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Even if it doesn't the tide of need can't be stopped, there will be new, angrier, more ardent people to replace the old and poo poo. You were just unfortunate enough to get stuck in the tail end of a rotten order.
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Sep 22, 2019 02:12
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OwlFancier posted:Even if it doesn't the tide of need can't be stopped, there will be new, angrier, more ardent people to replace the old and poo poo. You were just unfortunate enough to get stuck in the tail end of a rotten order. I have a feeling the angry replacement that's coming will not be the socialism you imagine my friend, but hope springs eternal.
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Sep 22, 2019 02:23
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I don't find it productive to assume it is doomed to be something I dislike. Despair is like masturbating only less fun.
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Sep 22, 2019 02:28
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OwlFancier posted:I don't find it productive to assume it is doomed to be something I dislike. Despair is like masturbating only less fun. I think we're in a better spot now that Labour is a leftist party (or messaging left or whatever), current brexit doomsday aside. Voting for milliband felt an awful lot like that picture of him eating the bacon sandwhich. I can recognise positive things as well.
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Sep 22, 2019 02:31
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uvar posted:I'm piping up to also say that the podcast is good. I left the UK as as a kid when my family emigrated, and didn't even know what DWP stood for, though I'm familiar with the concept since we have something similar that's heading that way. I've only really started paying attention to politics in any detail fairly recently, let alone UK politics, and I don't get lots of the jokes in the podcast or lurking this thread (miwk? melt? "Miwk" is a meme among online UK leftists that comes from a speech that Mike Gapes, a poo poo MP who quit the Labour party earlier this year, gave to Parliament about the dairy industry in Ireland. "Melt" is a derisory term for people who adhere to centrist neoliberalism. They won't take a firm ideological position on any issues and are increasingly unpopular so their position is described as "melting".
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Sep 22, 2019 02:57
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I'll figure them out eventually), ...
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I just want a reasonably sustainable and enjoyable quality of life. Socialism memes promise that but at this point I'd be willing to travel less altruistic paths if they also worked for me individually. Judging by the popularity of all kinds of "anger" in this regard I get the feeling I'm not the first to feel this way.
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Sep 22, 2019 03:39
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Guavanaut posted:I hope they'll allow me to be boltgunned and stuck if that ever happens. I’ve already got holes in my brain from searching for scorching hot takes for the podcast Captain Fargle posted:"Miwk" is a meme among online UK leftists that comes from a speech that Mike Gapes, a poo poo MP who quit the Labour party earlier this year, gave to Parliament about the dairy industry in Ireland. https://youtu.be/M7yoLarLDMk
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Sep 22, 2019 03:39
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uvar posted:miwk? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EN73IokPmiY This man's ramblings are the stuff of legend. E: oops I linked the cherries one originally not the milk one. Azza Bamboo fucked around with this message at 03:44 on Sep 22, 2019 |
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Sep 22, 2019 03:41
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This is my favourite Miwk Gapes vid: https://twitter.com/reel_politcast/status/1097620614347673602?lang=en
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Sep 22, 2019 04:11
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OwlFancier posted:I don't find it productive to assume it is doomed to be something I dislike. Despair is like masturbating only less fun. There is a difference between helpful optimism and harmful delusion. It come when the optimism interferes with making necessary changes to the pattern of behaviour that is going to lead to the doom. Corbyn has it in his power to win the next election; or at least lose creditably. Doing so would very likely be easier than holding on to power within the party in the face of the kind of catastrophic defeat.all signs say he is headed for. Stopping Brexit is not more important than ending austerity. But actually doing so, rather than being on the right side of a losing battle, requires winning an election. Which requires a Brexit policy which can be explained and campaigned on.
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Sep 22, 2019 05:04
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Sanitary Naptime posted:I’ve already got holes in my brain from searching for scorching hot takes for the podcast The danger of milkscegenation must be made known.
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Sep 22, 2019 05:11
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The current one is not difficult to understand, but I dispute that there is much you can do if people do not want to understand it. If people want to just scream pointlessly through the medium of voting for the pointless screaming parties when a perfectly good alternative is available then unfortunately you just have a poo poo public, because you have a poo poo press and poo poo government and poo poo society which have succeeded in producing a poo poo public.
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Sep 22, 2019 05:12
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Q: What is Labour's Brexit policy? A: Second referendum between Labour deal and remain Q: What would a Labour deal involve? A: Customs Union, Single Market access, guarantees of workers rights Owwww my brain, so complicated
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Sep 22, 2019 05:20
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Exactly, the only thing I couldn't tell you an official line on is whether a labour government would campaign for its deal or make a free vote, though I would suggest a free vote would be the only practical option. It's really not complicated at all. And I also think it's the only option that makes any loving sense in terms of long term efforts to resolve the problems that caused brexit in the first place whether you're leave or remain, the libs are just gonna put loving farage in office at this rate being so utterly uninterested in the causes of brexit, and the tories have absolutely no plan whatsoever to do anything. Neither party actually has any loving plan to enact the position they're trying to sell to the public. Only labour does.
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Sep 22, 2019 05:24
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Good morning Albion
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Sep 22, 2019 06:40
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Genuinely dreading trying to talk to people about it since the Lib Dems said "gently caress it, remain no matter what" because I know some parents that I have who are really down on Corbyn and probably won't give a poo poo that he's literally adopted the position they wanted now that the Orange Tories have moved further because all they have is Brexit opposition. Mom explicitly said that because it affects everything else "Brexit is the only issue" that currently matters, and like, I get it, it's a foremost concern that will gently caress everything else somewhat, but it's not like nothing else matters or that a Labour Brexit would be indistinguishable from a Tory one. Wild to me that when Jezza plays an absolute blinder and completely flattens Johnson it's all wavering and never enough proof of his true intentions, but things that go wrong even out of his hands are never forgotten and are proof positive of his secret lust for turboBrexit.
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Sep 22, 2019 06:46
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jabby posted:Personally I flit between thinking it must be some type of four-dimensional chess that will propel Labour to victory and despairing that it's just not what we were promised when we voted for Corbyn. This was where I got to nine months ago. I think the leadership is so fragmented that they’ve become largely responsive and hope that the government screw things up just enough that they look competent in comparison, but they haven’t done themselves any favours. Tarnop posted:Q: What is Labour's Brexit policy? Except that again demonstrates the same sort of misunderstandings about the EU that are endemic in the Conservative Party. Single market access is a term that means nothing, particularly if you’re also saying you’re ending free movement. In which case single market access is fundamentally limited and you’re looking at hoping to get a free trade deal like Canada (which could take decades) or being in a position like Turkey and the Customs Union, which isn’t great. So Labour will be trying to get a deal which supposedly goes against its own red lines, and then will put a deal to people that they probably won’t like more than May’s, but refusing to commit to whether they’re going to campaign for a deal that doesn’t do what they’re claiming it will, or campaign against a deal they themselves made (hi Dominic Raab), at which point people ask why the gently caress they did it in the first place. It can be boiled down to some talking points, but that actual technicalities are where the entire thing falls to bits.
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Sep 22, 2019 06:48
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PODCASTPOST Hi friends! This coming week we're looking to get a deep dive on climate change banked for whenever SNap has the space to get it edited. If you'd like to get involved then please jump on the discord - particularly if you have experience with either the impact of climate change or climate activism! We'd love to chat to you  Also everyone stop doing the blackpill thing already ffs
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Sep 22, 2019 06:50
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Repealing Article 50 without a second referendum will be an incredibly dangerous move.
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Sep 22, 2019 06:54
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Chuka Umana posted:Repealing Article 50 without a second referendum will be an incredibly dangerous move. I’m definitely not suggesting that, more thinking that a referendum on ‘stay versus this deal that we made that we’re not quite sure about’ isn’t a great set-up and if you think the AV referendum ads were bad, the ones about the Labour position would be brutal.
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Sep 22, 2019 06:56
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I know, I know, polls don't matter, but Jesus it'd be nice to see some trending *towards* Labour for a change. It does grind on me...
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Sep 22, 2019 07:11
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Pesmerga posted:Except that again demonstrates the same sort of misunderstandings about the EU that are endemic in the Conservative Party. Single market access is a term that means nothing, particularly if you’re also saying you’re ending free movement. In which case single market access is fundamentally limited and you’re looking at hoping to get a free trade deal like Canada (which could take decades) or being in a position like Turkey and the Customs Union, which isn’t great. So Labour will be trying to get a deal which supposedly goes against its own red lines, and then will put a deal to people that they probably won’t like more than May’s, but refusing to commit to whether they’re going to campaign for a deal that doesn’t do what they’re claiming it will, or campaign against a deal they themselves made (hi Dominic Raab), at which point people ask why the gently caress they did it in the first place. It can be boiled down to some talking points, but that actual technicalities are where the entire thing falls to bits. You're overcomplicating the thinking (which is naturally a bit handwavey on the details because it's all speculative right now):
Labour has, from the beginning, outlined their idea of an acceptable brexit and what they'd aim for in negotiations - ending free movement was never a red line (well it was one of May's) and it's always been made clear that the EU would not grant the other stuff without it, so you may as well assume it would be included if Labour got the deal they wanted Would they get that deal though? Who knows, in the end they might have to offer the Withdrawal Agreement the EU negotiated - so it doesn't really make sense at this point to say what they're going to campaign on in a referendum. Doing that would make it seem like they're not acting in good faith, and that's been the basis for Labour's brexit messaging for the last 3 years (notice the Tory attack line is always to claim Labour wants to negotiate a deal and then campaign against it)
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Sep 22, 2019 07:20
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Unpasteurized milk is like lead utensils. Just because there were still humans left afterwards doesn't mean it was good by any means. Back in ye olden days people had to take any calories they could get to have the strength to not die before 40 or whatever and so milk served the purpose. As did bark bread, Thames water and British cuisine. But we have advanced to a point where you don't have to pay with a slice of your lifespan for every meal you eat to live through the day.
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Sep 22, 2019 07:21
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Pasteur's wager
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Sep 22, 2019 07:26
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Pesmerga posted:I’m definitely not suggesting that, more thinking that a referendum on ‘stay versus this deal that we made that we’re not quite sure about’ isn’t a great set-up and if you think the AV referendum ads were bad, the ones about the Labour position would be brutal. So what are you suggesting, exactly? That MPs, or the party as a whole, should commit to a campaign position on a deal that doesn't exist? What if the deal turns out better or worse than expected? No backsies? Because surely the principled position is to acknowledge that the best deal the EU will give us might be worse than we hope for, and MPs should be allowed to campaign based on the best outcome for their constituents.
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Sep 22, 2019 07:39
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Guardian thinks the supreme Court won't find in favor of the govt. Given hope is a lie I'm taking this to mean the poster earlier in this thread will be right in that they'll say the prorogation was bad, don't do it again, but this time they won't require that it is revoked.
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Sep 22, 2019 07:47
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We drink unpasteurized milk several times a year since my fiances sisters husband is a dairy farmer. We think it's pretty safe for us to drink it, since it comes straight from their own farm and out of a coolant tank and they have modern hygienic facilities. It also tastes different (not mangy as someone said) but that's because the fat content of said milk is higher than even whole milk which is usually set at 3.5% in Finland. Still there is nothing "better" about it, it's just more risky, especially when you add transport and handling to deliver the product into stores for the masses. And while that risk is vanishingly small for us and the people who have their own cows, on a national scale it will definitely lead to misstakes and problems. It's simply not a mass marketable product for modern urban society. It was a product for a smaller scale rural society in which people had cows on their own farms and the milk was drunk fresh or turned into butter or cultured products.
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Sep 22, 2019 07:47
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Tarnop posted:So what are you suggesting, exactly? That MPs, or the party as a whole, should commit to a campaign position on a deal that doesn't exist? What if the deal turns out better or worse than expected? No backsies? Because surely the principled position is to acknowledge that the best deal the EU will give us might be worse than we hope for, and MPs should be allowed to campaign based on the best outcome for their constituents. I’d say given time frames and everything else, a campaign of ‘remain on current terms v EEA and customs union v no deal’ would be better, and can be campaigned on with a clearer position, avoiding the manoeuvring around a deal that is everything to everyone and continually coming unglued the second someone starts digging into it. Look at how much difficulty every Labour MP interviewed about it is having in articulating the position and how it would work. Whatever deal that the Labour government is likely to pull out that includes the ‘ending free movement’ aspect that was in the leaked Labour position is going to run into exactly the same problems as May’s deal, and if Labour wants to negotiate anything that isn’t literally back of the envelope stuff, they need years. Otherwise it’s a variant of May’s deal, in which case they can then be attacked with ‘voted against May’s deal to have their own May’s deal while everything burned down around us and they (indirectly) put Johnson in power too’.
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Sep 22, 2019 08:19
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Awake nice'n'early on a Sunday, not sure whether to watch the Marr show or Ireland-Scotland in the RWC. Both have huge potential to piss me off for the rest of the day
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Sep 22, 2019 08:37
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Pesmerga posted:I’d say given time frames and everything else, a campaign of ‘remain on current terms v EEA and customs union v no deal’ would be better Putting no deal on any referendum ballot is a grade A stupid move
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Sep 22, 2019 08:39
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Rarity posted:Putting no deal on any referendum ballot is a grade A stupid move Agreed, just seems somehow less bad. My preferred option would be remain v EEA, which is at least a preexisting and clear alternative.
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Sep 22, 2019 08:42
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Pesmerga posted:Agreed, just seems somehow less bad. My preferred option would be remain v EEA, which is at least a preexisting and clear alternative. Putting two leave options vs. one remain on the referendum also leaves you open to accusations of attempting to split the leave vote.
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Sep 22, 2019 08:49
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Andrew Rawnsley is a used-car-salesman looking shy tory. Despite the threads opinions on appearance versus ideology I feel that this should be known as he fails to be of merit in both categories.
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Sep 22, 2019 08:51
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Rarity posted:Putting no deal on any referendum ballot is a grade A stupid move Which is why the Lib Dems said they'd do it. Remember: the Liberal Democrats do not oppose Brexit, not even No Deal Brexit. They just need to be seen opposing it so they can make political capital from the fallout.
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Sep 22, 2019 08:57
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Tarnop posted:Putting two leave options vs. one remain on the referendum also leaves you open to accusations of attempting to split the leave vote.
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Sep 22, 2019 09:17
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If I'm reading Labour's position correctly, it kinda seems like every party in UK is dead certain that the EU will allow a deal with part of the 4 freedoms in and part out. Not sure where this is coming from, and how much of that is just posturing - since no one can really go to their constituencies and say "if we leave the EU we're going to get a worse deal than we have right now". Also I have to say that I kinda got misled by UKMT on how much Corbyn seems to be disliked by Labour political players in general or, to put it another way, how much pull the centrist wing of the party still has, even with Corbyn at the lead. The good counterpoint to "Brexit is going to suck no matter what" has always been "but at least Corbyn/Labour will be able to enact some decent socialist policies in the aftermath of that"...and the chance of that becoming reality seems dimmer and dimmer, the more Labour infight shifts from "It's just talk from the centrists" to "there is an actual big divide in place inside every political and organizational branch of the Labour party".
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Sep 22, 2019 09:42
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I think that depends quite a lot on how it is covered and communicated. The plp has always been melt central but the membership is massively pro corbyn. I don't think this thread has ever said otherwise. The issue is that those in line with the leadership aren't presenting an opinion contrary to the leadership which is what gets press coverage. Everyone loves a scandal and the press are happy to oblige.
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Sep 22, 2019 09:48
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If the Labour right ousts Corbyn and places another tedious New Labour-esque dickhead in there instead, I very much look forward to going back to what I used to do and just not voting for Labour
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Sep 22, 2019 10:14
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An interesting critique on Labour's new Ofsted plans: https://twitter.com/samfr/status/1175694537861279744?s=21
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Sep 22, 2019 10:20
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That Italian Guy posted:Also I have to say that I kinda got misled by UKMT on how much Corbyn seems to be disliked by Labour political players in general or, to put it another way, how much pull the centrist wing of the party still has, even with Corbyn at the lead. The good counterpoint to "Brexit is going to suck no matter what" has always been "but at least Corbyn/Labour will be able to enact some decent socialist policies in the aftermath of that"...and the chance of that becoming reality seems dimmer and dimmer, the more Labour infight shifts from "It's just talk from the centrists" to "there is an actual big divide in place inside every political and organizational branch of the Labour party". it's the shift to "which socialist policies, exactly" that is driving the ferment talk to three lefty people and one gets five opinions on which ones are the foundational non-negotiable planks and which ones can be horse-traded of course each one is going to assure you that theirs is the real socialism and the others are all centrist bastardisations or dupes though
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Sep 22, 2019 10:20
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