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Bob le Moche posted:Wow are you saying that I'm, in fact, the "Real Fascist"? That's a new one I've never heard that one before, especially not from people on the same side of an issue as Steve Bannon or the CIA Steve Banon and the CIA have told me they like china, they think it's good as hell.
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Aug 29, 2019 05:18
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Anyway, I've heard Bob Le Moche agrees with the CIA and Steve Bannon, makes me respect him a lot less.
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Aug 29, 2019 05:19
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Herstory Begins Now posted:genociding central america was something other than imperialism, that's good to know Things can be bad and genocide and colonization without being Imperialism, it doesn't make them any less bad. Something being Imperialism also doesn't make it worse than those things, it just makes it Imperialism. Hope this helps. Edit: Plastic_Gargoyle posted:Do you have a basis for this assertion that is not "Because Lenin was like, really smart" Bob le Moche fucked around with this message at 05:43 on Aug 29, 2019 |
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Aug 29, 2019 05:24
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go back to the VZ thread bob.
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Aug 29, 2019 05:38
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Grapplejack posted:go back to the VZ thread bob. Hasn't that thread suffered enough?
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Aug 29, 2019 05:42
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Bob le Moche posted:Things can be bad and genocide and colonization without being Imperialism, it doesn't make them any less bad. Something being Imperialism also doesn't make it worse than those things, it just makes it Imperialism. Hope this helps. I cannot fathom what definition of imperialism that is useful excludes the colonization of the Americas.
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Aug 29, 2019 05:53
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Lightning Knight posted:I cannot fathom what definition of imperialism that is useful excludes the colonization of the Americas. The one that makes my side correct while they do it, obviously. e: Honestly it is kind of funny because he's confusing colonialism with imperialism, even though he said he wasn't doing that. Colonialism is specifically what he's referring to when he mentions it being a part of capitalism, but imperialism as a whole encompasses that + other things. Rome was an imperial state, as was the ottoman empire that eventually replaced it. Most of the Chinese dynasties were imperialist. etc. Grapplejack fucked around with this message at 06:14 on Aug 29, 2019 |
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Aug 29, 2019 05:54
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Lenin's theory of imperialism is meant to understand modern imperialism under capitalism. It is NOT meant to be the one and only understanding of imperialism. They're many theories of imperialism out there, and Lenin even used some of them in his reaserch when writing his book. In fact here's a direct quote from Lenin himself: "Colonial policy and imperialism existed before the latest stage of capitalism, and even before capitalism. Rome, founded on slavery, pursued a colonial policy and practiced imperialism." - - Lenin, Imperialism, the Highest Stage of Capitalism, BrokenGameboy fucked around with this message at 06:33 on Aug 29, 2019 |
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Aug 29, 2019 06:12
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Bob le Moche posted:I've been getting beaten up by cops and arrested for protesting for years now. I've had loaded handguns pointed at me and close comrades lose their eyes, limbs, and get brain injuries at the hands of the police. I'm googling around trying to find the G8 protester who got his arm cut off by a police buzzsaw mech but haven't had any luck. BrokenGameboy posted:"Colonial policy and imperialism existed before the latest stage of capitalism, and even before capitalism. Rome, founded on slavery, pursued a colonial policy and practiced imperialism." - - Lenin, Imperialism, the Highest Stage of Capitalism, Wowee. Tally up yet another couple of tankies who don't even know their leftist theory.
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Aug 29, 2019 06:38
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DOCTOR ZIMBARDO posted:Only when we finally get to have White History Month, teacup This is an insane take
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Aug 29, 2019 06:44
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Bloodnose posted:I'm googling around trying to find the G8 protester who got his arm cut off by a police buzzsaw mech but haven't had any luck. This is silly, cops will run over protestors and that can absolutely result in lost limbs. ACAB is the universal truth, gently caress the police.
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Aug 29, 2019 06:59
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So a lethal shot was fired by an hk cop a couple days ago, i felt this was a turn for the worst. Is there an updated list of demands the protestors are making or is it still the riot word mainly?
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Aug 29, 2019 07:01
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It was a shot into the air not towards protesters, and the list of demands remain the same. There are violent protest days, correctly attributed as a riot since these extremists throw molotovs at cops and CCP love to promote this poo poo with focus on individual protesters carrying airsoft RPGs and pistols, and there are non-violent days like yesterday's #ProtestToo movement which was held in support of a female protester who was forced to a strip search and another who was publicly stripped during an arrest. But yeah carry on discussing how ethnic cleansing is just violence and not imperialism.
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Aug 29, 2019 08:04
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Lightning Knight posted:This is silly, cops will run over protestors and that can absolutely result in lost limbs. Here in America they just shoot you 30 times front and back, they don't bother with Mad Max bladecar attacks. I guess the bastardness of the cops takes different forms around the world.
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Aug 29, 2019 09:38
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Oh well, I’m relocating from HK to Brazil for work, I’m sure the police there are much better. (*looks at LatAm thread*) oh.
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Aug 29, 2019 09:42
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sincx posted:Prepared to have your phone and laptop searched going into and out of HK at land borders, especially if you are a young male. If you're going to HK for a day trip from Guangzhou, consider bringing a burner phone. I didn’t have my phone searched when I crossed through the Shenzhen border back in 2014, but I was there a few months before the Occupy Central protests started. This time, it is very possible that protests will still be ongoing when I arrive in the city. Thanks for the advice. I’ll bring an old erased smartphone with me just in case.
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Aug 29, 2019 09:56
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Bob le Moche posted:You have no idea what you're talking about so please kindly spare me baseless comments like this one. Ah bloo bloo spare me the sob story mr. hero activist. Your attitude here and elsewhere shows you’d do just fine on the other side of the teargas.
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Aug 29, 2019 10:04
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Lightning Knight posted:I cannot fathom what definition of imperialism that is useful excludes the colonization of the Americas. There isn't one.
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Aug 29, 2019 10:08
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What conquistador did in Latin America was worse than Imperialism. Why would you want to call it imperialism? I am sorry no more imperialism chat from me.
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Aug 29, 2019 10:18
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:There isn't one. eh one can make a coherent and useful description and argument about imperialism specifically in its modern form which doesn't care much about the colonisation of america or manifest destiny or what have you in such cases it's useful to define one's terms, but lenin does do that in his own way. it is reasonable to distinguish roman conquest from the age of sails colonies from the scramble for africa - it is legitimate to make theories of imperialism particular to any of these events. what lenin tries to do is to make a theory of the imperialism of the fin-de-siecle period, which is in large part still valid because capitalism hasn't really changed that much. it might be more fruitful to discuss more modern theories like rokkan's doctrine of center-periphery etc, but that doesn't make lenin wrong as such
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Aug 29, 2019 10:39
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though honestly at this point china is an empire unto and within itself, re its actions in the arctic, africa and in its own periphery
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Aug 29, 2019 10:42
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Who was asking about the “statute of limitations on whining” about the 100 years of humiliation? https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-08-29/trump-s-new-trade-war-weapon-might-just-be-antique-china-debt
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Aug 29, 2019 13:46
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The reason Lenin called monopoly capitalism of the 1910s "the highest stage of capitalism" is because he believed a worldwide socialist revolution was just around the corner. That didn't happen and since then capitalism has changed and developed a lot. And the reason why we have so many Marxist-leninists going around saying imperialism doesn't exist even when talking about situations that look like re-enactments of manifest destiny or the founding of the East India Companies is because they didn't read the book very closely. Lenin was very vocal that the Russia of the Tsars was an Imperial power equivalent to Britain despite its economy being dominated by foreign capitalist firms, even the preface laments that he couldn't put more Russian examples in it because the censor would ban it. Unfortunately he was fairly sloppy in his writing. Parts of the pamphlet he acknowledges that Imperialism pre-dates the period he's covering 1870s-1916 and that this is just another modified form of Imperialism he's describing. But most of the time he does write like Imperialism is a phenomena of his own discovery that is unique to 1878-1916. Its also dated quite poorly since much of it was about the role of capital in the establishment of colonies and they don't really exist anymore.
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Aug 29, 2019 13:56
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DOCTOR ZIMBARDO posted:Who was asking about the “statute of limitations on whining” about the 100 years of humiliation? Also, while China hasn't been colonized for as long or as extensively, this kind of talking point is absolutely used against post-colonial countries in South Asia and Africa as well. Spoiler: the effects of colonialism take more than 50 years to fix.
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Aug 29, 2019 14:03
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Baka-nin posted:The reason Lenin called monopoly capitalism of the 1910s "the highest stage of capitalism" is because he believed a worldwide socialist revolution was just around the corner. That didn't happen and since then capitalism has changed and developed a lot. And the reason why we have so many Marxist-leninists going around saying imperialism doesn't exist even when talking about situations that look like re-enactments of manifest destiny or the founding of the East India Companies is because they didn't read the book very closely. eh. i feel as though lenin's basic thesis - that modern imperialism is basically a capitalist project - is very reasonable, and his account of the forces involved holds up reasonably well today, i think. global financial capitalism and neocolonialism isn't actually that different to how it was back in the day, structurally speaking. the idea of hyperexploitation and worker's aristocracies in particular are perfectly cogent in today's global capitalist society. lenin's big innovation in that text is to study the intersection between state power in a captive periphery and capitalism, and it's hard for me to agree that the dynamics that are reigning there have fundamentally changed
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Aug 29, 2019 14:04
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V. Illych L. posted:eh. i feel as though lenin's basic thesis - that modern imperialism is basically a capitalist project - is very reasonable, and his account of the forces involved holds up reasonably well today, i think. global financial capitalism and neocolonialism isn't actually that different to how it was back in the day, structurally speaking. the idea of hyperexploitation and worker's aristocracies in particular are perfectly cogent in today's global capitalist society. There was over a century of capitalist imperialism before the period he's talking about. He was specifically arguing that the economic developments of the late nineteenth century had changed Imperialism and that this was the final stage of both because the tensions this generated would lead pretty quickly to the victory of socialism. Since that point in time the level of monopoly centralisation has gone up and down without appreciable changes in the world power structure. The colonial empires didn't fall because they passed new social democratic economic measures or anti Trust laws, but because they no longer had the military muscle to keep their subjects at bay. Nations can rise out of the periphery without colonies like Japan and South Korea and fall into it without experiencing the fate of colonies from say 1890. You say you don't think the dynamics have changed, but as someone from a former colony that's now independent it absolutely has changed, the power dynamics are not comparable at all. We don't have situations were an entire economy of one territory is built for the exclusive benefit of the dominant outside power, everywhere has a larger and more developed national and even state capitalist class and a lot more political and economic autonomy. The only exceptions are states that have collapsed or the few remaining colonial projects like Western Sahara.
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Aug 29, 2019 14:33
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i will get back to this in more detail, but i feel you're being a bit uncharitable to my namesake here the idea is that hyperexploitation gets pushed to the periphery and that this releases pressure in the centre. the modern pattern of massive industrialisation and proletarisation of that periphery seems to be congruent with this basic thesis - as does the relative deproletarisation of the 'west'. lenin's specific thesis about imminent world revolution did turn out to be wrong, but i'd argue that this is lenin underestimating the flexibility of capitalist production rather than him getting the structures wrong. the empires don't fall because of domestic welfare spending, according to lenin; domestic welfare spending falls because the empires collapse
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Aug 29, 2019 14:44
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V. Illych L. posted:i will get back to this in more detail, but i feel you're being a bit uncharitable to my namesake here On hyper exploitation, the problem is the period Lenin is talking about 1870s-1916 had peak industrial development in the centres, which Lenin backed up with a lot of economic data from several countries. The declines in industrial centres in Europe and North America largely started in the 70s and 80s which was after most of the old colonies had broken free. Jobs aren't just going to what some call neo-colonies but independent and in some cases rising powers with an ambivalent attitude to the old powers. In many cases it looks like the main beneficiaries of this `easing of pressure` aren't the periphery at all but other nations in the centre. Domestic welfare spending also went up significantly in Western Europe during and after the Imperial collapse. I don't recall Lenin saying that either, and I have a hard time believing he thought Victorian Britain and Tsarist Russia were big believers in social services.
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Aug 29, 2019 15:02
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[bad posts]
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Aug 29, 2019 15:14
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Kassad posted:Also, while China hasn't been colonized for as long or as extensively, this kind of talking point is absolutely used against post-colonial countries in South Asia and Africa as well. Spoiler: the effects of colonialism take more than 50 years to fix. Good thing I was talking about China and not those countries at all! Spoiler: I also admitted that China still does feel the effects of colonialism, it’s just really hard to feel sorry for them when they are doing a lot of the same poo poo now to others and people defend it based on what some English cunts did ages ago
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Aug 29, 2019 15:20
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Baka-nin posted:Domestic welfare spending also went up significantly in Western Europe during and after the Imperial collapse. I don't recall Lenin saying that either, and I have a hard time believing he thought Victorian Britain and Tsarist Russia were big believers in social services.
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Aug 29, 2019 15:22
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Grapplejack posted:go back to the VZ thread bob. Noooooooo. STDH.txt thread though...
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Aug 29, 2019 15:44
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Reuters posted:HONG KONG (Reuters) - China brought fresh troops into Hong Kong on Thursday in what it described as a routine rotation of the garrison, days before protesters planned to hold a march calling for full democracy for the Chinese-ruled city after three months of demonstrations. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...h-idUSKCN1VJ06B I can't but wonder how long this will last.
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Aug 29, 2019 15:49
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Plastic_Gargoyle posted:https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...h-idUSKCN1VJ06B It will last until some time after Oct 1, and after Beijing realize KMT has no chance in Taiwanese election.
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Aug 29, 2019 15:58
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https://twitter.com/aivaras_aivaras/status/1167041585902694402
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Aug 29, 2019 16:50
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DOCTOR ZIMBARDO posted:This is a seriously misguided bit of ultraleftism. As Che explained at length, genuine democracy - including, I would argue, police or prison abolition - is not possible for nations facing imperialism, as they’ll simply be immediately attacked by imperialists through terrorism, mass criminality, unrest, etc. This sort of criticism is without merit and is the provenance of leftists who are afraid to get their hands dirty or bad faith chauvinists. Of course many people are usually able to suss our false claims of “authoritarianism” or “totalitarianism” when discussing the historical USSR but become a lot more myopic when nonwhite countries are facing those kinds of criticisms today.
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Aug 29, 2019 17:21
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Baka-nin posted:On hyper exploitation, the problem is the period Lenin is talking about 1870s-1916 had peak industrial development in the centres, which Lenin backed up with a lot of economic data from several countries. The declines in industrial centres in Europe and North America largely started in the 70s and 80s which was after most of the old colonies had broken free. Jobs aren't just going to what some call neo-colonies but independent and in some cases rising powers with an ambivalent attitude to the old powers. In many cases it looks like the main beneficiaries of this `easing of pressure` aren't the periphery at all but other nations in the centre. well no, lenin thought that capitalism was finished with WW1, i absolutely agree that he was mistaken in that. look, if you interpret the text as narrowly as you are in this post, you're naturally right. lenin makes predictions which we know don't come true. however, i think it is fruitful to consider the implicit, underlying model that lenin is basing these predictions upon, because i think that's an interesting one and basically correct. i might also have formulated my point about the proletarisation of the periphery somewhat obscurely, but it is this: lenin's basic thesis is that exploitation is exported to the periphery, and enforced by geopolitical power to maintain stability in the centre. he justifies this by a bunch of examples. since the centre at this time has the proletariat as the mass group with the highest standard of living, he focusses on the labour aristocracy in european factories, which are relatively well compensated by the use of super-profits from colonial exploitation - i.e. the centre subsidises its workers, allowing the centres of capitalism to buy stability at home. this leads to ever-increasing monopolisation, which leads to conflict etc. etc. i talk about the welfare state because that's the form it typically takes today; at any rate, lenin was intimately familiar with bernsteinite reformism, and will almost certainly have had it in mind when writing this text. where lenin is wrong in this thesis is that capital has shown a remarkable ability to make tactical retreats. so, as resource extraction and slave-colonies become untenable, capital seeks to invest in higher returns in other countries, leading to industrial development in the old colonies, etc. however, the dynamic of exploitation remains! in the west, the proletariat has basically been displaced entirely as a class. it still exists as a sort of rump, but it's very fragmented and its ability to meaningfully coordinate, let alone threaten to seize the means of production is completely hollowed out. rather, the old periphery (which for the most part remains periphery in this context) has emerged as the places where people make stuff in giant factories, propped up by international business regulations and a more-or-less compliant local managerial class rather than outright colonial firepower. these then displace the most crushing exploitation unto various undocumented or indigenous people, basically casual workers and people who haven't the potential for power that an actual mass proletariat has. exploitation in chinese factories is still much too intense for domestic western sensibilities; the stuff they do in their own peripheries is exceedingly grim. my feeling is that you read lenin like some people read freud - yeah, the guy got a lot of things wrong, but he also got some very important things right. he anticipated the basic mechanisms of globalisation, and his account of imperialism is IMO still useful for informing assessments of consumer culture. in casual conversation i would use completely different terms and metaphors, but i still got some insights from Imperialism which i very much appreciated and which continue to inform my thinking
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Aug 29, 2019 18:11
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Beefeater1980 posted:Oh well, I’m relocating from HK to Brazil for work, I’m sure the police there are much better. Brazil is a capitalist country run by a fascist, so the cops there are bad, unlike in Hong Kong where they are good,
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Aug 29, 2019 18:21
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I'm not an expert, but I wonder if looking at things from a Luxembourgist perspective would be helpful. For instance, China - - and I bet eventually other countries - - investment and market expansion into Africa is part of capital's need to expand into new markets. If it holds true, then I don't know what places are left for expansion into after Africa.
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Aug 29, 2019 18:22
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GreyjoyBastard posted:Brazil is a capitalist country run by a fascist, so the cops there are bad, unlike in Hong Kong where they are good, Let me guess, you were also unconditionally supporting the anti-Lula protests in Brazil and accusing anyone who tried to warn you about the eventual outcome of being a "tankie"? Because all protest movements are automatically good regardless of class composition, who supports them, or of what the actual outcome is, right?
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Aug 29, 2019 18:29
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