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There was more than just the one tweet; stuff from 2007 links Luis Fernando Camacho, who has been a part of this coup for a while, to the Actual Nazi Gangs, as well. https://twitter.com/fcn_84/status/1193718439979950081 Camacho was also inside the government building after the whole "taking down the Wiphala and burning it" thing, bringing in a Bolivian flag and putting a Bible on it. https://twitter.com/OliviaArigho/status/1193687131564204032 https://twitter.com/LizzieVisitante/status/1193677215826927616 https://twitter.com/LizzieVisitante/status/1193721365167247360 https://twitter.com/llchristyll/status/1193647794529157120 And he's the one claiming that there's an arrest warrant out for Morales and stuff. Also, another person linking him to the Nazis. https://twitter.com/MorganPaulett/status/1193704755589242880 But I'm sure that he's just some random dude and not representative of a movement that he's been, you know, leading multiple demonstrations for them and been referred to for weeks now as a "civic leader" and "icon of the opposition" by pro-coup media outlets and whatnot. That's why he was one of two people the vice president called upon to stop the violence, the other being Carlos Mesa, the actual opposition candidate. I'm sure the VP calling some random nobody alongside the main opposition candidate is completely normal.
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Nov 11, 2019 07:47
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joepinetree posted:This is the dumbest loving thing. Yes that is what I am making fun of. #AskAVenezuelan was a poorly hidden attempt to center the Venezuela discourse around pro-coup aristocrats living abroad. Prince Myshkin fucked around with this message at 07:51 on Nov 11, 2019 |
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Nov 11, 2019 07:48
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Wobbuffet posted:And this where I solidly disagree with the majority of you. You guys see this as a coup, me and millions of other Bolivianos view this as an authoritarian stepping down from power after the people had enough of his illegal bid for the presidency. You're objectively wrong and just because you don't like the guy doesn't mean being forced by military gunpoint to leave his position is anything but a coup. It's not an opinion. Your insistence otherwise really colors everything else you say.
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Nov 11, 2019 07:48
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Are we on track to have Venezuela thread mk2? Saw the news then the shedload of posts. If so then the thread title is apt.
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Nov 11, 2019 07:48
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Wobbuffet posted:And this where I solidly disagree with the majority of you. You guys see this as a coup, me and millions of other Bolivianos view this as an authoritarian stepping down from power after the people had enough of his illegal bid for the presidency. If it were just Morales, maybe (I mean, I personally would disagree but you'd at least have A case.) When they force everyone in the presidential succession out until it finally gets to the opposition that's an unambiguous, 100%, clear cut military loving coup.
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Nov 11, 2019 07:48
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Wobbuffet posted:And this where I solidly disagree with the majority of you. You guys see this as a coup, me and millions of other Bolivianos view this as an authoritarian stepping down from power after the people had enough of his illegal bid for the presidency. So many Bolivians were fed up with his illegal bid that most of them voted to reelect him lmao.
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Nov 11, 2019 07:49
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Wobbuffet posted:And this where I solidly disagree with the majority of you. You guys see this as a coup, me and millions of other Bolivianos view this as an authoritarian stepping down from power after the people had enough of his illegal bid for the presidency. And yet a larger group of Bolivians disagree with you. But hey, that larger group clearly doesn't love democracy as much as you do. ANIME AKBAR posted:Hey Majoran of all the nasty poo poo you've posted tonight this one really stands out. I presume if RBG were to keel over tomorrow and Roe v Wade were to be overturned next week you'd shrug your shoulders and say "not much to complain about, after all Trump has a 40% approval rating!" Wow, a perfect analogy, I couldn't improve on it one bit. Those two things are 100% the same. 
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Nov 11, 2019 07:50
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reignonyourparade posted:"Can't believe people aren't just peacefully accepting the coup, this is why we needed a coup." Wait, wait, wait...people were condemning the burning of Morales' family homes, but now that Morales supporters are doing it right now, it's fine? Huh?
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Nov 11, 2019 07:50
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Wobbuffet posted:Wait, wait, wait...people were condemning the burning of Morales' family homes, but now that Morales supporters are doing it right now, it's fine? Huh? Morales' family didn't engage in a U.S.-supported military coup.
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Nov 11, 2019 07:52
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Roland Jones posted:There was more than just the one tweet; stuff from 2007 links Luis Fernando Camacho, who has been a part of this coup for a while, to the Actual Nazi Gangs, as well.
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Nov 11, 2019 07:52
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Wobbuffet posted:And this where I solidly disagree with the majority of you. You guys see this as a coup, me and millions of other Bolivianos view this as an authoritarian stepping down from power after the people had enough of his illegal bid for the presidency. It was only a single person who ended his bid for the presidency actually. ANIME AKBAR posted:Yeah this all seriously awful poo poo, and I hope these brownshirts get put in the stocks. But is this why Morales stepped down? Just a few hours ago people itt seemed certain that the military forced Morales to resign. Now its some underground fascist movement? The whiplash is unbearable. It's just an alignment of interest, they have shared interest is all.
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Nov 11, 2019 07:54
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ANIME AKBAR posted:Yeah this all seriously awful poo poo, and I hope these brownshirts get put in the stocks. But is this why Morales stepped down? Just a few hours ago people itt seemed certain that the military forced Morales to resign. Now its some underground fascist movement? The whiplash is unbearable. Do you seriously know so little about the history of U.S.-sponsored coups in Latin America or something? 
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Nov 11, 2019 07:54
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Wobbuffet posted:Wait, wait, wait...people were condemning the burning of Morales' family homes, but now that Morales supporters are doing it right now, it's fine? Huh? Its almost like self defense against fascism justifies violence. While lust for power, treasure, and genocide do not.
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Nov 11, 2019 07:54
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Wobbuffet posted:Wait, wait, wait...people were condemning the burning of Morales' family homes, but now that Morales supporters are doing it right now, it's fine? Huh? "Wooo, we successfully couped, now we can go hog wild enacting violence on all our enemies" is a different thing thing than "someone couped the legitimate government i support, i'm going to lash out with violence." It's not about it being fine or not fine, it's just the obvious loving result of couping a popular leader. If the military didn't want people burning poo poo down, they shouldn't have couped.
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Nov 11, 2019 07:55
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ANIME AKBAR posted:Yeah this all seriously awful poo poo, and I hope these brownshirts get put in the stocks. But is this why Morales stepped down? Just a few hours ago people itt seemed certain that the military forced Morales to resign. Now its some underground fascist movement? The whiplash is unbearable. "One of the coup's two major leaders is an actual Nazi" and "the military and police support the coup and pressured Morales to leave" are not at all contradictory positions, especially when said Nazi gently caress seems to be working with the military and police given that he's the one announcing stuff like the military having an arrest warrant out for Morales and has been riding on police vehicles to give his opposition rallies and whatnot. Let alone that other US-backed coups have also involved both far-right extremists and the military, so it's not like this is a unique development. I do not understand how you could possibly think "But how could both the military and Nazi gangs be involved in the same coup? It has to be one or the other," yet that seems to be what you're actually saying. Roland Jones fucked around with this message at 08:01 on Nov 11, 2019 |
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Nov 11, 2019 07:59
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420 Gank Mid posted:Its almost like self defense against fascism justifies violence. While lust for power, treasure, and genocide do not. Look it's 100% ignoreable when nazis and fascists do it, but when the intolerant left gets violently couped they should just roll over and let the swastikas fly high, any resistance is proof they need to be subjugated.
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Nov 11, 2019 07:59
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420 Gank Mid posted:So many Bolivians were fed up with his illegal bid that most of them voted to reelect him lmao. Morales had around 5% of an advantage over Mesa before the count of votes went down for 24 hours. It was not enough for him to win outright. It would have gone to a second round with less candidates on the acts to determine who the president would be.
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Nov 11, 2019 08:01
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look, just because the united states has an extremely long history of toppling democratically elected governments using right wing coups in order to further us economic interests, doesn’t mean that this coup in a country with an extremely valuable mineral resource controlled by a democratically elected government that isn’t controlled by us interests was encouraged by the united states.
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Nov 11, 2019 08:02
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Wobbuffet posted:Morales had around 5% of an advantage over Mesa before the count of votes went down for 24 hours. It was not enough for him to win outright. It would have gone to a second round with less candidates on the acts to determine who the president would be. Until the military stopped the elections and purged the civilian government
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Nov 11, 2019 08:03
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Wobbuffet posted:Morales had around 5% of an advantage over Mesa before the count of votes went down for 24 hours. It was not enough for him to win outright. It would have gone to a second round with less candidates on the acts to determine who the president would be. Good thing your side wasn't destroying any ballot boxes. Oh oops, they were??? I'm sure all legitimate election factions do that, it's a sure sign they have popular support.
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Nov 11, 2019 08:05
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Wobbuffet posted:Morales had around 5% of an advantage over Mesa before the count of votes went down for 24 hours. It was not enough for him to win outright. It would have gone to a second round with less candidates on the acts to determine who the president would be. I'm getting the impression that you're not as well-informed about what's going on in your own country as you think you are: https://twitter.com/kevinmcashman/status/1193703928816254976 https://twitter.com/kevinmcashman/status/1193703930477207552 https://twitter.com/kevinmcashman/status/1193703932503064576 https://twitter.com/kevinmcashman/status/1193703934554042368 https://twitter.com/kevinmcashman/status/1193703936412114944 https://twitter.com/kevinmcashman/status/1193703938899374080
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Nov 11, 2019 08:07
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Majorian posted:Wow, a perfect analogy, I couldn't improve on it one bit. Those two things are 100% the same. I'm just gonna put you in the "democracy is good, except when I say it isn't" bin. Roland Jones posted:"One of the coup's two major leaders is an actual Nazi" and "the military and police support the coup and pressured Morales to leave" are not at all contradictory positions, especially when said Nazi gently caress seems to be working with the military and police given that he's the one announcing stuff like the military having an arrest warrant out for Morales and has been riding on police vehicles to give his opposition rallies and whatnot. Let alone that other US-backed coups have also involved both far-right extremists and the military, so it's not like this is a unique development. I do not understand how you could possibly think "But how could both the military and Nazi gangs be involved in the same coup? It has to be one or the other," yet that seems to be what you're actually saying. No it doesn't have to be one or the other. It just sounds extraordinary enough to justify more evidence than a couple twitter threads from people I don't know. I appreciate your input though. If it's true that there's a large fascist element to the opposition, then it's hard to imagine it getting enough popular support to sustain itself. Which means either the coup it going to fail miserably (good-ish end) or they go Pinochet 2.0, popular support be damned (bad end). ANIME AKBAR fucked around with this message at 08:12 on Nov 11, 2019 |
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Nov 11, 2019 08:09
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420 Gank Mid posted:Until the military stopped the elections and purged the civilian government ????? No, the count went back up after 24 hours, it showed that Morales had suddenly over 10% margin and had "won" the first round, despite, in those 24 hours, reports of MAS supporters breaking open ballot boxes, forging signatures, stuffing said boxes away from the people counting acts, etc. Of course people would be furious.
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Nov 11, 2019 08:11
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it sure is weird that a country that has 50-70% of the world’s lithium supply and has also nationalized said mining industry would suddenly have a case of the coup.
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Nov 11, 2019 08:13
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Wobbuffet posted:????? The second round of elections were cancelled when the military and fascist paramilitaries exiled the top vote getter A sure sign they were totally confident he would not win right?
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Nov 11, 2019 08:14
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Wobbuffet posted:????? The quick count, which is the thing that stopped after 24 hours, is not the same thing as the official count, and Morales' support jumping by several points when rural areas started reporting in is completely unsurprising. Have a look at the tweets I posted just a couple posts ago.
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Nov 11, 2019 08:16
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Wobbuffet posted:????? The actual count had not happened yet. An early guesstimate count had happened, then they stopped that when they started the actual count. This is how bolivia's elections work. Even if it WAS the actual count, all that morales needed out of the remaining vote is from some basic algebra ~56% of the remaining vote, EXTREMELY easy to accomplish when the stuff left to count is the poor rural areas that form his base of support. Hardly "not enough for him to win outright."
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Nov 11, 2019 08:19
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Wobbuffet posted:????? You still haven’t addressed the part where they lined up everyone in succession and had them resign until they got one of their people. Y’know, the part where they couped. Like, you’re not going to convince anyone here you aren’t full of it because you’re very clearly ignoring certain things that make it very obvious that this is a coup. TBH it seems more like you’re repeating what you were told by friends and ignoring any and all evidence to the contrary, but you do you, I guess. Just feels like you should give more of a poo poo about evidence and arguments in a forum about debate and discussion.
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Nov 11, 2019 08:23
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ANIME AKBAR posted:I'm just gonna put you in the "democracy is good, except when I say it isn't" bin. Democracy is a means to an end, no particular reason to worship the process. Powerful interest most certainly do not.
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Nov 11, 2019 08:25
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ANIME AKBAR posted:lol nice stealth edit Indeed, because I'm the one supporting a right-wing coup over the wishes of a plurality of Bolivian voters. But please, keep telling me how my posts are tantamount to support for overturning Roe v. Wade, you galaxy-brained genius you. 
Majorian fucked around with this message at 08:29 on Nov 11, 2019 |
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Nov 11, 2019 08:26
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It's pretty clear that this began as a legitimate protest movement but has transitioned to a coup. The Bolivian military and other right-wing sectors were looking for an excuse to get rid of Evo Morales, which is bad, but that doesn't mean everything the Bolivian government did before and during this crisis was above criticism. Back in 2016, the majority of the voters didn't want Evo Morales to run again and voted against it. Why did he not accept that outcome at the time? And no, this isn't "justified" retroactively by winning a new election. For a better U.S. comparison...imagine that in a few years the Supreme Court of the U.S. says Trump running for a third term is legal because it's his "human right" to do so. How many of you would consider that to be a valid legal argument? Or would it be "justified" after he wins? In the real world, courts are not politically neutral institutions. Nor are the military forces. Stopping the quick vote count was a poor decision and looked suspicious as hell, especially in light of such a close result. Historically, such situations have led to actual instances of fraud in other countries even within Latin America (including against left-wing parties). I don't blame anyone for crying foul. wielder fucked around with this message at 08:37 on Nov 11, 2019 |
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Nov 11, 2019 08:34
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Question for those paying more attention to the regional news: 1. Who is now governing the country? I see in the news both the President and the Vice-President resigned. Who is the acting head-of-state? 2. Are the new elections announced 15 hours previously still going to go ahead?
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Nov 11, 2019 08:35
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wielder posted:For a better U.S. comparison...imagine that in a few years the Supreme Court of the U.S. says Trump running for a third term is legal because it's his "human right" to do so. How many of you would consider that to be a valid legal argument? Actually it's more like if FDR didn't die and the supreme court went "it's not retroactive, a limit of two terms means he gets to finish this term since it partly intersects with the law and then he gets one more."
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Nov 11, 2019 08:37
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ronya posted:Question for those paying more attention to the regional news: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeanine_%C3%81%C3%B1ez But I would guess real power lies with the military tribunal that was arresting people to pin electron fraud on.
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Nov 11, 2019 08:38
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ronya posted:Question for those paying more attention to the regional news: If you go down the presidential succession it takes until the second deputy senate leader to get to an opposition politicians so they force out everyone from morales to the first deputy senate leader, putting the opposition second deputy senate leader in charge. Supposedly as "interim leader" and they might actually go through with elections since they're performing show trials for everyone who could possibly run on the left.
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Nov 11, 2019 08:39
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reignonyourparade posted:If you go down the presidential succession it takes until the second deputy senate leader to get to an opposition politicians so they force out everyone from morales to the first deputy senate leader, putting the opposition second deputy senate leader in charge. Supposedly as "interim leader" and they might actually go through with elections since they're performing show trials for everyone who could possibly run on the left. Maybe the head of the military will run. He is almost certainly a member of the old party.
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Nov 11, 2019 08:40
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wielder posted:For a better U.S. comparison...imagine that in a few years the Supreme Court of the U.S. says Trump running for a third term is legal because it's his "human right" to do so. How many of you would consider that to be a valid legal argument? Or would it be "justified" after he wins? One pretty obvious problem with this analogy is that the Bolivian Supreme Court is popularly elected, as opposed to appointed by the President and confirmed by the Senate, like SCOTUS.
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Nov 11, 2019 08:42
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Majorian posted:One pretty obvious problem with this analogy is that the Bolivian Supreme Court is popularly elected, as opposed to appointed by the President and confirmed by the Senate, like SCOTUS. Do you think this is a good or bad thing?
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Nov 11, 2019 08:45
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punk rebel ecks posted:Do you think this is a good or bad thing? The point is that Morales did not in fact stack the supreme court, if the supreme court is "stacked" it was done by the people of Bolivia themselves. Very different than if the people that trump personally put on the supreme court cast the deciding votes that yes, the person who put them on the supreme court gets to run again!
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Nov 11, 2019 08:47
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Majorian posted:One pretty obvious problem with this analogy is that the Bolivian Supreme Court is popularly elected, as opposed to appointed by the President and confirmed by the Senate, like SCOTUS. Fair enough (although I wonder how much real or perceived party-affiliation or alignment plays a role in the campaigns for those judicial elections), but that still doesn't make them politically neutral. For the simple reason that few human beings are. reignonyourparade posted:Actually it's more like if FDR didn't die and the supreme court went "it's not retroactive, a limit of two terms means he gets to finish this term since it partly intersects with the law and then he gets one more." I think they had already used that argument for Evo's previous term(s). Not for this current cycle. Otherwise, he wouldn't have held the 2016 referendum about abolishing term limits. Which he lost. Term limits weren't abolished entirely until 2017, when the Court ruled on that "human right" basis. wielder fucked around with this message at 08:55 on Nov 11, 2019 |
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Nov 11, 2019 08:53
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