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Blade_of_tyshalle posted:How hard is it for Starfleet to make a ship, though? They have literal magic machines to make parts on demand, instantly put them in the worksite, then move them around the site without having to touch them. Star Trek isn't very good with stuff like that. Yes you've got magical medicine that can instantly heal people or replicators that make parts from protein in the air but the actual implications of that are pretty much totally ignored. So the answer is "Still quite hard even though logically it shouldn't be hard at all"
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May 27, 2019 02:28
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It's one of those things that matters in the moment. Starfleet can assemble ships quickly compared to say, the years it could take to make an age of sail ship, but if they could just magic up infinite ships then the Borg would stop being an issue overnight. Plus the design of the Star Trek shipyard is cool, fight me.
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May 27, 2019 02:46
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What are humans paying with at Quark's? Jake and Nog mention humans not having money in the episode where they want to buy a baseball card. Quark clearly charges humans in a ton of episodes. Do most humans on DS9 figure out a way to get the local currency while Jake is writing?
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May 27, 2019 03:24
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Spacebump posted:What are humans paying with at Quark's? Jake and Nog mention humans not having money in the episode where they want to buy a baseball card. Quark clearly charges humans in a ton of episodes. Do most humans on DS9 figure out a way to get the local currency while Jake is writing? I don't think they ever outright stated it, but there must have been some kind of credit arrangement or stipend given to Starfleet personnel on DS9. The Federation most certainly kept some reserve of foreign currencies for the purposes of trading, it probably comes from there.
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May 27, 2019 03:33
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Here's my standard disclaimer about how the economy of Star Trek doesn't make any sense, and you just have to go with it.
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May 27, 2019 04:11
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Epicurius posted:Here's my standard disclaimer about how the economy of Star Trek doesn't make any sense, and you just have to go with it. Star Trek truly is left-wing.
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May 27, 2019 04:52
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Rod Squad is a great display of Sisko's "I'm being clever" face and I wish we got more of it. The other big one I can think of is when the whole Javert-Maquis thing is going on but I'm sure I've forgotten one or two.
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May 27, 2019 04:57
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Spacebump posted:What are humans paying with at Quark's? Jake and Nog mention humans not having money in the episode where they want to buy a baseball card. Quark clearly charges humans in a ton of episodes. Do most humans on DS9 figure out a way to get the local currency while Jake is writing? humans sometimes have money in trek, sometimes they don't, it all depends on who was writing that day and what was more convenient for the plot
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May 27, 2019 04:59
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Tunicate posted:humans sometimes have money in trek, sometimes they don't, it all depends on who was writing that day and what was more convenient for the plot Like when Beverly in "Encounter at Farpoint" charges a dress to her account aboard the Enterprise.
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May 27, 2019 05:12
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My read on the money thing after all the gradual retcons is that humans have it but don't actually need to use it for necessities and basic luxuries, which are all provided to them by the space communists. Even the cash they do spend may just be a basic income-style stipend for advanced luxuries rather than coming from any kind of job-related source.
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May 27, 2019 05:40
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Roadie posted:My read on the money thing after all the gradual retcons is that humans have it but don't actually need to use it for necessities and basic luxuries, which are all provided to them by the space communists. Even the cash they do spend may just be a basic income-style stipend for advanced luxuries rather than coming from any kind of job-related source. and also we're seeing life aboard a spaceship in the federation 'not'military, so having food and lodging provided is part of the job would love to see a ferengi ship where crew members have to rent out their bunks tho that'd be hilarious
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May 27, 2019 06:54
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Taear posted:Star Trek isn't very good with stuff like that. we dunno what replicators can do. Industrial replicators are supposed to "get cardassia's economy back on the ground". What the gently caress? Aren't they gigantic replicators that can just make anything???????????????????? Same with the ones they gave to bajor. They gave them FOUR industrial replicators and there's still things like war orphans with limited resources and not enough fertilizer, don't they have replicators? ??? I think replicated stuff is maybe not as good as other stuff but it does in a pinch? Here's another thing, Keiko literally says she's been slaving over a replicator all night. What the gently caress does that mean?
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May 27, 2019 07:13
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TheDiceMustRoll posted:Same with the ones they gave to bajor. They gave them FOUR industrial replicators and there's still things like war orphans with limited resources and not enough fertilizer, don't they have replicators? ??? Guys, guys! What if we use our four replicators to make more jumja sticks
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May 27, 2019 07:19
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I assume replicating a replicator is like putting a bag of holding inside another bag of holding.
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May 27, 2019 08:07
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Well, put it this way: what prevents people with 3D printers from just using them to print more 3D printers?
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May 27, 2019 08:22
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What am I a wizard, how should I know? (Yes obviously but that's less fun.)
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May 27, 2019 08:27
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I always assumed that, based on the occasional comments by people complaining about replicated food, replicators don't perfectly replicate materials. So it's ok to make lunch with it when the worst that will happen is it might taste a bit off, but you really don't want to be cutting corners like that when it comes to manufacturing a starship engine or antimatter pods.
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May 27, 2019 08:35
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Farmer Crack-rear end posted:Well, put it this way: what prevents people with 3D printers from just using them to print more 3D printers? The halting problem and Godel's mathematical bitchslap.
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May 27, 2019 08:53
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I figure an industrial replicator is fine for large scale ‘wall goes here, staircase goes here’ stuff, but it’s not on a ‘build another replicator’ level. I’d imagine it’s much the same for starship building. Like they’ll make big metal panels for hull plating (think of all that aztecing), corridor panels and so on, but a full warp core requires hands on engineers to put together.
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May 27, 2019 09:56
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We know Dilithium and Latinum are unreplicable, it's not unreasonable to think advanced technology contains unreplicable elements. Stuff like quantum computers you'd think would be unreplicable, since you have to suspend your qbits in a very delicate quantum state. They never really establish that, though. I wouldn't be surprised if Starship hulls or stuff are made of some metamaterial that can't be replicated directly in-place either but is stronger than regular matter. MikeJF fucked around with this message at 10:36 on May 27, 2019 |
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May 27, 2019 10:28
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MikeJF posted:I wouldn't be surprised if Starship hulls or stuff are made of some metamaterial that... is stronger than regular matter. Pretend I posted a half hour long video of Star Trek ships exploding like cheap pinatas here because it's too late to find out if it exists.
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May 27, 2019 10:43
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Bajor and Cardassia may also have less ample energy than the typical federation planet. It seems like the Federation has ubiquitous fusion power to keep the lights on on planets and uses antimatter to power starships and such where space is a factor (and maybe you need antimatter to make the warp go? unclear) Bajor was under military occupation for decades and Cardassia seems like the kind of place where they would feel it is a great idea to not spend a dollar on your occupied zone's infrastructure, in order to teach them a lesson of some kind. Anyway this ties into the replicators since they seem to be a way to turn your cheap power into various goods instead of storing a bunch of crap and pushing it around or unpacking it. So I would imagine an industrial replicator would let you skip a bunch of finicky intermediate production steps and building a complex supply chain, but wouldn't just be a machine that gushes forth undefined Post-Scarcity Infrastructure Pavement. Also they're all a Section 31 psy-op and every replicator contains a tiny tardigrade getting CBT, but we all knew that in our hearts.
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May 27, 2019 11:47
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Which CBT acronym are you using there?
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May 27, 2019 11:54
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The_Doctor posted:Which CBT acronym are you using there? Honestly, they deserve some therapy after what the Feds do to them with those nipple clamps
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May 27, 2019 12:14
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Also, at least in the case of Bajor, the government was such a mess that an industrial replicator probably didn't get stuff to the people who actually needed it.
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May 27, 2019 12:32
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Mooseontheloose posted:Also, at least in the case of Bajor, the government was such a mess that an industrial replicator probably didn't get stuff to the people who actually needed it. Isn't there a literal throwaway line about how the replicators "still haven't finished doing X and they're Y behind" or something like that.
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May 27, 2019 12:35
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Nessus posted:Bajor and Cardassia may also have less ample energy than the typical federation planet. It seems like the Federation has ubiquitous fusion power to keep the lights on on planets and uses antimatter to power starships and such where space is a factor (and maybe you need antimatter to make the warp go? unclear) I got the impression from Star Trek IV that we used solar power on earth. Maybe solar satellite swarm? In early DS9 Bajor converted a moon with a molten core to a dedicated power generation facility, destroying the surface in the process. I'm guessing it's the same thing Praxis was but less explodey. Antimatter's not really a power generation method, it's a power storage method. They use the plentiful power sources in star systems to create antimatter to fuel ships, and then ships can use that antimatter to have enough energy to drive around. Overall it's a net loss, but it lets you store enough energy in a relatively small space to make starships practical. Stations just use huge fusion generators. MikeJF fucked around with this message at 12:43 on May 27, 2019 |
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May 27, 2019 12:38
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The_Doctor posted:I figure an industrial replicator is fine for large scale ‘wall goes here, staircase goes here’ stuff, but it’s not on a ‘build another replicator’ level. I’d imagine it’s much the same for starship building. Like they’ll make big metal panels for hull plating (think of all that aztecing), corridor panels and so on, but a full warp core requires hands on engineers to put together. MikeJF posted:We know Dilithium and Latinum are unreplicable, it's not unreasonable to think advanced technology contains unreplicable elements. Stuff like quantum computers you'd think would be unreplicable, since you have to suspend your qbits in a very delicate quantum state. They never really establish that, though. That's been my read on it too. There seems to be a bunch of materials that can't be replicated. There may also be some sort of size limit to what the industrial replicators can make that may not be practical when it comes to ship building.
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May 27, 2019 14:18
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Despite not really "getting" DS9, that reached one of the same conclusions as this thread.  Whatever you think of this show, this episode has an amazing bit of them doing an impression of Kurn describing a contemporary piece of technology
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May 27, 2019 14:38
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I'm starting to run a Star Trek Adventures Campaign and in line with some of the conversations being had, I find it kind of surprising how murky Star Trek lore is. It's nice because there are a few people who are less familiar with the series and it doesn't really matter as long as you get the broad strokes. Romulans Bad, the word frequency can explain anything. There is one thing that I'm sort of debating in how I handle with my take on things especially since I have one player who is really into being disillusioned with Starfleet. So, which of the following is actually true? A) Humans are an incredibly dominant force in Starfleet because of Reasons and they literally do make up most of Starfleet, B) Starfleet is a mostly segregated coalition. While different species can serve on alien ships, species mostly stay on their own ships and work under their own admirals. So while the human ships tend to be a big deal, there are theoretically a bunch of Andorian ships going on their own adventures and are filled with mostly Andorians with a token human here and there. C) You're just supposed to understand that Starfleet isn't actually dominated by humans, is supposed to be incredibly diverse, and you're just watching shows that can't afford to look like the Star Wars Cantina every episode. Just like how you're probably supposed to assume that white people aren't actually overly represented. I know there's not actually an answer to this, but wanted to sort of put it forward anyways, partially to garner other ideas. I'm leaning towards it is very diverse, but there is a legitimate human domination problem. Timeless Appeal fucked around with this message at 15:12 on May 27, 2019 |
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May 27, 2019 14:44
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It's D&D racial characteristics Humans are driven to explore far more than other races so they make up most of star fleet but not the actual Federation government Most mooks on Blimpie Alpha Three never have any interaction with Star fleet in their entire lives and they don't care
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May 27, 2019 14:57
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Going by discovery it's more option C, since they have a higher budget and have really Star Wars Cantina'd up the ship to some degree
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May 27, 2019 15:02
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Timeless Appeal posted:
With TOS I think they'd just not decided. There's a bit of TNG where it feels like it's option B. But nowadays it feels more like it's option C, they just couldn't afford the time and effort to have loads of non-humans. Especially when most aliens are just straight up humans anyway.
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May 27, 2019 15:20
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TOS actually does have species segregated ships in Starfleet, there’s a Vulcan starship that gets killed in “The Immunity Syndrome” and the Enterprise is explicitly a human ship with only one (half-)alien officer. In TAS though, when they don’t have to worry about makeup budget anymore, they stick in two more alien bridge crew right away, and the movies (and TNG and its spinoffs which stem from them) also kinda lean in this direction: Ilia, weird foot guy from Undiscovered Country, etc.
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May 27, 2019 15:27
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AlBorlantern Corps posted:Going by discovery it's more option C, since they have a higher budget and have really Star Wars Cantina'd up the ship to some degree Yeah, I like that they've been able to have more alien crew members in Discovery. I would imagine there are some explicitly single species ships for the ones with different life support needs like Benzites. My favorite low-key ongoing joke is that the Bolian racial trait is "just loving destroys bathrooms". Grand Fromage fucked around with this message at 16:38 on May 27, 2019 |
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May 27, 2019 16:35
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Grand Fromage posted:My favorite low-key ongoing joke is that the Bolian racial trait is "just loving destroys bathrooms". "Someone Bolianed the bathroom again I can't even transport this one"
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May 27, 2019 17:00
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Yeah, it's mainly supposed to be C, but there's enough evidence for A or B depending on when you're setting the campaign that you can just have it be either of those for your purposes.
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May 27, 2019 17:21
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Angry Salami posted:I always assumed that, based on the occasional comments by people complaining about replicated food, replicators don't perfectly replicate materials. So it's ok to make lunch with it when the worst that will happen is it might taste a bit off, but you really don't want to be cutting corners like that when it comes to manufacturing a starship engine or antimatter pods. No, no, the problem is that it DOES perfectly replicate whatever...every time. Meaning every single time, ever, any given recipe is exactly the same. EXACTLY the same. Right down to every individual bit of texture in every given square cm of the contents of the plate. That poo poo would get pretty drat old pretty fast. Given that every single non-Starfleet/other advanced replicator society person exposed to replicated food/drinks claim that they're amazing, even tastier than the real thing, it fairly clearly seems to suggest that replicated fare isn't bad in any way, it's just...different, and it takes familiarity to breed contempt for it. Plus, most of the people complaining about it tend to be the sort of people that would be complaining about fast food in the modern day. Not, like, in the way everybody does, but the ones that get really obnoxious about it. Maquis types who think their dirt garden is worth more than the lives of people on ships facing each other down over the border, or the son of a chef who grew up working in his father's restaurant, and so forth.
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May 27, 2019 17:33
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There was a book that straight-up said B was the case. Because different species have different biological needs and atmospheric preferences and such so it's more comfortable for everyone to group crews together by species as much as possible. The existence of the rear end in a top hat Vulcan ship from DS9's baseball episode supports this as well.
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May 27, 2019 17:36
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EimiYoshikawa posted:No, no, the problem is that it DOES perfectly replicate whatever...every time. Meaning every single time, ever, any given recipe is exactly the same. EXACTLY the same. Right down to every individual bit of texture in every given square cm of the contents of the plate. You'd think they'd be able to keep multiple examples of each dish, and randomly select one each time. (Or if you know you REALLY like the way Plomeek Soup #47 was made, you can specify.) But hey, maybe replicator patterns take up more space in the computer than I'm assuming here.
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May 27, 2019 17:56
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