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Burning_Monk posted:Also making all the evil mirror versions bi-sexual was so loving 90's it hurts to watch now. Except they also do this in Discovery. 
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Apr 3, 2019 15:20
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MikeJF posted:Discovery [...] is downright regressive. Despite being the Trek with the most diverse cast (and Trek's first gays, even if they have apparently still been forced to suffer because reasons) and despite claims to be "so woke u guys", Discovery is regressive in a ton of ways. And part of me still likes it despite all these huge issues 
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Apr 3, 2019 15:25
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Discovery has like "clean, tasteful love gay" for Prime and "kinky, horny pansexual" for Mirror, and it's sort of terrible from every angle.
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Apr 3, 2019 15:26
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I'm working my way through DS9 myself (just started season 3), and although I really enjoyed Crossover, I kinda dread the Mirror Universe episodes to come. The concept became less effective and good with each return to that universe. Nana Visitor said in an interview that she saw the Intendant less as bisexual than interested in "our" Kira because of ego. I like that interpretation much better than what we eventually got.
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Apr 3, 2019 15:30
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EvilTaytoMan posted:To be fair in the TOS episode Mirror Spock predicted that the Terran Empire would collapse, so at most all he did was accelerate its demise. And the Terrans were described as barbaric rather than evil and not everyone was that different from their prime counterparts so making over the top evil arseholes was a misstep on DS9's part. Yeah, what makes sense there in the long run is that the Terran Empire has an incredibly dysfunctional internal structure (worse than Klingons would later be codified to have) and their imperialistic policies are making enemies left and right. Spock's policies causing the Empire to crumble out of weakness might well be a revisionist take on what was inevitable, coloured by no small about of bitterness and bigotry. While the Federation has a robust internal structure, policies strongly emphasising making friends rather than enemies, and manages to coexist far better than could be expected with very different societies because they're determined to be good neighbours.
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Apr 3, 2019 15:32
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Tbh, i don’t think you need narcissism as an excuse to want to seduce Kira, for she is bangin’. I do feel that someone could actually write a fairly interesting episode about meeting your own clone and neither one of us being virgins, but they certainly didn’t do it.
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Apr 3, 2019 15:37
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Brawnfire posted:Discovery has like "clean, tasteful love gay" for Prime and "kinky, horny pansexual" for Mirror, and it's sort of terrible from every angle. Don't forget that between Hoshi, Kira and Georgiou the mirror universe is all about those drat women in charge, it's so evil.
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Apr 3, 2019 15:39
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MikeJF posted:Don't forget that between Hoshi, Kira and Georgiou the mirror universe is all about those drat women in charge, it's so evil. It's only natural that such an aggressively duplicitous society would favor nature's greatest backstabber: Woman.
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Apr 3, 2019 15:42
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F_Shit_Fitzgerald posted:Nana Visitor said in an interview that she saw the Intendant less as bisexual than interested in "our" Kira because of ego. I like that interpretation much better than what we eventually got. Visitor came to hate the Mirror Universe episodes because of what she saw as the cheapening of the character as the episodes continued. Andrew Robinson agreed, saying that he cheered when Mirror Universe Garak was killed off, because they had thrown out all the nuance, subtlety and menace of Garak and replaced it with over the top, blatant villainy. Really, besides the original mirror universe story, the only one I liked was Enterprise's, and even that dragged in the second part, because the cast just committed themselves so much to over the top hamminess. There was so much evil speechifying and sneering, it was great.
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Apr 3, 2019 15:45
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Yeah, Enterprise was by far the best, they just had some hammy fun.
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Apr 3, 2019 15:52
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Drone posted:Despite being the Trek with the most diverse cast (and Trek's first gays, even if they have apparently still been forced to suffer because reasons) and despite claims to be "so woke u guys", Discovery is regressive in a ton of ways. I hope they didn't try to sell their version of the klingons as more woke because we went from vaguely humanized characters with actual culture whose main representative on the show is basically a diaspora kid who buys into idealized nonsense to... brown-skinned subhuman monsters I can't imagine the Klingon chef after seeing the disco pilot and an universe without the klingon chef is obviously the evil one Also unironically Voyager's unstated MU episode is probably the one that hits closest to the actual TOS Mirror episodes, but In a Mirror Darkly is the one that feels more fun even if it's cheap fanservice. Agnosticnixie fucked around with this message at 16:20 on Apr 3, 2019 |
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Apr 3, 2019 16:16
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MikeJF posted:
Discovery’s issue, aside from the actual writing, is that if you’re going to go back and mine the past go all the way. Otherwise, move into the future and do something new. This was Enterprise’s main handicap as well. When it filled in the backstory of the Federation it was at its strongest. The Temporal Cold War sapped energy from a show with a decent premise. skasion posted:Tbh, i don’t think you need narcissism as an excuse to want to seduce Kira, for she is bangin’. I do feel that someone could actually write a fairly interesting episode about meeting your own clone and neither one of us being virgins, but they certainly didn’t do it. Dr. Who did this with the Master. Mirror Kira trying to sleep another version of herself was the best part of the episode. You don’t need narcissism as a reason but in this case it was the only reason. Also, Odo blowed up real good and Prime Kira not knowing or caring who Kirk was. As alt-Trek, DS9 made point after over used point to not only stop bowing to previous Trek but tear it down a bit. Very 90’s Bi-Garak, is probably the closest we’ll see of Andrew Robinson’s original version of Garak. You can kind of see it when he starts engaging Bashir in early DS9. The producers really toned it down and discarded it. It was a bit much in the age of “don’t ask, don’t tell”. We did get the first lesbian kiss on broadcast tv. Not exactly a Nichols/Shatner moment but it did get a blurb in Entertainment Weekly. Mirror Universe sexuality is lascivious, hedonistic. In Utopia Federation you can be any persuasion you want as long as it’s in a caring monogamous relationship. Except if your Riker. Or Kirk. Automatic Slim fucked around with this message at 16:48 on Apr 3, 2019 |
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Apr 3, 2019 16:42
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Perfect future man Picard is still the only captain in 50 years who canonically slept with one of his subordinates
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Apr 3, 2019 16:45
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Re: Vulcan FuryDrone posted:Still. Seven hours of recorded dialogue from the entire TOS cast would be amazing to have pop up out of nowhere. This would be an amazing find even if it's just a bunch of wav/mp3 files in a folder. That's a lot of recordings of people who are dead and gone now. It would be neat to hear those unheard lines. I have a secret hope that someone would anonymously develop a HD remake of the other adventure games with audio and only let people know they're doing it when it's done so there's no hope of a takedown before then. About the DS9 mirror episodes, it strikes me that they are just the equivalent of the Voyager episodes where they did that drat Captain Proton holodeck thing. Just a bunch of campyness with no real attempt at having a point.
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Apr 3, 2019 16:49
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Nullsmack posted:Re: Vulcan Fury I mean, obviously Interplay doesn't exist anymore in that form, but I wonder if tweeting it at some of the people who worked on the project would result in anything. I mean, one would hope someone saved the data somewhere, but a poo poo ton of game stuff gets lost all the time because nobody cares about archiving anything. Like, three of those cast members are dead, and hearing some new, never-before-released DeForest Kelley/James Doohan/Leonard Nimoy would be mindblowingly cool.
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Apr 3, 2019 16:53
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I could see the star trek online people using that voicework for their game
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Apr 3, 2019 17:03
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Agnosticnixie posted:
Living Witness?
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Apr 3, 2019 17:11
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Drone posted:I mean, obviously Interplay doesn't exist anymore in that form, but I wonder if tweeting it at some of the people who worked on the project would result in anything. I mean, one would hope someone saved the data somewhere, but a poo poo ton of game stuff gets lost all the time because nobody cares about archiving anything. I'm pretty sure they got asked this years and years ago, I remember people being pretty obsessed with this game in the early 2000's.
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Apr 3, 2019 17:12
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Is there a good reason why the Tholians never joined the Dominion outside of the cost of portraying them? Efficient, punctual, ruthless, it seems like they’d want to go all in on that.
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Apr 3, 2019 17:15
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Thom12255 posted:Living Witness? Yeah, that's the one. It's not really the MU but it functions as such down to the nomenclature and costume design, except less slutty and more "basically the galactic empire with trek visuals" (and it turns the Intrepid into some horrendous original-ship-do-not-steal military fan design for bonus points) but it also mostly focuses on asking a question rather than the camp itself. And then there's Bride of Chaotica which is also great.
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Apr 3, 2019 17:17
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Automatic Slim posted:We did get the first lesbian kiss on broadcast tv. Don't be surprised, but there's a whole Wikipedia article on this.
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Apr 3, 2019 17:21
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People around here tend to like later DS9 but imho the characterization, the best part, really began to flatten out. S3 is probably peak for everyone. Later it's like, Jadzia is Worfs Girlfriend, Dukats all over the place, Bashir sucks, it's like they have no idea what to do with anyone. Can't believe Kira stands by Her Man so much that she acts like Odo wasn't the most collaboratory collaborator who ever collaborated
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Apr 3, 2019 17:30
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Nodosaur posted:Is there a good reason why the Tholians never joined the Dominion outside of the cost of portraying them? Efficient, punctual, ruthless, it seems like they’d want to go all in on that. They’re huge xenophobes, so I guess they just preferred the Founders to leave them alone. There’s a throwaway line in the fifth season finale about how they and the Romulans have signed NAPs with the Dominion.
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Apr 3, 2019 17:34
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Agnosticnixie posted:Perfect future man Picard is still the only captain in 50 years who canonically slept with one of his subordinates Janeway banged Chakotay and Paris. Granted that both situations had extenuating circumstances
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Apr 3, 2019 17:41
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skasion posted:They’re huge xenophobes, so I guess they just preferred the Founders to leave them alone. There’s a throwaway line in the fifth season finale about how they and the Romulans have signed NAPs with the Dominion. In a lot of versions of Trek's galactic map, the Tholians also don't have a border with the Cardassian area of space - STO's has them in between the Federation and Romulans.
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Apr 3, 2019 17:44
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Pick posted:People around here tend to like later DS9 but imho the characterization, the best part, really began to flatten out. S3 is probably peak for everyone. Later it's like, Jadzia is Worfs Girlfriend, Dukats all over the place, Bashir sucks, it's like they have no idea what to do with anyone. Can't believe Kira stands by Her Man so much that she acts like Odo wasn't the most collaboratory collaborator who ever collaborated Dukat went all over the place because the writers started to freak out that fans loved Space-Hitler.
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Apr 3, 2019 17:44
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Alaimo is too charismatic for anything else. They should have stopped having him, or improved the other characters. But if he was onscreen he was going to be hot as hell
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Apr 3, 2019 17:46
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Angry Salami posted:DS9's mirror universe was just a mistake all round. The idea that Spock's reforms just made the Empire soft and weak is probably the most nasty, cynical idea in all of Star Trek, the Intendant becomes more and more of a cartoon character every time they revisit the setting - and she didn't have much depth to start with, mirror Garak is a total waste of Andrew Robinson, and, as you said, both sides are assholes so why the hell should we even care? DS9 being nasty and cynical, why I never.
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Apr 3, 2019 17:54
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Bashir is way better for the rest of the series once they stop writing him as a creep
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Apr 3, 2019 17:55
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Drone posted:Despite being the Trek with the most diverse cast (and Trek's first gays, even if they have apparently still been forced to suffer because reasons) and despite claims to be "so woke u guys", Discovery is regressive in a ton of ways. You guys aren't helping your case for making me want to watch this junk.
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Apr 3, 2019 18:04
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Son of Sam-I-Am posted:You guys aren't helping your case for making me want to watch this junk. If you think the thread is fervently trying to get people to watch Discovery, you haven't been reading it very well Now, TOS/TNG/DS9 is another story
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Apr 3, 2019 18:06
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Sodomy Hussein posted:DS9 being nasty and cynical, why I never. I'd argue DS9 is less cynical and nasty than people like to claim. I mean everyone keeps linking the Root Beer scene as "federation.avi" because of how well it portrays an outsider's view of the Federation's idealistic utopia, but they always leave off the last two sentences: Garak: Do you think they can save us? Quark: I hope so. For all the faults that DS9 points out about the Federation, for all the concerns Garak, Quark and others have about what the Federation's influence does to their own culture, for all the concerns they have about having to live by the Federation's rules, they would rather have the Federation on their side than against them if a fight breaks out. Which really is what DS9 was kind of about. The Federation isn't as perfect as envisioned, but they didn't turn the cynicism dial all the way to the other side. Angry_Ed fucked around with this message at 18:10 on Apr 3, 2019 |
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Apr 3, 2019 18:08
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That said, the Federation is their hope because it is militarily powerful and has control over the Emissary, not because it bears any specific ideology.
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Apr 3, 2019 18:25
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Also like the end of the show definitely makes it clear that Quark is like the conservative uncle of the family who eventually gets over the whole "things have changed" thing. I also like the good touch at the very end of Ross and Sisko being ostensibly nauseated by the aftermath of the battle of Cardassia which I felt was a good reminder that at heart even the federation's ostensible military is not an aristocratic warrior caste society for all its warts. Also the cardassians flipping sides in the final episodes is imo trek as hell although the whole cardassian partisans subplot could easily have deserved stretching the show over 8 seasons. IIRC a fair amount of the post DS9 Beta Canon goes the "rebuilding, hope for the future, learn to enjoy root beer" approach for both Ferenginar and Cardassia too.
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Apr 3, 2019 18:34
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The emissary thing didn’t really have anything to do with that scene, given the characters and situation, and if it wasn’t militarily powerful there wouldn’t be much of a show to have from the Federation perspective. It may not be a specific ideology but I always read it more like it will save them because that’s what the Federation does. No matter what they may think of how the Fed pulls in and “converts” more members neither of their respective cultures are going to lift a finger to help them or people like them.
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Apr 3, 2019 18:39
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Nodosaur posted:Is there a good reason why the Tholians never joined the Dominion outside of the cost of portraying them? Efficient, punctual, ruthless, it seems like they’d want to go all in on that. They did sign a non-aggression pact. Generally the tholians don't start poo poo, and the secondary canon stuff about the tholians being integrated across the normal and mirror universes goes a long way towards explaining why they distrust humanoids so much.
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Apr 3, 2019 18:40
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Pick posted:because it is militarily powerful and has control over the Emissary, not because it bears any specific ideology. Noted Bajoran religious adherents Quark and Garak....
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Apr 3, 2019 18:43
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Kibayasu posted:The emissary thing didn’t really have anything to do with that scene, given the characters and situation, and if it wasn’t militarily powerful there wouldn’t be much of a show to have from the Federation perspective. It may not be a specific ideology but I always read it more like it will save them because that’s what the Federation does. No matter what they may think of how the Fed pulls in and “converts” more members neither of their respective cultures are going to lift a finger to help them or people like them. "If your accounts on Ferenginar were worth anything you wouldn't be working as a waiter" is the most "Ferengi as 20th century americans" line in the show and feels like it ties really well to the whole idea that the ferengi alliance esp. pre-reforms is definitely not going to give a flying gently caress about an off-world club owner and his staff.
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Apr 3, 2019 18:46
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Son of Sam-I-Am posted:You guys aren't helping your case for making me want to watch this junk. You should watch it. The federation grim dark end justifies the means take that a lot of people here have about Discovery is totally overblown. Especially in season two with the mirror universe and klingon war storylines done with. The show comes down on the side of Federation values and is not on the side of the mirror universe characters or section 31 characters. Discovery hasn't reached the heights of the best of TOS, TNG and DS9 but it's worst episodes are better than the worst of those shows and definitely better than Voyager or Enterprise. Agnosticnixie posted:"If your accounts on Ferenginar were worth anything you wouldn't be working as a waiter" is the most "Ferengi as 20th century americans" line in the show and feels like it ties really well to the whole idea that the ferengi alliance esp. pre-reforms is definitely not going to give a flying gently caress about an off-world club owner and his staff. Quark's finances and status do seem to vary considerably depending on the plot needs of the episode. Sometimes he's at the heart of Ferengi politics and sometimes he's just a nobody.
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Apr 3, 2019 18:49
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Drone posted:I mean, obviously Interplay doesn't exist anymore in that form, but I wonder if tweeting it at some of the people who worked on the project would result in anything. I mean, one would hope someone saved the data somewhere, but a poo poo ton of game stuff gets lost all the time because nobody cares about archiving anything. Who knows? I have read recently somewhere that the people who created the 3D models and other materials used in the CGI for DS9 and Voyager still have most of their original files saved. Maybe someone saved this data or maybe the computer that held it ended up being pawned off on Ebay. Hell, someone found the source code for Starcraft on there back in 2017
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Apr 3, 2019 18:51
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