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Midjack posted:The idea is to reinforce Ral’s squad with generous supplies including Doms. Which would likely mean that instead of charging into close combat they stayed back and played to their advantages. Pretty much. Dozle's request is to give Ramba Ral's team a resupply along with some brand-new Doms (note: you have to have Doms researched by this point in order to be able to do so - otherwise, it plays out exactly like it does in the series with Ral taking on White Base with nothing more than APCs, a Zaku, and some good vibes). Given that he was the only one with an advanced mobile suit when they initially lost, giving the entire team even more advanced mobile suits for the second go-around makes his victory possible (in addition to Amuro being a sulky, insubordinate twit at that time).
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Mar 6, 2019 00:36
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It's worth pointing out that while Doms are not necessarily melee monsters they are specifically geared for the conditions Ramba Ral was fighting Amuro in and it isn't like they're *bad* in melee by any means. The higher mobility (and addition of extra units) probably would have done wonders for turning the fight in another direction. Considering it is a fictional story it is one case where a small difference really WOULD have changed a lot, which is true of most Gundam things where lack of a single pilot could very well have turned the tide of history on multiple occasions. Hell, the Neo-Zeon War came down to like 5 teenagers with attitude.
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Mar 6, 2019 00:45
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ninjewtsu posted:Yeah that's a much different conversation than "how would ral have done if he had a dom instead of a gouf" Is it? Ral's men were essentially worthless in mobile suit conflict, and the only time one of them really made any kind of difference at it was when Sayla was the one piloting the Gundam. Even then, the guy mostly just managed to molest the Gundam while Ramba had to fight off Amuro in the Guncannon. Putting any or all of them in Doms is like putting Kai in a Guncannon instead of a Guntank; it makes them sound more dangerous on paper, but they'll be exactly as effective in reality because the pilots just will not have the skill needed to take advantage of the extra specs. They said it themselves; they're guerrilla fighters, not mobile suit fighters. Thinking about it now, guerrilla attacks are actually presented as the most dangerous attacks to the crew of the White Base several times in Gundam. Ral's guerrilla attack on the White Base gets people aboard it and even manages to get them in to the secondary bridge, the guys in "Time, Be Still" would have destroyed the Gundam if they'd been given remote detonators rather than timed ones (something they specifically complain about if I recall) and Char would have at the very least heavily disrupted the GM production if the kids hadn't seen him planting bombs at Jaburo after managing to sneak in, plant the bombs and sneak (most of the way) back out. Even early on, his sneak attack on Luna II was more successful than most of the rest of Char's attacks on the White Base. tsob fucked around with this message at 01:00 on Mar 6, 2019 |
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Mar 6, 2019 00:49
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As a counterpoint, anyone who's played Zeonic Front can tell you that the White Base mission is way easier on NG+ when you have Doms than the first go-around.
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Mar 6, 2019 01:03
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And Kai can become a super Newtype who pilots the Nu Gundam in some games, but I wouldn't be taking that as proof of anything about the actual character or circumstances presented in the animation instead of a fun little "what if" for the player to pursue in a video game.
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Mar 6, 2019 01:12
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I'm pretty sure that upgrading multiple pilots from bottom tier robots into top tier robots, along with alleviating their supply problems, would have indeed made a discernable difference I think the takeaway from ral was that he was very good at leveraging what he had to work with to maximum effect. He nearly brought white base to its knees with a pretty ragged crew and supplies, giving him any more to squeeze more value out of could have totally changed things Perhaps a question for you then, tsob, is what would zeon have had to give ral for him to be able to defeat white base?
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Mar 6, 2019 01:25
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tsob posted:And Kai can become a super Newtype who pilots the Nu Gundam in some games, but I wouldn't be taking that as proof of anything about the actual character or circumstances presented in the animation instead of a fun little "what if" for the player to pursue in a video game. Wasn't this whole thing started by a fun little "what if" in a video game? Why is Ral getting Doms in Gihren's Greed worthy of consideration and Kai becoming a super newtype in G Gen not?
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Mar 6, 2019 01:27
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ninjewtsu posted:Perhaps a question for you then, tsob, is what would zeon have had to give ral for him to be able to defeat white base? Better guerrilla supplies, because it's the single most dangerous offensive Ral had against the White Base. As I said a few posts up, I think it's where Zeon actually were at their most dangerous against the White Base on several occasions, despite the show's overall focus on mobile suits. Or maybe because of it really, since the focus on making Amuro a dangerous mobile suit pilot meant that non-mobile suit stuff was free to pose a greater danger to him.. Regardless, it's also the one time Ral didn't have mobile suits to use. I'm not even sure what guerrilla supplies that could help would be off the top of my head, beyond "something besides mobile suits". Droyer posted:Wasn't this whole thing started by a fun little "what if" in a video game? Why is Ral getting Doms in Gihren's Greed worthy of consideration and Kai becoming a super newtype in G Gen not? The original reason I brought it up, and something I mentioned in the second post, is because I'm used to people arguing it like it's something that'd make a difference in the animation and not just be a fun "what if". With the rest spinning out from there as to why it would/wouldn't. tsob fucked around with this message at 01:35 on Mar 6, 2019 |
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Mar 6, 2019 01:29
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I think tsob's point there is that if he's arguing that it's unrealistic for ral to win because he was given doms, bringing up another alternate-universe scenario isn't terribly relevant, because it has the same level of legimacy as the event he is currently questioning the legitimacy of.
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Mar 6, 2019 01:30
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tsob posted:Better guerrilla supplies, because it's the single most dangerous offensive he had against them. Which is the one time he didn't have mobile suits to use. I'm not even sure what that would be off the top of my head, something besides mobile suits. "Destroy whitebase through concentrated sabotage and guerrilla warfare" would be an interesting and valid route for an alternate universe route to go though
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Mar 6, 2019 01:33
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ninjewtsu posted:Do you think amuro, at that point in time, could have eaten through the entirety of zeon's armed forces under the command of ramba ral? Zeon were making a good go of that plan honestly, since their Earthside forces hounded the White Base constantly for the first nearly 30 episodes of the TV show, until the White Base reached Jaburo. Not under Ral only, since it was under 4 different commanders (Char, Garma, M'Quve & Ral), but Zeon constantly resupplied the guys chasing the White Base and put top commanders at the head of the group. It wasn't like the whole Zeon army bore down on them at once, but they sent a significant amount of people in drips and drabs over those 28 or so episodes.
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Mar 6, 2019 01:38
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Do you think any of those commanders could have succeeded if they were given more manpower/robots/supplies at once, rather than dripfeeding zeon's soldiers into the gundam's gun?
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Mar 6, 2019 01:43
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Char could probably have yea; though I would say that it's early show Char, where he's good at reading enemy commanders and predicting their movement before formulating plans that depend on that prediction (like the aforementioned Luna II, or the battle in the atmosphere); something that he doesn't really do in the second half of the show, when he returns for Jaburo -> A Boa A Qu. He's already pressing early Amuro in a souped up Zaku II and all that stops him from finishing it on a few occasions is that he doesn't have the weapons to damage it. I doubt Zeon should have Goufs, Doms etc. during those first 11 or so episodes , but if you gave him something with weapons capable of damaging the Gundam he could probably do it on his own. By the time he gets a unit capable of hurting the Gundam half way through the show, Amuro has become experienced and skilled enough as a pilot that it no longer matters. In the first dozen episodes though, Char would probably be capable of out-doing him with an upgraded unit. I doubt it'd make much difference to Garma or M'Quve, since mobile suit combat isn't really their strong point, while M'Quve was more concerned with his mining operations and Garma was more concerned with prestige and already kind of depended on Char for much of his plans anyways.
tsob fucked around with this message at 01:51 on Mar 6, 2019 |
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Mar 6, 2019 01:49
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I think for the purposes of this discussion, giving early char doms or goufs or something that didn't exist by that point is a no go. If you're saying "give char twice as many zakus equipped with heat axes, which can damage the gundam" then sure. But you don't think ramba ral could've beaten amuro if he had 10 times as many soldiers, all equipped with doms?
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Mar 6, 2019 01:52
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With ten times as many men all on the go at once, then yea, he almost certainly could have since the Gundam would probably run out of power before Amuro could face all of them for one thing; even if he could technically beat any of those individuals one on one. Ramba really only had 3 or 4 mobile suits at any point in show though, and I'd have thought "more supplies" was "more suits and weapons for his existing men"; not "more men" if you're going by that kind of strict technical reading that wouldn't allow Char upgraded suits. Mobile suits are treated as a fairly rare commodity, not often fielded in large numbers in the first half of the show though. Dozle freaks out that Char lost 3 mobile suits in the first few episodes, and balks at sending him more to replace those and it's not until Odessa that mobile suits start showing up in any kind of numbers if I recall. It's only at Solomon that we start seeing them in the really large numbers tsob fucked around with this message at 02:05 on Mar 6, 2019 |
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Mar 6, 2019 02:00
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tsob posted:Amuro wasn't within a hair's breadth of losing though. His mind, I mean, not to Ral. Ral does nearly overcome the White Base, but that's when he's using guerrilla tactics and not when he's using mobile suits. He's more successful then than he is using mobile suits really, and the only reason he uses those tactics is because he has no more mobile suits. Amuro's crisis at the time is a one of identity after Bright pulls him from piloting duty, which is how he's defined himself on the ship up to that point; so a rejection of that is basically a rejection of Amuro himself. A crises he puts aside literally the first time he sees the White Base might be in danger. He still doesn't get fully over it until Ryu dies, but he runs back as soon as he sees Ral is attacking the White Base. There's an argument to be made that Ral's troops are more effective at guerilla warfare than they are at using mobile suits to fight the White Base because the mobile suits they have available aside from the Gouf are all outdated, poorly supplied cut-rate trash at that point. Zaku models have immense amounts of trouble standing up to the V Project suits at the very beginning of the series when the White Base's pilot corps has no idea what they're doing, nevermind by the time they come into contact with Ral's forces. Ral also had to engage with Amuro at close quarters because that's pretty much the only way his model of Gouf could actually engage - at one point he literally jumps onto the White Base and begins laboriously smashing at the hull with the heat rod because that's the only weapon he has that will damage the ship, since the finger popguns aren't going to do anything to something with real armor. Similarly, his subordinates are piloting outdated Zaku models with machine guns that can't really do poo poo. If all of them had Doms with the Doms' Giant Bazookas that were very capable of cracking the Gundam's armor and doing massive damage to the White Base at a safe range? That might be very different. The Guntank and the Guncannon might have been annihilated before Amuro got back, and the White Base itself might have been crippled. Ral doesn't really need to beat Amuro in a mobile suit duel to win, since the objective point is the White Base and they had plenty of opportunity to gently caress up the White Base had they the weapons to do it with.
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Mar 6, 2019 02:19
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Domon would have won
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Mar 6, 2019 02:35
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Kanos posted:There's an argument to be made that Ral's troops are more effective at guerilla warfare than they are at using mobile suits to fight the White Base because the mobile suits they have available aside from the Gouf are all outdated, poorly supplied cut-rate trash at that point. That argument is somewhat undercut by the fact that even when Zeon soldiers start using Goufs, Rick Doms or Gelgoogs as their main mobile suit the White Base is fine against them until the very end of the show when those guys are in the dozens, if not hundreds rather than 3 or 4. A Bao A Qu being a pretty good example even, since Kycilia confirms in conversation that the Zeon soldiers filling those units are pretty undertrained (i.e. unskilled) and it still takes a huge battle to take down the White Base. Putting bad pilots in great suits won't really make them all that more dangerous and their main advantage will be numbers (which Ral didn't have). Ral's troops are probably more effective at guerrilla warfare for the simple reason that, as Ral said, it's their "old speciality" and probably what they were doing for years prior to the One Year War and the rise of mobile suits as a combat platform everyone was expected to use.
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Mar 6, 2019 02:38
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tsob posted:That argument is somewhat undercut by the fact that even when Zeon soldiers start using Goufs, Rick Doms or Gelgoogs as their main mobile suit the White Base is fine against them until the very end of the show when those guys are in the dozens, if not hundreds rather than 3 or 4. A Bao A Qu being a pretty good example even, since Kycilia confirms in conversation that the Zeon soldiers filling those units are pretty undertrained (i.e. unskilled) and it still takes a huge battle to take down the White Base. Putting bad pilots in great suits won't really make them all that more dangerous and their main advantage will be numbers (which Ral didn't have). That happens much later in the show, and as you yourself have alluded to in the past, the White Base's crew follows a pretty consistent growth pattern from "barely competent and surviving on dint of superior technology and luck" to "unstoppable veteran terminators". In the Ral fight everyone on the White Base's side is basically an incompetent boob, with the Guntank being disabled by a random Zaku leg missile shot, and Ral lured the Gundam away for a substantial portion of the fight; the only reason the White Base wasn't totally crippled is because the most effective way that Ral's troops had available to actually damage their primary target was Ral jumping on the thing and smacking it ineffectively with his heat rod. Like seriously, the "Ral has the White Base completely at his mercy but is stopped by Mirai doing a barrel roll" scene is the strongest argument that I can possibly make that maybe if Ral's men had actual equipment to work with they could have achieved a lot more. They had completely won there but simply lacked the means to force it home. If Ral's men disabled the White Base and then Amuro came back and personally killed every single one of them in a mobile suit duel, that's still mission complete. Kanos fucked around with this message at 02:50 on Mar 6, 2019 |
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Mar 6, 2019 02:48
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I mean, seriously, the whole thing that the Dom brought to the table was the ability to reliably damage Federation ships and mobile suits at long range. Bring a dozen or more against the White Base in the early parts of the show, and you've basically got the endgame of Iron-Blooded Orphans.
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Mar 6, 2019 02:54
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tsob posted:And Kai can become a super Newtype who pilots the Nu Gundam in some games, but I wouldn't be taking that as proof of anything about the actual character or circumstances presented in the animation instead of a fun little "what if" for the player to pursue in a video game. Yeah I was making a joke about how the one robot is better than the other robot and that's why it would've won the robot fight with the hero robot, I'm terribly sorry for interrupting this very nuanced discussion on what would've actually happened if Ramba Ral got his Doms.
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Mar 6, 2019 03:19
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3 posted:Yeah I was making a joke about how the one robot is better than the other robot and that's why it would've won the robot fight with the hero robot, I'm terribly sorry for interrupting this very nuanced discussion on what would've actually happened if Ramba Ral got his Doms. How could you do such a thing in these hallowed halls of Important and Meaningful Discussion™?
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Mar 6, 2019 03:27
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Jesus. Imagine if they make a Gundam game that's based on Dragonball Xenoverse. Can the Turn A Gundam and the Create-A-Gundam preserve the timeline by stopping Cybernewtype Ramba Ral from destroying the White Base?
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Mar 6, 2019 03:42
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HitTheTargets posted:Jesus. Imagine if they make a Gundam game that's based on Dragonball Xenoverse. Can the Turn A Gundam and the Create-A-Gundam preserve the timeline by stopping Cybernewtype Ramba Ral from destroying the White Base? I want that.
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Mar 6, 2019 03:49
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HitTheTargets posted:Jesus. Imagine if they make a Gundam game that's based on Dragonball Xenoverse. Can the Turn A Gundam and the Create-A-Gundam preserve the timeline by stopping Cybernewtype Ramba Ral from destroying the White Base? So Gundam Musou plot/what-ifs with MS Saga or Breaker 3 gamestuff?
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Mar 6, 2019 03:51
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HitTheTargets posted:Jesus. Imagine if they make a Gundam game that's based on Dragonball Xenoverse. Can the Turn A Gundam and the Create-A-Gundam preserve the timeline by stopping Cybernewtype Ramba Ral from destroying the White Base? This is basically the entire premise behind G Gen when they're not being incredibly boring about it and just having you play through the stories but with your own units. When they get crazy and do poo poo like "Doan from Doan's Island learns how to do Hyper Mode in a Zaku from hanging out with Domon" it gets radical.
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Mar 6, 2019 03:51
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Crusader kings 2: but it's gundam
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Mar 6, 2019 04:44
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Nissin Cup Nudist posted:Domon would have won The Dom of mine is burning red!
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Mar 6, 2019 04:55
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ninjewtsu posted:Crusader kings 2: but it's gundam Neatly tying the whole discussion up, Gihren's Ambition is about as close to CK2: Gundam as you're going to get, with an obviously more granular approach to combat than CK2.
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Mar 6, 2019 05:06
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HitTheTargets posted:Jesus. Imagine if they make a Gundam game that's based on Dragonball Xenoverse. Can the Turn A Gundam and the Create-A-Gundam preserve the timeline by stopping Cybernewtype Ramba Ral from destroying the White Base? ninjewtsu posted:Crusader kings 2: but it's gundam I keep throwing money at the screen and nothing's happening 
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Mar 6, 2019 05:25
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Kanos posted:Neatly tying the whole discussion up, Gihren's Ambition is about as close to CK2: Gundam as you're going to get, with an obviously more granular approach to combat than CK2. and you're telling me no english translation of this exists?
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Mar 6, 2019 06:22
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ninjewtsu posted:and you're telling me no english translation of this exists? No. It’s a niche (video game) of a niche (long complex strategy wargame) of a niche (anime) of a niche (mecha) market, and much as I’d love to see one it will never happen.
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Mar 6, 2019 06:56
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I dunno, I figure if we get a new one anytime soon it will probably get a SEA English translation like several of the other Gundam games in the last couple of years It has been the better part of a decade since the last game in the series came out after all
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Mar 6, 2019 08:08
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Plastic_Gargoyle posted:Uh...do you have examples of this? I'd never noticed it before. Both versions of the Shiden custom have them (Shino's was on the visor, Ride on the shoulder and front), as does the Red Beret Grimoire. The Kabakali also has something that looks like a swastika on its leg. I would love to be mistaken about this, but it doesn't look good.   
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Mar 6, 2019 10:14
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3 posted:Yeah I was making a joke about how the one robot is better than the other robot and that's why it would've won the robot fight with the hero robot, I'm terribly sorry for interrupting this very nuanced discussion on what would've actually happened if Ramba Ral got his Doms. On the other hand, I was enjoying discussing Gundam in the Gundam discussion thread and you reiterated a point that had already been made and which basically just summarizes the actual discussion in a straightforward manner that I still can't honestly read as humor (i.e. Poe's Law) given context, and now several posts seem to suggest I should feel embarrassed at enjoying discussing Gundam in the Gundam discussion thread. Or at least that I was being pompous by enjoying discussing minutiae of Gundam in an exhaustive manner. Midjack posted:No. It’s a niche (video game) of a niche (long complex strategy wargame) of a niche (anime) of a niche (mecha) market, and much as I’d love to see one it will never happen. How are video games niche? That might have been true up to the late 1990's or even early 2000's at a stretch, but by the time the Playstation 2 really got going and there were nearly as many PS2's as teles in some countries I don't see how you could possibly hold that true. It'd be like calling movies or books niche. Actually, books are probably more niche than video games these days. tsob fucked around with this message at 10:40 on Mar 6, 2019 |
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Mar 6, 2019 10:32
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Gihrens Greed is absolutely niche though
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Mar 6, 2019 10:34
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Oh sure, and mecha and strategy games as a whole almost certainly are too (though I'm not sure anime really qualifies either honestly). Video games are not though, and the post I was replying to seemed to be suggesting they were.
tsob fucked around with this message at 10:41 on Mar 6, 2019 |
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Mar 6, 2019 10:35
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tsob posted:Oh sure, and mecha and strategy games as a whole almost certainly are too (though I'm not sure anime really qualifies either honestly). Video games are not though, and the post I was replying to seemed to be suggesting they were. This is just too precious.
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Mar 6, 2019 16:17
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The outcome of resupplying Ranba Ral with Doms in Gihren's Greed is that a bit after you do, he shows back up at Side 3 with White Base, the Guncannon, and Guntank in tow 
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Mar 6, 2019 18:17
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drrockso20 posted:I dunno, I figure if we get a new one anytime soon it will probably get a SEA English translation like several of the other Gundam games in the last couple of years They may wait for Unicorn 2 so they can put Unicorn, NT, and UC2 into it. There hasn’t been a lot of new UC stuff in the last decade to extend the timeline or have a new faction, though Sleeves could be a thing after NT. Chaos option: do F91, Victory, and Crossbone after the EFF/Zeon conflict is over.
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Mar 6, 2019 18:29
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