who are fighting on our side to use more violence,� he said in 1985.

quote:

In 2002, Abrams reportedly �gave a nod� to the military coup that attempted, ultimately unsuccessfully, to remove the democratically elected Hugo Chavez from power. The Observer, which broke the story, called Abrams �the crucial figure around the coup.� Abrams has had his eye on toppling Venezuela�s government for some time.

quote:

When Hamas defeated Fatah in the 2006 Palestinian election, Abrams, then the point man for George W. Bush�s Middle East policy, helped implement a scheme to nullify the results by fomenting a Palestinian civil war which, they hoped, would remove Hamas from power. When the plan backfired, with Hamas emerging victorious and in full control of Gaza, Abrams accused Hamas of staging a �coup.�

I'm supposed to believe these ghouls have the best interests of Venezuelan peasants in mind? gently caress off. This was a horrible choice by an idiot POTUS.

I'm supposed to look at this sick piece of poo poo and think "well, we're doing our best things are complicated?" It looks like another loving disaster in the making to me.

"hur hur NOUN VERB ELLIOT ABRAMS!!! I like to handwave away atrocities to further my narrative while accusing you of the same!!!"

like what are you even saying that you just don't care either? That this is all fine and good and he's the best person to handle this job?

What happens if the people the USA doesn't like are elected? What then? Does he foment another civil war like he did before when the results of an election were not acceptable to the USA? More death squads? Do we trust that he'll accept the results of a fair election whatever they may be? because I sure loving don't.

quote:

In 2007, Abrams blessed Bush�s plan to launch a covert operation to destabilize Iran�s government.

In 2013, Abrams told a House Armed Services Committee hearing that the US had to get militarily involved in Syria.

I mean JFC for real though could they have picked a WORSE person to be the 'special envoy' to Venezuela? He's literally a cold warrior psychopath bent on wiping out the reds and if fascists replace them well that's fine as long as no communism.

Elliot Abrams posted:

�even a highly imperfect regime may well give a much better prospect of democratization than would the Communist regime that might follow.�

so basically it doesn't matter how lovely it is as long as it isn't commies. That's uh, quite a low bar for entry.

Moridin920 fucked around with this message at 18:47 on Feb 20, 2019

# ? Feb 20, 2019 18:22

vincentpricesboner: Sep 3, 2006; by LITERALLY AN ADMIN

CAPS LOCK BROKEN posted:

as well as police operations to assassinate Black Lives Matter activists who color outside the lines and criticize the bought and paid for national movement for black lives.

Wtf are you talking about?

# ? Feb 20, 2019 18:55

Yeowch!!! My Balls!!!: May 31, 2006

zapplez posted:

Wtf are you talking about?

there's a link there, zapples. you can click on it. it takes you to another webpage.

did you ever get around to clicking on that one about how we caused a polio epidemic in Pakistan by militarizing vaccination programs, by the way? it's a laugh riot.

# ? Feb 20, 2019 18:59

Cease to Hope: Dec 12, 2011

a common conspiracy theory that police are assassinating BLM members who are critical of national BLM org leadership (as opposed to just assassinating outspoken BLM members opportunistically)

what it has to do with Venezuela, I have no idea.

# ? Feb 20, 2019 19:01

Moridin920: Nov 15, 2007; by FactsAreUseless

I dunno what it has to do with Venezuela either but as far as "conspiracy theories" go it's pretty sound imo considering quite a few organizers behind those protests have been ruled a suicide after being found with multiple gun shots to the back of the head and in a burning car.

# ? Feb 20, 2019 19:11

Discendo Vox: Mar 21, 2013; We don't need to have that dialogue because it's obvious, trivial, and has already been had a thousand times.

Cease to Hope posted:

It's Amnesty International, link's at the bottom

I was referring to Mordin. They're giving the name of their quoted sources (sometimes), but not an actual link to it.

Moridin920 posted:

Won't stop doing what exactly? Why is it so difficult to get that this was a terrible loving choice that only further muddied the waters?

This isn't the united states thread. It's the Venezuela thread. We're familiar with the rhetorical method of constantly, incessantly shifting the discussion to focus myopically on the United States and its current and past morality, obliviating the role or agency or relevance of any other person or party or country. You're not muddying the waters, you're making GBS threads up the thread.

# ? Feb 20, 2019 19:14

Cease to Hope: Dec 12, 2011

Moridin920 posted:

I dunno what it has to do with Venezuela either but as far as "conspiracy theories" go it's pretty sound imo considering quite a few organizers behind those protests have been ruled a suicide after being found with multiple gun shots to the back of the head and in a burning car.

Cease to Hope posted:

a common conspiracy theory that police are assassinating BLM members who are critical of national BLM org leadership (as opposed to just assassinating outspoken BLM members opportunistically)

# ? Feb 20, 2019 19:16

patonthebach: Aug 22, 2016; by R. Guyovich

Moridin920 posted:

I dunno what it has to do with Venezuela either but as far as "conspiracy theories" go it's pretty sound imo considering quite a few organizers behind those protests have been ruled a suicide after being found with multiple gun shots to the back of the head and in a burning car.

Uhh what one got ruled a suicide that was found with gunshots to the back of the head in a burnt car?

# ? Feb 20, 2019 19:21

Rust Martialis: May 8, 2007; At night, Bavovnyatko quietly comes to the occupiers’ bases, depots, airfields, oil refineries and other places full of flammable items and starts playing with fire there

Moridin920 posted:

Won't stop doing what exactly? .

"Noun! Verb! Elliott Abrams!"

# ? Feb 20, 2019 20:00

Acebuckeye13: Nov 2, 2010; Ultra Carp

Rust Martialis posted:

"Noun! Verb! Elliott Abrams!"

dude you've posted this like 8 times, it's not really helpful

# ? Feb 20, 2019 20:10

Cease to Hope: Dec 12, 2011

patonthebach posted:

Uhh what one got ruled a suicide that was found with gunshots to the back of the head in a burnt car?

darren seals

still doesn't have anything to do with venezuela

# ? Feb 20, 2019 20:17

ChaseSP: Mar 25, 2013

Yeah it really isn't funny at this point and Mordin wasn't the one constantly posting it to begin with.

# ? Feb 20, 2019 20:17

patonthebach: Aug 22, 2016; by R. Guyovich

Cease to Hope posted:

darren seals

still doesn't have anything to do with venezuela

I didn't bring up the crazy conspiracy theories but ok. No one said Seals died of suicide though. Holy gently caress do we have some 9/11 truthers in here too?

But I guess if you think the food shortages in Venezuela is fake news you will believe a ton of stupid poo poo.

patonthebach fucked around with this message at 20:24 on Feb 20, 2019

# ? Feb 20, 2019 20:20

Rust Martialis: May 8, 2007; At night, Bavovnyatko quietly comes to the occupiers’ bases, depots, airfields, oil refineries and other places full of flammable items and starts playing with fire there

ChaseSP posted:

Yeah it really isn't funny at this point and Mordin wasn't the one constantly posting it to begin with.

But he sure posted the Platonic Ideal of one.

# ? Feb 20, 2019 20:20

Moridin920: Nov 15, 2007; by FactsAreUseless

Discendo Vox posted:

This isn't the united states thread. It's the Venezuela thread. We're familiar with the rhetorical method of constantly, incessantly shifting the discussion to focus myopically on the United States and its current and past morality, obliviating the role or agency or relevance of any other person or party or country. You're not muddying the waters, you're making GBS threads up the thread.

Oh gently caress off like they aren't intertwined as hell.

Moridin920 fucked around with this message at 20:39 on Feb 20, 2019

# ? Feb 20, 2019 20:24

Moridin920: Nov 15, 2007; by FactsAreUseless

patonthebach posted:

Uhh what one got ruled a suicide that was found with gunshots to the back of the head in a burnt car?

quote:

Edward Crawford, 27, a Ferguson, Mo., protester and activist, was found in his car dead from a gunshot wound.

Reports are not clear on whether the shooting took place Thursday night or early Friday morning. Police investigators are calling it self-inflicted, but they say they have not yet determined whether they believe it to have been intentional.

The St. Louis Post-Dispatch initially noted only that Crawford died of gunshot wounds. It now says that the death was reported to the medical examiner�s office as a suicide, but the medical examiner hasn�t issued an official cause of death yet, pending an autopsy.

Crawford is the man in the now-iconic photo from the Ferguson Riots, in which he is seen throwing a tear gas canister away from a crowd, while holding a bag of potato chips.

looks like this dude's car wasn't on fire granted

quote:

On October 17th, Danye Jones, the 24-year-old son of Melissa McKinnies, was found dead, hanging from a tree in the backyard of his mother�s house in St. Louis, MO, according to the Riverfront Times. McKinnies was active in local movements to end police shootings of black people.

St. Louis County Police Sgt. Shawn McGuire confirmed to the Times that they are currently investigating the death as a suicide, and that they are awaiting a toxicology report before announcing the cause of death. �At this time there are no signs of foul play,� McGuire said.

This case has brought new attention to several other deaths of people close to the Ferguson, MO and St. Louis protests over the deaths of Michael Brown and others killed by police.

Moridin920 fucked around with this message at 20:33 on Feb 20, 2019

# ? Feb 20, 2019 20:26

Yeowch!!! My Balls!!!: May 31, 2006

Acebuckeye13 posted:

dude you've posted this like 8 times, it's not really helpful

trust me, the ninth time he says it will make "the opposition's currently cozying up to a genocide enthusiast because they're so worried about what Maduro's doing to human rights" stop sounding wrong in his ears.

honestly, thinking less of people for being war criminals. what a trope, am i right

# ? Feb 20, 2019 20:27

ChaseSP: Mar 25, 2013

It's simple whataboutism. You're from a country that has x responsible, you can't criticize other countries for their problems even if you explicitly are against x as well.

# ? Feb 20, 2019 20:31

Moridin920: Nov 15, 2007; by FactsAreUseless

ChaseSP posted:

It's simple whataboutism. You're from a country that has x responsible, you can't criticize other countries for their problems even if you explicitly are against x as well.

It's not whataboutism because Elliot Abrams is directly involved with Venezuela and thus directly related to the argument my dude. There is no logical fallacy here. The USA, which is at the least organizing the international community behind Guaido, has appointed this person to be the special envoy to Venezuela. He is relevant.

It's also not whataboutism because it is fair to see what Abrams has done in the past to try and figure out what he wants to do now.

It's not like anyone is going "yes Maduro bad but AHA look at the Trail of Tears! Therefore... we can't judge Maduro!"

What is erroneous is pretending like Venezuela exists in a vacuum and nothing the USA does matters at all to the conversation. THAT'S the logical fallacy.

Discendo Vox posted:

Well we're seeing other ties to Erdogan, including Russian support. It's literally the same playbook.

We can't mention the USA but you can talk about Turkey and Russia? Pff

I can admit Maduro sucks. I don't get why ya'll can't admit Abrams sucks and needs to gently caress off.

Moridin920 fucked around with this message at 20:40 on Feb 20, 2019

# ? Feb 20, 2019 20:33

Yeowch!!! My Balls!!!: May 31, 2006

Moridin920 posted:

It's not whataboutism because Elliot Abrams is directly involved with Venezuela and thus directly related to the argument my dude. There is no logical fallacy here. The USA, which is at the least organizing the international community behind Guaido, has appointed this person to be the special envoy to Venezuela. He is relevant.

It's also not whataboutism because it is fair to see what Abrams has done in the past to try and figure out what he wants to do now.

It's not like anyone is going "yes Maduro bad but AHA look at the Trail of Tears! Therefore... we can't judge Maduro!"

What is erroneous is pretending like Venezuela exists in a vacuum and nothing the USA does matters at all to the conversation. THAT'S the logical fallacy.

in the world where Venezuela existed in a vacuum it would be ludicrously easy to support Guaido. of course, in a world where Venezuela existed in a vacuum there also wouldn't be a plane doing 24/7 flights in and out of the country carrying guns from the US, soo

# ? Feb 20, 2019 20:40

Rust Martialis: May 8, 2007; At night, Bavovnyatko quietly comes to the occupiers’ bases, depots, airfields, oil refineries and other places full of flammable items and starts playing with fire there

Moridin920 posted:

I can admit Maduro sucks. I don't get why ya'll can't admit Abrams sucks and needs to gently caress off.

Read back in the thread - everyone agrees. Some posters (e.g. YMB) just keep screeching about him, and basically *nothing else*. We all agree, he sucks and needs to gently caress off. Can we move on from endless posts explaining how horrible Elliot Abrams is?

# ? Feb 20, 2019 20:49

Moridin920: Nov 15, 2007; by FactsAreUseless

Sorry I kind of went off on a good one with the "verb noun elliot abrams" stuff I guess.

# ? Feb 20, 2019 21:05

Pharohman777: Jan 14, 2012; by Fluffdaddy

The problem with Abrams is that I see it as 'beggars can't be choosers'

I don't think we're hearing much of an uproar from the opposition because they are literally trying the last, legally viable option for regaining the power illegally stolen from them. They probably don't want to upset the US or make it look like support for Guiado is in jeopardy.

And demanding the US stay out of Venezuelan affairs when it inherently controls its purse strings via the oil refineries it has and the ongoing food and medical aid its sending to countries affected by the refugee crisis seems naive.

And Venezuelan affairs are impacting US allies in the region like Colombia, and many other surrounding countries.

A few years ago this would simply be Venezuelan affairs, but now its a regional crisis because of everyone fleeing the famine and hyperinflation.

Pharohman777 fucked around with this message at 21:11 on Feb 20, 2019

# ? Feb 20, 2019 21:08

Yeowch!!! My Balls!!!: May 31, 2006

Pharohman777 posted:

The problem with Abrams is that I see it as 'beggars can't be choosers'

I don't think we're hearing much of an uproar from the opposition because they are literally trying the last, legally viable option for regaining the power illegally stolen from them. They probably don't want to upset the US or make it look like support for Guiado is in jeopardy.

And demanding the US stay out of Venezuelan affairs when it inherently controls its purse strings via the oil refineries it has and the ongoing food and medical aid its sending to countries affected by the refugee crisis seems naive.

"we have to destroy the village to save the village"

# ? Feb 20, 2019 21:09

AGGGGH BEES: Apr 28, 2018; by LITERALLY AN ADMIN

I just kind of wonder what kind of person takes a look at the Venezuela situation and thinks "it's better that the Venezuelan people should all starve to death than ask the US for help".

# ? Feb 20, 2019 21:09

Yeowch!!! My Balls!!!: May 31, 2006

AGGGGH BEES posted:

I just kind of wonder what kind of person takes a look at the Venezuela situation and thinks "it's better that the Venezuelan people should all starve to death than ask the US for help".

the kind of person who does not categorize massacring the untermenschen with sledgehammers for the crimes of being insufficiently supportive of their American betters as help.

# ? Feb 20, 2019 21:11

Condiv: May 7, 2008; Sorry to undo the effort of paying a domestic abuser $10 to own this poster, but I am going to lose my dang mind if I keep seeing multiple posters who appear to be Baloogan.

With love,
a mod

AGGGGH BEES posted:

I just kind of wonder what kind of person takes a look at the Venezuela situation and thinks "it's better that the Venezuelan people should all starve to death than ask the US for help".

we're talking about the same people the US is currently starving to death right?

# ? Feb 20, 2019 21:15

Pharohman777: Jan 14, 2012; by Fluffdaddy

Condiv posted:

we're talking about the same people the US is currently starving to death right?

Oh, so you mean the famine that started before the current harsh sanctions?

I didn't know you forgot about when the famine started.

# ? Feb 20, 2019 21:18

Rent-A-Cop: Oct 15, 2004; I posted my food for USPOL Thanksgiving!

AGGGGH BEES posted:

I just kind of wonder what kind of person takes a look at the Venezuela situation and thinks "it's better that the Venezuelan people should all starve to death than ask the US for help".

There are certain American posters who cannot fathom that their opinion of Trump isn't the most important part of every discussion and insist on colonizing every thread with their bullshit.

Also YMB is Ze Pollack so that explains that.

# ? Feb 20, 2019 21:18

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# ? May 21, 2024 23:32

Randarkman: Jul 18, 2011

Condiv posted:

we're talking about the same people the US is currently starving to death right?

They were starving perfectly fine without any help from the US before the US got involved in this.

Acebuckeye13 posted:

dude you've posted this like 8 times, it's not really helpful

Yeah, I mean at this point anyone annoyed by his schtick should just put that rear end in a top hat on ignore and don't let curiosity get the better of you. He has literally nothing to contribute.

# ? Feb 20, 2019 21:20

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Venezuela: The Empanada Summit

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