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In what way is it remotely necessary for labour to recommend a position on the referendum? The whole point of it is to allow labour members and voters to advocate according to their preferences because the voter base is not unified behind a single position and the intent is to also bring some reconciliation with other leave voters, you know, so that the country doesn't devolve further into insane screaming? You have some really loving bizzare notions of how things "have" to be.
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Sep 30, 2019 12:09
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uwu i wuvvvvv wefewendums
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Sep 30, 2019 12:11
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mediadave posted:I mean, I think the obvious and defendable position would be to support a Norway-like deal with confirmatory referendum. Well I disagree, because it's something that won't please anybody and is inferior to staying in the EU in every regard. I'm open to your point of view in general, but I think its only appeal is as a compromise which neither brexiteers or remainers like. I'd rather the party stayed neutral and individual people were free to campaign as they want.
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Sep 30, 2019 12:13
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OwlFancier posted:In what way is it remotely necessary for labour to recommend a position on the referendum? The whole point of it is to allow labour members and voters to advocate according to their preferences because the voter base is not unified behind a single position and the intent is to also bring some reconciliation with other leave voters, you know, so that the country doesn't devolve further into insane screaming? Well, argue that with the Labour party then, that's the policy. "The NEC believes it is right that the party shall only decide how to campaign in such a referendum – through a one-day special conference, following the election of a Labour Government." https://labourlist.org/2019/09/nec-brexit-statement-and-the-two-brexit-motions-going-to-conference/
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Sep 30, 2019 12:14
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I also wholly agree that the party and government should remain neutral, because the sole purpose of a second referendum is its utility in repairing the damage done by the whole stupid brexit poo poo, and that is far more important than whether we actually remain or end up with some norway style thing, because failure to fix that damage is going to lead to far worse political consequences down the road than flaccid brexit will.
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Sep 30, 2019 12:15
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Guavanaut posted:Traditionally no, you can go down to the depths of Hell within your freehold (ad inferos). Jokes on them when I build 100,000 person apartment complex on a 20x20 meter area in London that's just stairs and an elevator topside.
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Sep 30, 2019 12:17
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mediadave posted:Well, argue that with the Labour party then, that's the policy. If one outcome is clearly worse then they can decide to campaign against it (like, say, if the tories call the terms and put no deal on the ballot). If Labour negotiate a deal and set the terms of the referendum then they can decide to remain neutral and allow MPs to campaign as they see fit. This really isn't difficult to grasp.
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Sep 30, 2019 12:18
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The strangest idea to me is that a 2nd referendum would settle the issue rather than be a second running kick to the hornets nest
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Sep 30, 2019 12:18
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But what even is the argument for a second referendum, if the argument is (and it is) that we accept the outcome of the initial referendum? Only a confirmatory referendum passes the smell test. (And tbh I think Norway has a lot to be argued for - it's the economic integration outside political integration that eurosceptics spent forty years arguing for, and given cultural reasons and the referendum result, may be where Britain should be.)
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Sep 30, 2019 12:20
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Eschenique posted:Jokes on them when I build 100,000 person apartment complex on a 20x20 meter area in London that's just stairs and an elevator topside.
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Sep 30, 2019 12:21
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The argument is that the first referendum didn't actually define what brexit was other than "not technically being in the EU any more" but none of the actual relationship, because much like your galaxy brained arse, cameron wanted a referendum to validate his own ego. A second referendum should be on concrete proposals which can be quickly implemented, which is exactly how it's supposed to go. You're being deliberately dense.
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Sep 30, 2019 12:22
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OwlFancier posted:The argument is that the first referendum didn't actually define what brexit was other than "not technically being in the EU any more" but none of the actual relationship. A second referendum should be on concrete proposals which can be quickly implemented, which is exactly how it's supposed to go. You're being deliberately dense. yes, a confirmatory referendum. We propose a norway style deal, but remain is on the ballot. Please vote.
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Sep 30, 2019 12:23
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The point is the brexit referendum was a piece of poo poo bad faith referendum called by an idiot trying to resolve internal party politics.
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Sep 30, 2019 12:24
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chestnut santabag posted:The point is the brexit referendum was a piece of poo poo bad faith referendum called by an idiot trying to resolve internal party politics. True - but the Labour party policy is that we accept the outcome.
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Sep 30, 2019 12:24
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mediadave posted:But what even is the argument for a second referendum, if the argument is (and it is) that we accept the outcome of the initial referendum? Only a confirmatory referendum passes the smell test. A confirmatory referendum is exactly what it is, once we know what leaving actually entails. I don't even know what your point is, other than desperately trying to take shots at Labour.
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Sep 30, 2019 12:24
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mediadave posted:yes, a confirmatory referendum. We propose a norway style deal, but remain is on the ballot. Please vote. that. is. what. you. are. getting. you. clod.
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Sep 30, 2019 12:25
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Eschenique posted:Jokes on them when I build 100,000 person apartment complex on a 20x20 meter area in London that's just stairs and an elevator topside. do you have house in your stairs?
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Sep 30, 2019 12:25
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There's no way the people will vote for no deal Ah! Well, nevertheless
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Sep 30, 2019 12:25
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Brits would without a doubt vote to leave again but this time harder than ever. They've spent the past 3 years feeding on anti EU propaganda while watching their political elite head off to Brussels, one by one to get kicked in the nuts and shot in the head. Relations are worse than they have ever been.
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Sep 30, 2019 12:25
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mediadave posted:True - but the Labour party policy is that we accept the outcome. Yeah and that's the compromise - negotiate a deal but then have it confirmed by a proper referendum not organised by a clownshoes outfit.
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Sep 30, 2019 12:26
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Guavanaut posted:'London shenanigans' is the reason why "I'm a freeholder and I have the right to literally dig down to the Asthenosphere if I want" ended up going all the way to the High Court in the first place. Well if they don't like it they can COME DOWN TO HELL AND GET ME.
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Sep 30, 2019 12:26
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Doctor_Fruitbat posted:A confirmatory referendum is exactly what it is, once we know what leaving actually entails. I don't even know what your point is, other than desperately trying to take shots at Labour. Lol yes, I'm desperately trying to take shots at labour.. Look, in every interview from now until election day, every Labour interviewee is going to be asked: "You're proposing another referendum, but what do you actually want to happen? Leave or Remain?" "You're proposing another referendum, but what do you actually want to happen? Leave or Remain?" "You're proposing another referendum, but what do you actually want to happen? Leave or Remain?" "You're proposing another referendum, but what do you actually want to happen? Leave or Remain?" "You're proposing another referendum, but what do you actually want to happen? Leave or Remain?" "You're proposing another referendum, but what do you actually want to happen? Leave or Remain?" "You're proposing another referendum, but what do you actually want to happen? Leave or Remain?" "You're proposing another referendum, but what do you actually want to happen? Leave or Remain?" "You're proposing another referendum, but what do you actually want to happen? Leave or Remain?" "You're proposing another referendum, but what do you actually want to happen? Leave or Remain?" Labour needs an answer to that.
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Sep 30, 2019 12:26
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Oh god Nigel just appeared on the TV He's claiming that he helped get rid of Theresa and got Boris in, and claims that no deal is the most popular opinion now. He's standing up for Boris using the language of shits surprisingly, shouting about how he can't bring the deal back like he has any vote on the matter. I think he just claimed that Anna Sourby on TV way too much. He's saying we've had enough of being talked down to and humiliated, since we're doing it so well ourselves. He's still begging for a non-aggression pact and is misrepresenting Labours position on brexit, constantly speaking about the manifesto which they didn't win on last time and holding them to it? Now he's shouting about the immigration vote from the conference, saying he loves immigration BUT! Goddamn I feel sick. I want brexit cancelled so he dons his khakis and see how far he actually gets.
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Sep 30, 2019 12:27
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btw Eschenique what's your av from it looks familiar
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Sep 30, 2019 12:27
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Eschenique posted:Brits would without a doubt vote to leave again but this time harder than ever. They've spent the past 3 years feeding on anti EU propaganda while watching their political elite head off to Brussels, one by one to get kicked in the nuts and shot in the head. Which is precisely why you shouldn't give them the option for that, you give them a workable leave option and if it passes the remainers have to deal with losing two referendums, but the second one is pretty irrefutable between two definite options, people absolutely knew what they were voting for, they have no excuse.
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Sep 30, 2019 12:27
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OwlFancier posted:that. is. what. you. are. getting. you. clod. No it isn't - why? Because Labour won't support the leave deal!
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Sep 30, 2019 12:27
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mediadave posted:Lol yes, I'm desperately trying to take shots at labour.. Demanding complicated issues have simple solutions is why we're in this mess in the first place.
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Sep 30, 2019 12:28
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mediadave posted:Lol yes, I'm desperately trying to take shots at labour.. No they loving don't, that's the point of a loving referendum, you want people to decide. You don't ask the loving electoral commission who they want to win the general election.
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Sep 30, 2019 12:28
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chestnut santabag posted:clownshoes outfit. Is it an outfit if it's just shoes?
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Sep 30, 2019 12:29
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Tesseraction posted:Demanding complicated issues have simple solutions is why we're in this mess in the first place. All I'm saying I wish had happened, is that the Labour policy between the euro elections and the Labour party conference had remained and been argued for. It was much better than what we had going into the euro elections (where we allowed the 'Lib Dem Fightback LOLOLOLLERS' to manifest) and it's a lot better than what we have now, which allows the Lib dems and Cons to say 'Labour have no opinion on the most serious blah blah!'
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Sep 30, 2019 12:30
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"We'll negotiate a deal then let the people decide, we aren't weighing in to avoid accusations of influencing the outcome". Hhhuurrrgghhhhh my brane hurts, just tell me how to vote please.
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Sep 30, 2019 12:31
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mediadave posted:All I'm saying I wish had happened, is that the Labour policy between the euro elections and the Labour party conference had remained and been argued for. It was much better than what we had going into the euro elections (where we allowed the 'Lib Dem Fightback LOLOLOLLERS' to manifest) and it's a lot better than what we have now, which allows the Lib dems and Cons to say 'Labour have no opinion on the most serious blah blah!' Just so I'm on the same page as you, can you specify exactly what the two positions are as you understand them?
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Sep 30, 2019 12:34
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bump_fn posted:uwu i wuvvvvv wefewendums Should I issue probations for posts this cursed, perhaps the thread can vote in a referendum.
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Sep 30, 2019 12:36
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Lightning Knight posted:Should I issue probations for posts this cursed, perhaps the thread can vote in a referendum. *thread votes to somehow make it so only cursed posts are allowed*
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Sep 30, 2019 12:37
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Tesseraction posted:Just so I'm on the same page as you, can you specify exactly what the two positions are as you understand them? Paraphrasing, the policy going into the euro elections was 'We accept the result of the referendum. We support negotiating a close relationship with Eu based on a customs Union, workers rights, ongoing alignment with single market etc. We support the idea of a referendum in some circumstances." Paraphrasing, the policy after the euro elections was 'We accept the result of the referendum. We support negotiating a close relationship with Eu based on a customs Union, workers rights, ongoing alignment with single market etc. This will have a confirmatory referendum with remain as an outcome."
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Sep 30, 2019 12:39
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You can't have a Norway deal because Norway's border situation is the result of something like 200 years worth of work, diplomacy and negotiations. And their trade deal something like 50 years. You can't have that in a few months. It's more realistic to peacefully annex the rest of Ireland and make Belfast the new capital.
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Sep 30, 2019 12:39
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mediadave posted:Paraphrasing, the policy going into the euro elections was This is mostly correct, but the whole reason that Corbyn is getting so much pushback is that the last bit is "and we will decide whether to back remain, leave, or stay neutral once that renegotiation has completed."
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Sep 30, 2019 12:40
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How can Labour stake out a position on a deal they haven’t made yet
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Sep 30, 2019 12:41
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Fingerless Gloves posted:Oh god Nigel just appeared on the TV From what I've heard from Farage lately he seems to be testing the waters with Soubry, in a 'wink wink nudge nudge let's see what the people think of her' fashion.
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Sep 30, 2019 12:41
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I can't get enough of are Dan
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Tesseraction posted:This is mostly correct, but the whole reason that Corbyn is getting so much pushback is that the last bit is "and we will decide whether to back remain, leave, or stay neutral once that renegotiation has completed." Yeah, that's what's been added/confirmed with the conference policy.
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Sep 30, 2019 12:42
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