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"Brighton conference delegates reject call for clear anti-Brexit campaign ahead of next general election" That's a pretty loaded use of the word 'clear' guardian
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Sep 23, 2019 20:10
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I’ve come round to thinking that we HAVE to leave to end this, but hopefully in as soft a way as possible. That way we can say that we honoured the result of the stupid loving vote but not do too much damage other than making it harder for Timothy to go skiing.
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Sep 23, 2019 20:11
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notaspy posted:This really grinds my gears. The media constantly bangs on about how nuance has been lose and it's all populism etc. etc. But when labour takes up a balanced position it's portrayed as being ambiguous or unclear. Yeah. Also: <Media> Why do politicians take extreme positions instead of nuance and compromise <Corbyn> The EU is flawed but the benefits outweigh the downsides <Media> Corbyn wants a hard brexit
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Sep 23, 2019 20:11
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I still think remain is the best option because I don't think the EU will let us leave without some draconian state aid rules, so being in the bloc is probably going to give us more leverage on that, plus I don't really like the idea of not being able to throw the UK's weight around in the EU while being economically dependent on it, seems ill advised. But on the other hand it would give some very annoying idiots aneurysms so who can say whether it's bad or not?
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Sep 23, 2019 20:12
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Diet Crack posted:Fence Sitting Red Commie Jeremy Цорбын chooses to side with Remain, won't he ever make his mind up! Jeremy... Tzorbuin?
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Sep 23, 2019 20:14
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Diet Crack posted:Fence Sitting Red Commie Jeremy Цорбын chooses to side with Remain, won't he ever make his mind up! He's a Czech spy, not too Russian.
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Sep 23, 2019 20:14
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7CnMQ4L9Pc Just a joke!
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Sep 23, 2019 20:15
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Meh.
TRIXNET fucked around with this message at 11:37 on Sep 24, 2019 |
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Sep 23, 2019 20:15
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So just one last time You have complete faith in a guy who prior to becoming leader of opposition was known for a heavily Eurosceptic stance But whose party just maybe dodgily held a vote to sit on the fence even more To renegotiate the deal to include all the four freedoms And then put it to a populace of which a significant fraction of whichs piss will be boiling that we didn't leave with no deal
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Sep 23, 2019 20:16
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Were you in nandos when corbyn voted for brexit? Today is genuinely giving us the blessed harvest of liberal brainworms. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 20:22 on Sep 23, 2019 |
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Sep 23, 2019 20:20
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forkboy84 posted:It's funny, I was one of the first people in this thread to argue for a second referendum. Maybe the first, it was years ago. Because it was the only way you could reverse the disastrous decision without causing lots of unrest from people outraged that their democratic rights have been trampled on. And being on that tick while idiots like Stephen Kinnock were insisting we had to respect the decision apparently counts for nothing. i remember when i would agitate for revoke in order to reduce to the absurd a second referendum - like, revoking is clearly ridiculous, a referendum first doesn't really square that circle and if you're going to piss people off anyway, right? i didn't think they'd literally push for that poo poo. why must my life be littered with overestimations of the lib loving dems.
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Sep 23, 2019 20:24
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StarkingBarfish posted:"Brighton conference delegates reject call for clear anti-Brexit campaign ahead of next general election" I think May killed the word clear with the amount of times she insisted "I've been quite clear"
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Sep 23, 2019 20:24
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Azza Bamboo posted:I think May killed the word clear with the amount of times she insisted "I've been quite clear" And indeed, we saw right through her
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Sep 23, 2019 20:26
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Lots of posts about grammar schools and private schools ITT. Thought I'd dig up my previous post on the matter - since then I have become a course leader for Psych/Sociology degrees at my local Uni and have obtained an Msc in Sociology (studying the sociology of education lmao). The reason I slightly got my nuts out there was for the person who said private schools aren't that bad. Take the below and times a million. They are one of, if not, the greatest drivers of inequality in this country. The below doesn't really cover the absolutely gigantic distortion a privately educated elite with nepotism and so forth has on a society. quote:hought you lot might like an effort post I made on grammar schools to distract you from Pissflaps. Sorry it's a bit out of the blue.
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Sep 23, 2019 20:26
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forkboy84 posted:It's funny, I was one of the first people in this thread to argue for a second referendum. Maybe the first, it was years ago. Because it was the only way you could reverse the disastrous decision without causing lots of unrest from people outraged that their democratic rights have been trampled on. And being on that tick while idiots like Stephen Kinnock were insisting we had to respect the decision apparently counts for nothing. mine was that with it being so close a soft brexit was the compromise position that absolutely should have been the case post 2017 but like absolutely everything else she did May hosed it. Its her loving fault people think no deal is going to be fine
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Sep 23, 2019 20:27
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Zero Gravitas posted:
this is really disingenuous - i mean we are known for our heavily eurosceptic stance, for the exceedingly compelling reason the EU genuinely is awful. one of the ways in which it is awful is how it makes it insanely punitive to leave. this is not inconsistant with the remain position. and i have to ask - what are we aspiring to if corbyn is too eurosceptic? someone enthusiastic about something wildly unpopular with the electorate - even now at the loving eve of that punitive reality?
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Sep 23, 2019 20:30
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Jeremy Corbyn and John McDonnel were in waitrose plotting to not only leave with no deal but also to nuke the EU, pass it on.
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Sep 23, 2019 20:32
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OwlFancier posted:Jeremy Corbyn and John McDonnel were in waitrose plotting to not only leave with no deal but also to nuke the EU, pass it on. Champagne socialists with a touch of sun-dried tomatoes.
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Sep 23, 2019 20:36
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Yes, I have faith in the leader of the opposition who has been more successful in getting things to go his way than any other and who has been shown to know what he is doing. I do. If I am wrong at a later date, I will admit it, but currently I see no reason to think otherwise.
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Sep 23, 2019 20:43
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WhatEvil posted:You know, I'm a remainer, I voted remain and I wish the vote had never happened in the first place, but if Labour get the deal I think they can, I'm gonna be sorely loving tempted to vote for it over remain, partially because I think it's the only way to heal some of the divisions we've been seeing between leavers and the rest of us, and partly because I loving hate Fubpee-brainworm-Remain-At-All-Cost-ers. There is no way any deal will be better than staying in the EU. Don’t vote for the worse option just to spite some wankers. I spent Sunday basically in a full-day mild panic attack at the prospect of the Tories winning the election, and all the horrors that would follow. This isn’t going to be a normal election - usually the Tories winning is horrible, but represents the continuation of the country slowly spiralling down the toilet. This time it means straight down to oblivion. No deal Brexit and the madness that follows, and then the Tories taking advantage of the chaos to absolutely destroy the country, the NHS included. The choice is socialism or barbarism, now more than ever. Labour must win this election, the alternative is unthinkable. I’m feeling a bit better about it today. In part because I’ve decided that the polls, and the current balance of power and popularity is basically irrelevant, because when Brexit is delayed on the 31st, the Tories’ base will collapse and the entire vote share will be shuffled. It’s not guaranteed that that shuffling will benefit Labour, but it does mean that polls are even more meaningless than usual right now. So much is going to happen in the next few months.
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Sep 23, 2019 20:44
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VideoGames posted:Yes, I have faith in the leader of the opposition who has been more successful in getting things to go his way than any other and who has been shown to know what he is doing. I do. Did you get a promotion?
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Sep 23, 2019 20:46
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Zero Gravitas posted:So just one last time Speaking as somebody who was there, the vote wasn't dodgy. Close and tense yes, dodgy no, and the vote in favour of Composite 14 was a clear validation of Corbyn's policy by a majority of delegates. Composite 13 was also a non-starter - imagine going into an election campaign and saying 'we'll give the public a fair, safe choice between a good Remain option and a good Leave option... but we really want them to pick the Remain option.' If you have a clear policy that you want to pursue, why even bother with a referendum? Why not just make that policy part of your manifesto? You're just repeating Cameron's idiocy and gambling the fate of your party and the country with everything to lose.
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Sep 23, 2019 20:47
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Also remainers have no idea what the final result will be. Ban referendums and never pursue them again.
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Sep 23, 2019 20:50
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Nonsense posted:Also remainers have no idea what the final result will be. Ban referendums and never pursue them again. Referendums are fine as long as they are "we want to move from a to explicitly well defined b". They are awful when you say "lets from from an A to an undefined B that is everything you've ever wanted (but won't)".
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Sep 23, 2019 20:55
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haakman posted:Lots of posts about grammar schools and private schools ITT. Thought I'd dig up my previous post on the matter...
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Sep 23, 2019 20:58
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I’m only on page 305 but I’d like to express on the subject of private schools. I went to one in Cheshire and I don’t think the “privileged assholes” angle was too bad - there were a few but they were generally mocked for it. The whole “single sex” issue had much more of an impact on me tbh - I’m probably somewhere on the spectrum (never been so serious as to warrant diagnosis) but the lack of interaction with the opposite sex was a huge factor in my teen years and definitely contributed negatively to my emotional development, to the extent that I’ve been diagnosed with depression and PTSD as a result. Thankfully my old secondary school went mixed-sex in my 6th form and are now fully co-ed but I would never send any kids (if I had them, lol) to a single-sex school. I don’t know if this is useful to anyone but just wanted to put myself out there, hopefully this is another useful perspective 🤷🏻♂️
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Sep 23, 2019 21:02
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notaspy posted:Referendums are fine as long as they are "we want to move from a to explicitly well defined b". They are awful when you say "lets from from an A to an undefined B that is everything you've ever wanted (but won't)". Yeah referenda are fine if it's something like the recent abortion thing in Ireland: "Here is how things currently are with this clearly defined single issue, should we replace the current legislation [x] with this other already completely written and finalised, clear and simple legislation [y], Yes/No?". Or even "Here's how things are at the moment with this trade deal, should we negotiate a change to this trade deal and then have a second vote after negotiations to confirm if we want to go ahead and make the change, Yes/No?". But "Hey guys do you want to do this very very vaguely defined thing which has the potentially to royally gently caress everything and kill a load of people Yes/No?" is bad.
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Sep 23, 2019 21:05
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notaspy posted:Referendums are fine as long as they are "we want to move from a to explicitly well defined b". They are awful when you say "lets from from an A to an undefined B that is everything you've ever wanted (but won't)". I honestly think a big part of the Leave and later hard brexiters getting away with such nonsense is that Cameron and later May essentially let it happen. they were too afraid of damaging the party with blue on blue - particularly with Corbyn in the wings. the Yes campaign didn’t get away with half the poo poo Leave did - Cameron’s viciousness was even enough to campaign in England on in the next GE.
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Sep 23, 2019 21:05
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Ratjaculation posted:Did you get a promotion? I did yes!
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Sep 23, 2019 21:08
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I think the lesson that people still aren’t loving getting is plan for a failure state in your referenda. you could put anything to a vote so long as everyone planned for both outcomes.
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Sep 23, 2019 21:08
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lol the civil service were banned from preparing for leave winning. Cameron worst PM.
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Sep 23, 2019 21:11
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The entire brexit problem of the last two years is because Cameron called a referendum with the intent of achieving one outcome, and did not stop for a minute to think what would happen if it didn't. And people want to do that again to fix it.
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Sep 23, 2019 21:12
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I_Socom posted:I’m only on page 305 but I’d like to express on the subject of private schools. I went to one in Cheshire and I don’t think the “privileged assholes” angle was too bad - there were a few but they were generally mocked for it. Stunningly enough the 'probably somewhere on the specturm' and 'probably experienced depression and anxiety for most of my teen and adult life' things both come in for me, and the lack of notice paid to both probably has at least some of its roots in the school environment I was in I feel you on that one..
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Sep 23, 2019 21:15
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haakman posted:Long effort post about grammar schools This post is excellent and completely true. I previously taught in a state grammar school where we had year 7 students commuting an hour each way on their own, largely because their middle class parents didn't want them mixing with the poor. It was very noticeable how few of the students were local. At 11+ time parents were entering their kids for the exams in several counties to guarantee entry. Lots of students had either attended private primaries or had tutors to prepare for the exams, while state primaries were forbidden from doing prep classes. At one point the headteacher told me there was no evidence grammar schools improve outcomes. I currently work in a private school (will make my own way to the wall), largely because the pay and conditions are actually decent. My classes are small and behaviour is never a problem. We have a lot of international students, many paid for by the Chinese government, which is basically the only way most private schools keep running. General staff consensus is that the Labour policy is good and as long as we still have jobs it's fine. Every kid should have access to small classes, good resources and decent teachers.
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Sep 23, 2019 21:17
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OwlFancier posted:The entire brexit problem of the last two years is because Cameron called a referendum with the intent of achieving one outcome, and did not stop for a minute to think what would happen if it didn't. The response to that seems generally to be that Leave only won because the Leave campaign did crimes, and it was illegal and Corbyn is a secret brexiter. Clearly next time there wont be millions of people who want to vote Leave and definitely havent been entrenched in their position because of years of bitter division. Alternatively they go full authoritarianism, democracy is mistake (when people dont vote for things I like).
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Sep 23, 2019 21:23
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CoolCab posted:this is really disingenuous - i mean we are known for our heavily eurosceptic stance, for the exceedingly compelling reason the EU genuinely is awful. one of the ways in which it is awful is how it makes it insanely punitive to leave.
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Sep 23, 2019 21:24
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Coohoolin posted:Jeremy... Tzorbuin? Okay thank gently caress it wasn't just me who read that and went ???
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Sep 23, 2019 21:26
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VideoGames posted:I did yes! Congratulations Can you update the copyright at the bottom from 2 years ago - it bugs me and i fear anyone can just steal my political quips
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Sep 23, 2019 21:28
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WhatEvil posted:Yeah referenda are fine if it's something like the recent abortion thing in Ireland: "Here is how things currently are with this clearly defined single issue, should we replace the current legislation [x] with this other already completely written and finalised, clear and simple legislation [y], Yes/No?". I know you're making the point about specifying exactly what happens in either case, but I've seen the argument made that especially the Irish equal marriage vote (and I guess the abortion one too) should never have been referenda at all, because they concern matters of right and wrong, which shouldn't be decided by public whim. Like, if the marriage one had gone against, what then? Just accept the result? I'm aware that in both these cases, it was constitutionally necessary to do it that way, and "we" won, so that's fine, but I guess my criteria for a referendum would be a) clearly defined outcomes b) not on matters of fundamental rights and c) preferably, if there's a status quo option, the person calling the referendum is against it. Otherwise it makes no sense.
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Sep 23, 2019 21:29
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A Buttery Pastry posted:The EU doesn't make it insanely punitive to leave. The punitive nature is literally just losing the upsides of membership, which will naturally be quite harsh after almost a century of economic integration and the outsourcing of your trade delegations. Uhhh the EU didn't originate in the 1920s. If it had history might be VERY different.
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Sep 23, 2019 21:30
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