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You absolutely know that Doppio would have trusted Diavolo 100% but Diavolo would murder the gently caress out of Doppio if it brought him a literal inch closer to the arrow.
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Jul 1, 2019 02:36
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Thinking on it a little more, this would also make each fight a separate configuration of KC and Epitaph. Bruno had to fight them both working together at full power, which is why that fight ends with "all of us will die, run." Risotto only had to fight Doppio alone, so that fight was Epitaph having to make do without King Crimson. And this final battle is the opposite, with Doppio torn out of Diavolo's body so Diavolo would have to make use of King Crimson without relying on Epitaph's sight.
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Jul 1, 2019 02:47
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Epitaph being Doppio's power makes so much sense that when I originally read the manga I thought that was what it was supposed to be.
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Jul 1, 2019 02:57
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What if they actually are separate powers (because, you know, two souls) and Doppio just THINKS he's being given Epitaph to use? Like how he thinks he's getting a phone call? 
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Jul 1, 2019 02:59
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I mean, even perfect ten-second precognition seems like something the average Jojo protagonist could find a workaround for. Just plan beyond those ten seconds and start luring your enemy into traps.
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Jul 1, 2019 03:00
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Anonymous Robot posted:But instead of having a plot that utilizes the organization and practices of the mafia in any meaningful way, we get a pretty close mirror of part 3. Part 5 really isn’t a crime story in any fashion, and that seems like a lost opportunity to me. I feel like the source of a number of complaints about this part seem to start when Trish first shows up, honestly. That's pretty much the point Giorno's character changes, the anti-hero elements get dropped, etc. Not I dislike Trish, mind you. It's just that her presence led to a shift in dynamics back to the normal rather than the divergent direction things seemed to be going. painted into a coroner posted:Diavolo would murder the gently caress out of Doppio if it brought him a literal inch closer to the arrow. I mean he basically killed him through inaction. Blueberry Pancakes fucked around with this message at 06:19 on Jul 1, 2019 |
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Jul 1, 2019 06:04
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Can you like or dislike Trish? She's done nothing, barely a character. She's a prop
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Jul 1, 2019 06:23
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She's, uh, okay that one time? I guess? I don't have particularly strong feelings about her, really.
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Jul 1, 2019 08:05
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Diavolo isn't a terrible character, he's just not as awesome as any other main antagonist. Kira was an absolutely incredible villain, as was Dio. Kars was okay but enhanced by how compelling Wham and ACDC were, the pillar men as a whole were cool. Diavolo is like if the final boss was Santana.
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Jul 1, 2019 08:07
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Trish rules and she should have been given way more to do.
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Jul 1, 2019 09:31
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Trish is the only important character that is both a woman and not dead as part of a backstory.
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Jul 1, 2019 09:52
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I get that Diavolo's motivations and backstory are pretty cool, but drat... He just isn't fun to watch. He's saved by cartoony rear end in a top hat King Crimson and weird-rear end Doppio. There was an argument that all three are a part of one, so Doppio is still Diavolo, and I agree, in theory. In reality, I'm just not having any fun watching anything Diavolo does. I get more fun from seeing screencaps of weird-rear end faces KC makes. Also I was actually sad when Doppio presumably died, so I still count him as a separate character. Even when DIO was doing nothing, he was still hilarious, and Kira was creepy (and also quite weirdly funny) too. And yeah, Trish could just be replaced by a huge plot-item diamond or whatever for 70% of this part. Ah well, at least her design is cool. Vookatos fucked around with this message at 10:59 on Jul 1, 2019 |
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Jul 1, 2019 10:55
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Dragonatrix posted:Trish is the only important character that is both a woman and not dead as part of a backstory. I wonder if Lisa Lisa is still kicking around
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Jul 1, 2019 11:09
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Alan_Shore posted:Can you like or dislike Trish? She's done nothing, barely a character. She's a prop She’s so wet and useless her own stand had to basically appear to her and be all ‘Come 👏 on. 👏 You’re going to die here unless we do something, and I don’t want that to happen.’ Basically Spice Girl has more drive and character than Trish herself.
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Jul 1, 2019 11:26
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The_Doctor posted:Basically Spice Girl has more drive and character than Trish herself. it runs in the family
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Jul 1, 2019 11:29
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The_Doctor posted:She’s so wet and useless her own stand had to basically appear to her and be all ‘Come 👏 on. 👏 You’re going to die here unless we do something, and I don’t want that to happen.’ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCdwTlSAoeI I wish we got a lot more of that spicy lady
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Jul 1, 2019 11:40
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King Crimson was totally consistent to me when I realized it was just The World but used by a total moron.Dragonatrix posted:Trish is the only important character that is both a woman and not dead as part of a backstory. Holly is still around and the most powerful member of Clan Joestar.
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Jul 1, 2019 11:45
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painted into a coroner posted:You absolutely know that Doppio would have trusted Diavolo 100% but Diavolo would murder the gently caress out of Doppio if it brought him a literal inch closer to the arrow. It's a missed opportunity to have had Diavolo punching his soul's light be what actually killed Doppio
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Jul 1, 2019 13:20
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gnome7 posted:And doing this would make him vulnerable after Chariot Requiem separated Doppio and Diavolo from each other. You'd need to replace the plot beat of Bruno's body getting immediately gunned down so Doppio and Diavolo had a hot minute to try and work together as separate people, but I think that would make for a better setup anyway. There's just so much around the periphery of this Part that I don't think holds up to much of any scrutiny. Diavolo wants to erase himself from history, but then takes a plethora of actions that contradict doing so. Like why did he have Trish in the first place? What need was there for the organization? You could do something about how it makes him very human that he has this innate fear of being "known" but also wants the power that comes with being so strong, but the story does no narrative legwork to make this clear or earned.
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Jul 1, 2019 13:29
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painted into a coroner posted:I think boiling it down exclusively to him being mentally ill is not proper reading of the text. There is more than him just having two different personalities - he has two different souls. His entire appearance changes when he switches from Doppio to Diavolo; he gets taller, his hair changes, he gets buff. You could write it off as pure mental illness and I would agree that it would be hack writing, if not for Silver Chariot Requiem and the soul swapping. That's a real weird thing to say when the fight isn't even that good! I don't mean the Diavolo/Doppio split is mental illness, they're two different souls in the same body, sure fine. What i do mean is Diavolo's monomanical fixation of secrecy and concealing his identity, and then pursuing a goal that directly contradicts that desire seemingly for no other reason than for the sake of doing so is nonsensical and confused to the point where I'd say Diavolo genuinely has brain problems. He seems to derive no pleasure from being the boss, exerts no power for his own gain and continually brings upon himself the one thing he wants to avoid above all others (having people seek out his identity) through his needlessly cruel and exploitative rule, he just seems to have a pathological need to rule even as it brings about his ruin.
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Jul 1, 2019 13:34
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Nate RFB posted:Jesus it's crazy how much more sense this makes, and how they could've structured these final fights around it. I figured he had Trish before he was doing the whole mafia thing, and once he started he went "Oh poo poo, I need to go fix that"
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Jul 1, 2019 13:52
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You do realize people sometimes have children unintentionally right? Often, even.
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Jul 1, 2019 13:55
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multijoe posted:I don't mean the Diavolo/Doppio split is mental illness, they're two different souls in the same body, sure fine. What i do mean is Diavolo's monomanical fixation of secrecy and concealing his identity, and then pursuing a goal that directly contradicts that desire seemingly for no other reason than for the sake of doing so is nonsensical and confused to the point where I'd say Diavolo genuinely has brain problems. He seems to derive no pleasure from being the boss, exerts no power for his own gain and continually brings upon himself the one thing he wants to avoid above all others (having people seek out his identity) through his needlessly cruel and exploitative rule, he just seems to have a pathological need to rule even as it brings about his ruin. Security, and goals, do not have to be pleasurable. We never see Diavolo state that he has any other goal beyond security. Him running the mob and holding social control over parts of Italy is not what he desires, it is only a convenient side effect. Diavolo is not pursuing the arrow to expand Passione outside of Italy, or even to consolidate his power within the nation. You're absolutely not wrong when you say that Diavolo has a "pathological need to rule even as it brings about his ruin" but that's exactly why I find him more complex and a more realistic villain than the likes of DIO and Kars. While all JoJo villains are good, the ones up to this part are almost superhuman in power and personality. Outside of interactions with the main cast that allow them to win the upper hand, they never make mistakes. Diavolo, on the other hand, is a person with ridiculous drive and a powerful stand, but absolute crippling paranoia. There is an aspect of mental illness to the character, yes, and what a lot of people dismiss as poor writing, I look at as consistent writing of intense paranoia. It will never matter how secure the person is, they will never feel like they are. *That* is Diavolo and that is what gives him complexity.
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Jul 1, 2019 14:13
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A couple posts here and there have mentioned something to the effect of Diavolo not really being a person in his own right but more of a malevolent entity that spawned from and latches onto other souls and I find that a much more compelling/interesting read than just "dude hides from the world and uses a split personality as a proxy when interaction with the world is necessary." The way the story has presented him almost never actually being visible on-screen honestly kind of helps that narrative, even. He's almost exclusively been either concealed by shadows, hiding behind Doppio in his own body, or hiding behind Trish in Mista's body. In all cases he speaks only through King Crimson.Nate RFB posted:There's just so much around the periphery of this Part that I don't think holds up to much of any scrutiny. Diavolo wants to erase himself from history, but then takes a plethora of actions that contradict doing so. Like why did he have Trish in the first place? What need was there for the organization? You could do something about how it makes him very human that he has this innate fear of being "known" but also wants the power that comes with being so strong, but the story does no narrative legwork to make this clear or earned. I kind of like that. The entity known as "Diavolo" is something that shouldn't be, and is surrounded by this weird unnatural dissonance in its existence. Everything he does is self-contradictory. He's terrified of someone knowing who he is but his existence as "the boss of Passione" has to be known in order for him to lead this mafia and have all this power. He surrounds himself with Stand users, who tend to have stronger wills than the average person, but he rules them with fear and intimidation. Surely he'd know this would backfire at some point? Apparently having two separate factions of subordinates after his life, in both cases partially for revenge, doesn't seem to gotten it into his head. His claim when confronting Polnareff is that he wants to overcome his past or whatever but by "overcome" he means "run so far away from that he can rest slightly easier in his state of perpetual paranoia." It takes some mental juggling but there are already several parallels to Dio there, so going a bit further with it makes a certain amount of sense. Diavolo and Kira are different interpretations of the concept of a villain being the "opposite" of Dio, someone with a larger than life, supernaturally charismatic presence. The two of them do everything in their power to live in obscurity but go about it in different ways. Kira blends in and does his best to never stand out, living peacefully in plain sight, interacting with people only as much as is necessary to not draw suspicion to him for being a weirdo. Diavolo on the other hand takes over an entire mafia organization and uses it as a series of walls to hide behind, which is the exact opposite tactic and thus draws WAY MORE SUSPICION than Kira ever did. In general I think, for me, the thing that hurts Part 5 the most is Giorno. Not Gold Experience, I don't mind all the handwave-y solutions to battles that come up in all honesty. Giorno's just kind of a wet noodle of a character. Also Fugo and Trish only getting one fight each. gently caress that.
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Jul 1, 2019 14:24
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Part 5 is consistent with part 3 in that the villains have interesting motivations (it’s an interesting shift in Dio’s character that, after being traumatized by his near-death and imprisonment beneath the sea, he returns with a fixation on keeping himself safe. Everything Dio does in part 3 is motivated by fear, with The World being the ultimate manifestation of that.) But we don’t actually spend enough time with the villain to have that characterization become anything more than gestural, something we can presume in broad strokes by reading their actions juxtaposed with the few lines of interior dialogue we get from them. One can contrast this with Kira, who we see in everyday life, in interpersonal interactions, and hear quite a bit from his interior self.
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Jul 1, 2019 14:28
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I feel that Bruno and Mista are doing a lot of heavy lifting for keeping this part great and if they were slightly less cool this whole house of cards would tumble down
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Jul 1, 2019 14:30
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Bruno is a really strong character, tied with Josuke in terms of great Jojo leads.
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Jul 1, 2019 14:32
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I feel like Araki wrote himself in a corner with the sheer size of the main cast, so you end up having Fugo and Trish getting very little, and watching through this I realize Narancia is also super underused. The other parts also have this problem but part 5 feels like the biggest offender.
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Jul 1, 2019 14:48
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Diavolo's methods being self-contradictory is purposeful. It's the kind of character flaw that a good villain needs. Hell, "contradiction" is Diavolo's theme, from him hiding himself in the way that draws the most attention to him, to actually being two separate people, to alienating his personal protection network in order to keep himself protected. The seeds of his misfortune are seeds that he himself planted (hell, Trish is his child), and that's kind of the point of his character.
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Jul 1, 2019 14:51
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Diavolo absolutely takes pleasure from exercising power. Hell, his little poem in the OP is all about it. I think that his name provides the best clue for understanding his motives - he literally wants to become a demon, a faceless, untouchable, all-powerful force of abstract malevolence. He was born with one foot in the supernatural and he wants to go all the way, even splitting his own already-fractured soul apart (Polnareff's take on MPD fits perfectly with the idea that Doppio budded off from him as a defence mechanism) to distance himself from his own lingering humanity.
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Jul 1, 2019 15:14
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Glagha posted:You do realize people sometimes have children unintentionally right? Often, even.
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Jul 1, 2019 15:16
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Did Davidpro add any additional foreshadowing for Chariot Requiem’s shadow trick? I totally forgot to keep any eye out for it.Anonymous Robot posted:Manga readers, is Stone Ocean as ludicrous, dream logic-y and deus-ex-machina filled as Golden Wind? I’m really not feeling this part and may check out on the series if this is the way of things from 5 on. JoJo’s Adventure will never get less Bizarre but Stone Ocean has a much better protagonist than Giorno with a much cooler and more consistent Stand than Golden Experience
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Jul 1, 2019 15:17
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Anonymous Robot posted:Part 5 is consistent with part 3 in that the villains have interesting motivations (it’s an interesting shift in Dio’s character that, after being traumatized by his near-death and imprisonment beneath the sea, he returns with a fixation on keeping himself safe. Everything Dio does in part 3 is motivated by fear, with The World being the ultimate manifestation of that.) But we don’t actually spend enough time with the villain to have that characterization become anything more than gestural, something we can presume in broad strokes by reading their actions juxtaposed with the few lines of interior dialogue we get from them. Dio's "fear" in part 3 is only due to his control of Jonathan's body being incomplete. He knows he isn't at his full strength and so he hides behind his minions, but is willing to face Joseph's group once they arrive. Contrast that to his behavior once he absorbs Joseph's blood and "completes" his regeneration/body control, he goes absolutely apeshit with power and confidence. He's not afraid of anything at that point except a direct punch to the head by Star Platinum, which is less "fear" and more "not being a loving idiot" because I'd probably do my best to avoid that too no matter how much of a badass I think I am. Diavolo's fear is constant and self-inflicted. He's never shown at anything less than full strength. He has no reason to fear any individual member of Bruno's group in combat. He fears them because nearly all of them have methods of locating him (Aerosmith's CO2 radar, Trish's ability to sense him, Moody Blues in general, Giorno apparently having the ability to "sense life") and he's such a coward despite his strength he doesn't want to fight them until he literally absolutely cannot do anything else.
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Jul 1, 2019 15:42
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I didn't like Diavolo much when I read the manga, but having read it and gaining perspective (due to knowing how he ends up and his actual point) with the watch of the anime made him jump ahead a great deal for me. On first read, I saw this Doppio dude, and King Crimson talking, and Diavolo in a body, interacting like twice, so I thought of Diavolo solo as kind of a non-entity as opposed to reading them all together. Now I see it as, whenever Diavolo comes out in full, its just his guises being cornered and him being forced to show himself. Same for the Requiem Stand making a lot more sense seeing it again and realizing it's just granting the wish of a strong will just like a Stand is a manifestation of a strong will. I can't stand the next part's villain to the point of them being my least favorite except whoever 8's is, maybe, so maybe the same will happen there.
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Jul 1, 2019 15:54
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I feel like 'cowardice' isn't the exact word for what Diavolo's deal is. It seems to be more of a genuine, deep-seated fear and disgust of being human, with the attendant human frailties, when he could be a true demon instead. Maybe he's right that he's not supposed to be human, maybe he's just crazy, but that seems to be the root of it.
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Jul 1, 2019 16:24
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Funky Valentine posted:Holly is still around and the most powerful member of Clan Joestar. I'm disappointed DP didn't add some filler mentions of Holly in DiU. Maybe just a quick snippet of him talking to her on the phone or something. overmind2000 posted:It's a missed opportunity to have had Diavolo punching his soul's light be what actually killed Doppio Agreed. Anonymous Robot posted:it’s an interesting shift in Dio’s character that, after being traumatized by his near-death and imprisonment beneath the sea, he returns with a fixation on keeping himself safe. In the desert, no less. painted into a coroner posted:Outside of interactions with the main cast that allow them to win the upper hand, they never make mistakes. Diavolo, on the other hand, is a person with ridiculous drive and a powerful stand, but absolute crippling paranoia. There is an aspect of mental illness to the character, yes, and what a lot of people dismiss as poor writing, I look at as consistent writing of intense paranoia. It will never matter how secure the person is, they will never feel like they are. *That* is Diavolo and that is what gives him complexity. Kira makes mistakes near constantly from the moment he first comes onscreen, though. Though, I will say your point on Diavolo is well-made. Blueberry Pancakes fucked around with this message at 17:21 on Jul 1, 2019 |
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Jul 1, 2019 17:13
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Alan_Shore posted:Can you like or dislike Trish? She's done nothing, barely a character. She's a prop The narrative arc in the Trish parts goes: 1) Her life being uprooted and put in danger on account of her father. 2) Bucciarati's gang protecting her from danger as they take her to her father. 3) Her coming to better understand the gang, and Bucciarati in particular taking a liking to her. 4) Her father trying to kill her, and Bucciarati and most of his gang betraying the boss to keep Trish safe/reform the mafia. 5) Trish coming into her own, now protecting the gang (instead of the other way around) with her Spice Girl. 6) Bucciarati slowly succumbing as he reveals he holds paternal feelings toward Trish. So, the obvious conclusion of the arc is that: 7) Her birth father and adopted father dying in battle, leaving Trish to become the new, wiser and self-confident, mafia boss. Trish ain't a prop, and in fact has one of the most well developed character arcs in the part. It's just that the story doesn't follow through.
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Jul 1, 2019 17:23
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That assumes Trish has any reason to want anything to do with the mafia, though. Going off to live a perfectly normal life with no connection to organised crime (beyond occasionally keeping in touch with her friends from Bucciarati's team) would also be a win for her.
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Jul 1, 2019 17:39
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Fugo only got one fight because a) his original plot to be the traitor got axed and b) his power loving sucks to wright fights around, the Avdol Dilemma.
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Jul 1, 2019 21:04
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I like Trish because she has a lot of potential as a charater and as a Stand user, and I keep waiting for her to do stuff cause every time she does it's awesome.
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Jul 1, 2019 21:20
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