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skasion posted:^it’s because the prequels were better. Or if you don’t want to believe that, then it’s because they didn’t have to contend with a bunch of built-in hate for the franchise inflicted on them by the previous few movies. The prequels were the worst movies in the franchise (not counting "holy poo poo was George Lucas secretly not involved in the OT at all?" things like the holiday special), but they were also each released 3 years apart, giving audiences plenty of time time to recover from incredible disappointment. Hype for the first movie was, of course, insane, and the movie was a complete and utter train wreck. So people were a little less hyped for the second movie, but nostalgia easily prevailed and everyone was like "maybe the first movie being bad was just a fluke?" Nope, second movie was even worse. "Well the third movie is where Anakin becomes Darth Vader, so that'll probably be mostly badass scenes with Darth Vader murdering jedi, looking forward to that!" Nope, movie was atrociously bad, and everyone by that point basically accepted that Star Wars is dead. The Disney movies are objectively better films than the prequels, albeit still pretty mediocre, but we're also getting a new movie every year now. In Disney's greed they've eliminated any cooldown period between releases, so you're constantly being reminded about the last Star Wars movie and how meh it was. And whereas people could always hype themselves up for the sick Darth Vader prequel movie that would never come, there's nothing to pin their hopes and nostalgia on anymore. You might argue that you could pin hype to the Emperor, but that's actually kind of a downer, the opposite of hype, since his survival marks the failure of two beloved characters from the OT (Vader and Luke) and kind of ruins the OT's capstone. So there's no reason to feel hyped and the most recent failures in the Disney series of movies are still pretty fresh. We're way past the point of having unclear expectations: this is going to be a bad movie. revwinnebago posted:This I will grant the prequel defenders. A lot of kids had never seen a really out-there sci-fi movie before, and there was at least a single vision driving the films. It was a terrible, pointless, boring, Freudian nightmare. But it was something. Bullshit. "At least George Lucas was doing his own thing" is what idiots say when they're feeling nostalgic but can't think of anything positive to say. There's no single vision driving the prequel trilogy, those movies are all over the place and the characters in them randomly do out-of-character poo poo because Lucas is a lovely hack writer. "It was something" is accurate, since it's also what you'd say after a bad day of food poisoning or maybe a hangover. Which is what the prequel movies were: an hours-long noisy headache that was ultimately just a waste of time, leading you to question which of your life's missteps led you to this low point. QuarkJets fucked around with this message at 21:17 on Nov 26, 2019 |
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Nov 26, 2019 21:14
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No Mods No Masters posted:Find a theater that will let you pay for a ticket for cats but walk in to star wars. It's the Only Moral Option But I don't want to express financial approval toward furry sex weirds, either. That's not moral. There will probably be a good movie to pay for instead of Cats
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Nov 26, 2019 21:16
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QuarkJets posted:The Disney movies are objectively better films than the prequels Rogue One and Solo, yes. The main episodes, no.
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Nov 26, 2019 21:19
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QuarkJets posted:But I don't want to express financial approval toward furry sex weirds, either. That's not moral. There will probably be a good movie to pay for instead of Cats I don't think there will be any good movies, so it may as well be cats, the funniest option. I hope for you to be right but don't expect it
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Nov 26, 2019 21:21
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Not one Disney Wars movie is better even than Phantom Menace.
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Nov 26, 2019 21:22
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No Star Wars film is worse than Attack of the Clones. Even if we count the Holiday Special and the Clone Wars movie where they have to save a flamboyantly gay relative of Jabba the Hutt.
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Nov 26, 2019 21:22
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the Orb of Zot posted:How come hype for episode 9 is so low? Even the prequel trilogy still had a ton of hype behind it. I almost entirely blame the Last Jedi. Legions of critics trying to defend the Last Jedi even though its a terrible movie and the subsequent internet shitstorm killed the interest for the fairweather audience who now just think Star Wars isn't for them. The cast and crew scapegoating their fanbase and endlessly attacking them for their TLJ reactions turned away a large portion of the fanbase who now actively want Disney to fail. The reaction to TLJ was so bad it killed Solo's chances at the box office, but Disney keeps blaming literally anything else and hoping the malaise goes away instead of doing anything, and here we are.
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Nov 26, 2019 21:24
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Chomp8645 posted:Rogue One and Solo, yes. The main episodes, no. The main episodes included. That's how bad the prequels are. You're letting nostalgia influence your feelings on the matter, but those movies were baaaaaaaad, all of them were easily the worst in the franchise, no contest.
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Nov 26, 2019 21:27
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Revenge of the Sith is a much better movie than Return of the Jedi. Search your feelings, you know it to be true.
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Nov 26, 2019 21:28
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Chomp8645 posted:Rogue One and Solo, yes. The main episodes, no. I think that is extremely arguable/straight up not true when it comes to TFA - it's a completely creatively bankrupt reprise of A New Hope, but it still is engaging as a popcorn action movie and does a good job getting you to care about its characters, which is not something the prequels ever managed to accomplish obviously people value ambition vs. execution differently, but the prequels were dire LGD fucked around with this message at 21:30 on Nov 26, 2019 |
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Nov 26, 2019 21:28
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QuarkJets posted:The Disney movies are objectively better films than the prequels lol not even close. the prequels flow together with the original movies and make for a coherent story arc. i remember coming out of the theater after seeing episode III and thinking to myself how well it flows directly into ANH. the Disney movies are the exact opposite, they do not feel like they are connected to the old movies at all. they got all of the old actors, but never used them for anything. if they wanted to continue the story from episode I-VI they should have been focusing very heavily on Luke and what he is up to. they went to the trouble to hire mark hamil, but made him an unimportant side character. its doesn't flow into the narrative of the first six movies. all the poo poo that should have been a part of Star Wars VII happened off-screen!
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Nov 26, 2019 21:30
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skasion posted:Revenge of the Sith is a much better movie than Return of the Jedi. Search your feelings, you know it to be true. This post illustrates why the forums have a no-drunkposts rule
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Nov 26, 2019 21:31
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skasion posted:Not one Disney Wars movie is better even than Phantom Menace.
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Nov 26, 2019 21:31
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Rutibex posted:lol not even close. the prequels flow together with the original movies and make for a coherent story arc. i remember coming out of the theater after seeing episode III and thinking to myself how well it flows directly into ANH. lmao 
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Nov 26, 2019 21:33
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skasion posted:Revenge of the Sith is a much better movie than Return of the Jedi. Search your feelings, you know it to be true. This is incredibly false. If Clones and Phantom Menace didn't exist, Sith would be the worst one, and it probably has the worst 15-segment of all of them (the opening aboard the ship, it's loving awful). Rutibex posted:lol not even close. the prequels flow together with the original movies and make for a coherent story arc. i remember coming out of the theater after seeing episode III and thinking to myself how well it flows directly into ANH. Sith rushes to put everything into place for ANH everything is set up and everyone goes exactly where they are at the beginnin gof ANH (which is supposed to be 20 years later), it is lazy, hack writing. Is everyone on crazy pills? Randarkman fucked around with this message at 21:42 on Nov 26, 2019 |
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Nov 26, 2019 21:38
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LGD posted:lmao but the camp is the best part of the prequels. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sg14jNbBb-8
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Nov 26, 2019 21:38
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Randarkman posted:Sith rushes to put everything into place for ANH everything is set up and everyone goes exactly where they are at the beginnin gof ANH, it is lazy, hack writing. that or trolling the prequel trilogy's entire set-up for the OT ultimately boils down to a couple of "oh poo poo, we forgot to actually do any of that didn't we?" exposition heavy scenes at the end of sith that do not arise organically from or relate to anything that came before, and are as you say, about as hacky and on-the-nose as humanly possible e: I *do* agree that camp is easily the best part of the prequel trilogy, but the reason it works as camp (like almost all real camp) is because it's almost entirely unintentional - the prequels are not actually good movies in almost any respect LGD fucked around with this message at 21:49 on Nov 26, 2019 |
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Nov 26, 2019 21:43
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Randarkman posted:Sith rushes to put everything into place for ANH everything is set up and everyone goes exactly where they are at the beginnin gof ANH (which is supposed to be 20 years later), it is lazy, hack writing.
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Nov 26, 2019 21:44
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Randarkman posted:Sith rushes to put everything into place for ANH everything is set up and everyone goes exactly where they are at the beginnin gof ANH (which is supposed to be 20 years later), it is lazy, hack writing. Creepio: Aaaah! What's happening? Rupert the Rebuilt Authentic Redneck Robot: Don't ask me! Creepio: How could you be so calm while this place falls apart around us? I envy your resolve, Fartoo. Look at you, cool as a cucumber! You actually look sort of like a cucumber, Fartoo. What is this place? It seems oddly familiar. Fartoo: ***** Creepio: What do you mean we've been here 19 years? That's preposterous! Who would believe that? Creepio: Fartoo, did you ditch me? Creepio: Fartoo! You shouldn't run off like that! You know I don't like large crowds. Fartoo: ****** Creepio: You're the ice breaker. And, apparently, I'm suffering from crippling amnesia! It's not safe to leave me alone!
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Nov 26, 2019 21:46
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i'm not saying its high art. i'm just saying it was clear more thought went into making the prequels a cohesive arc than whatever they hell is going on with Disney
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Nov 26, 2019 21:48
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I'm not trying to build a narrative blaming the perfidious celestial or anything, but it would be interesting to plot the expansion everything being a low effort "safe" sequel/reboot with the expansion of the percentage of grosses contributed by foreign box office where you're not just trying to appeal across generations and incomes and demographics but entire cultures (while appeasing censors and sensitivities) ; flattening everything down to sheer spectacle.
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Nov 26, 2019 21:51
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Rutibex posted:i'm not saying its high art. i'm just saying it was clear more thought went into making the prequels a cohesive arc than whatever they hell is going on with Disney Lucas really tried with Phantom Menace and exhausted himself with it, then it turned out the movie was a terrible, incoherent mess (seriously watch the behind the scenes documentary about Phantom Menace, it's disturbingly honest, especially the stuff when Lucas is talking to the editor and others after an early screening) and critics and many others decried it as a terrible movie. I think this really disheartened Lucas. But it made alot of money, so they really had to continue doing them and Lucas was probably too proud to get someone else to do them (unlike ANH he couldn't hand it off on a positive note from a writing/directorial standpoint), but he was also disheartened and tired from the whole thing so he phoned in the next two on a soundstage with a green screen and with the last one he remembered it had to tie in with ANH so he played connect the dots with plot points when writing the script. This is 100% what happened.
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Nov 26, 2019 21:57
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Rutibex posted:i'm not saying its high art. i'm just saying it was clear more thought went into making the prequels a cohesive arc than whatever they hell is going on with Disney well yes, because there was a unified "creative vision," it's just that that vision was incredibly stupid, incredibly hacky, and unimaginably poorly executed the mainline Disney films by contrast have one film that sets up what was to be a cohesive arc (albeit a likely hacky one) reasonably competently, and then a second film that tears down that arc and smears all nearby surfaces with feces actually that reminds me - I really think one of the most damaging things TLJ did was make the first order the empire again for no reason (which is about as hacky and derivative a move as they come) most of the worldbuilding and plot TFA set up was pretty rote, but having space-north-korea nuking space-new-york-and-washington-dc was a jumping off point for a much more interesting sequel than we got e: Owlbear Camus posted:I'm not trying to build a narrative blaming the perfidious celestial or anything, but it would be interesting to plot the expansion everything being a low effort "safe" sequel/reboot with the expansion of the percentage of grosses contributed by foreign box office where you're not just trying to appeal across generations and incomes and demographics but entire cultures (while appeasing censors and sensitivities) ; flattening everything down to sheer spectacle. there is definitely a trend in the wider industry away from certain genres and budget levels in favor of big safe spectacles, but Star Wars specifically is a funny case because the Chinese do not like the franchise and it does low box office numbers there - they don't have residual nostalgia, and without that the new Star Wars films come across as extremely sub-par even by the standards of spectacle-driven lowest-common-denominator films LGD fucked around with this message at 22:02 on Nov 26, 2019 |
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Nov 26, 2019 21:57
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LGD posted:lmao Of all the things that Lucas didnt go back to fix this is the one that baffles me the most. It's so bad. Also the prequels are better than the sequels simply because they're at least more interesting movies. In terms of film making yes the sequels are better but they're generic, no one will remember or care about TFA or TLJ in 20 years time, the same way no one will really give a poo poo about a lot of the marvel movies (we'll have new marvel movies at that point for people to invest in and the current ones will be forgotten about) but the prequels are at least interesting from a stylistic point of view and with a lot more memorable moments, even if a lot of those moments are terrible.
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Nov 26, 2019 21:59
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Look, both trilogies are terrible in ways very different from one another. I don't think it's worthwhile to compare them since they have so little in common
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Nov 26, 2019 22:03
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Just Chamber posted:Of all the things that Lucas didnt go back to fix this is the one that baffles me the most. It's so bad. This is only really true of Phantom Menace. There is almost no style to II and III other than how lazy and dull they are. I loving dare you to sit through them again without access to your phone. And the same really goes for Phantom Menace, as much of an incoherent trainwreck as it is, it is still way too dull to actually be interesting to watch (though it is interesting to talk about). Kazak posted:Look, both trilogies are terrible in ways very different from one another. I don't think it's worthwhile to compare them since they have so little in common The sequels are hardly worth discussing. They're just corporate sci-fi action dreck with the Star Wars stamp on them. And they'd be as forgettable as... Ant Man or the Total Recall remake if it wasn't for that. The prequels are interesting to discuss, but if you've gotten to the point where you think they are interesting to watch, well then you are lost. Randarkman fucked around with this message at 22:07 on Nov 26, 2019 |
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Nov 26, 2019 22:04
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Serious question: Relative quality of the movies they live in aside, is there any single shot, sequence, or image the prequels as visually stylish, striking, and daring as the Holdo Suicide Jump? Like, I'm wracking my brain and it's just showing me a montage of people in robes doing walk and talks, Oprah-like 2 camera shot-reverse-shot sit and talks, workmanlike action sequences and effects shots, and really cluttered and visually overwhelming scenes where 100 people with lightsabers charge at robots or a million ships shoot lasers at each other. And rubbery CGI work that aged terribly. I still remember how they held it up as a point of pride that they didn't build a single practical trooper costume for AotC. The only thing coming to mind as close to actually having some risk and aesthetic artistry are the shots where Anikan and Dooku duel in semi-darkness lit by the sabers?
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Nov 26, 2019 22:12
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LGD posted:actually that reminds me - I really think one of the most damaging things TLJ did was make the first order the empire again for no reason (which is about as hacky and derivative a move as they come) this is the kind of poo poo i mean when i say it doesn't flow into the other stories. the prequels at the very least explain how the republic became the empire. episode 7 was incoherent from a world-building perspective and a character arc perspective. they made zero effort to explain the first order, why it exists, why the new republic doesn't have a military, who the gently caress Snope is, anything. all that stuff might be forgiven if it paid off in episode 8, but it was clear that wasn't the case. it wasn't episode 8 that ruined Disney star wars, episode 7 was lovely from the start. episode 8 just made it clear that things were not going to be getting better.
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Nov 26, 2019 22:13
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From a technical movie making stand point yeah ST > PT very easily. For me though I ultimately hold the Prequels in higher regard. Part of that is nostalgia no doubt - even when something is garbage nostalgia finds a way - but for me the biggest issue with the sequels is I actively feel like I'm being commercially exploited. Yeah Lucas made loving bank off merch, but that was never his primary goal. R2-D2 and C3-PO weren't designed to be toys: they were designed to be weird future droids to help drive the setting home. The toys came organically after the fact. BB-8 meanwhile is so painfully designed by committee to appeal to as many people as possible so it can be shilled in every possible toy form that it's insulting. There are scenes in both TFA and TLJ where I can close my eyes and picture the meeting where a Disney exec taps the script in front of him and goes "yeah this is fine, but there's not enough in here I'm seeing we could make into toys. How about adding some cute CGI creatures?" The Prequels suck rear end but they were made because Lucas had the time, money, and desire to bring his weird hosed up version of Anakin's backstory to life, the Sequels also suck and were made because Disney wants to make as much money as possible.
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Nov 26, 2019 22:13
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this is like debating whether you'd rather eat a sandwich filled with regular poop or a sandwich full of diarrhea
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Nov 26, 2019 22:15
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I'm sorry, haven't storm troopers been using jetpacks for decades now? Why is it being treated as a new thing?
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Nov 26, 2019 22:15
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I think everyone was expecting Episode 8 to explain that poo poo, but they just *checks notes* let the past die.
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Nov 26, 2019 22:16
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Sydin posted:From a technical movie making stand point yeah ST > PT very easily. For me though I ultimately hold the Prequels in higher regard. Part of that is nostalgia no doubt - even when something is garbage nostalgia finds a way - but for me the biggest issue with the sequels is I actively feel like I'm being commercially exploited. Yeah Lucas made loving bank off merch, but that was never his primary goal. R2-D2 and C3-PO weren't designed to be toys: they were designed to be weird future droids to help drive the setting home. The toys came organically after the fact. BB-8 meanwhile is so painfully designed by committee to appeal to as many people as possible so it can be shilled in every possible toy form that it's insulting. There are scenes in both TFA and TLJ where I can close my eyes and picture the meeting where a Disney exec taps the script in front of him and goes "yeah this is fine, but there's not enough in here I'm seeing we could make into toys. How about adding some cute CGI creatures?" You're having a laugh if you don't think a stupid amount of stuff was put into the prequels so they could be made into and sold as toys. Randarkman fucked around with this message at 22:20 on Nov 26, 2019 |
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Nov 26, 2019 22:17
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Randarkman posted:You're having a laugh if you don't think a stupid amount of stuff was put into the prequels so they could be made into and sold as toys. 
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Nov 26, 2019 22:19
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Randarkman posted:You're having a laugh if you don't think a stupid amount of stuff was put into the prequels so they could be made into and sold as toys. Look yes I'm aware that Jar Jar was the key to all of this and Lucas legit thought he was going to test and sell well with kids.
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Nov 26, 2019 22:19
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Owlbear Camus posted:Serious question: Relative quality of the movies they live in aside, is there any single shot, sequence, or image the prequels as visually stylish, striking, and daring as the Holdo Suicide Jump? Probably not. TLJ is mostly a pretty good-looking movie, it's just that the movie is kind of a mess and ultimately everything that happens in it is service of nothing. Sydin posted:Look yes I'm aware that Jar Jar was the key to all of this and Lucas legit thought he was going to test and sell well with kids. Jar Jar is the least of it.
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Nov 26, 2019 22:20
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My 3 year old kid is really into Star Wars right now and I put Episode 1 on for him since I haven't seen it in 20 years and we watched all the other ones a bunch of times, he said JarJar was a dope, asked where Darth Vader was, and got up and wandered off during the extended scenes about tariffs and trade negotiations. I asked him where he was going, he told me it was boring. Now every time he asks to watch Star Wars its followed by "but not the boring one."
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Nov 26, 2019 22:23
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Rutibex posted:lol not even close. the prequels flow together with the original movies and make for a coherent story arc. i remember coming out of the theater after seeing episode III and thinking to myself how well it flows directly into ANH. The end of Episode 3 places characters where they need to be in 18-20 years in order for Episode 4 to happen. That's the level of excellence achievable by a fanfiction author. Beyond putting characters in their specific places and basically stating that nothing will happen for the next 20 years, there's almost no flow of narrative between one trilogy and the next, in fact the trilogies are frequently at odds with each other. Anakin becomes a loud evil rear end in a top hat who kills children and fellates the emperor, which runs opposite to the OT's portrayal of Darth Vader as a silent badass with his own agenda who is also redeemable. Imagine a single line of Anakin's dialog being used in A New Hope; you can't, because that would be too stupid for the human imagination. Yoda's words and actions throughout the prequels run counter to almost every line of spoken dialog that he has in the OT, bar none. Obi-Wan decides to "hide" Darth Vader's son by giving him to Darth Vader's stepbrother, who still lives in Darth Vader's home town, it's completely idiotic. Do we even need to discuss the inconsistencies in R2-D2's from one trilogy to the next? And seemingly in less than 20 years the entire galaxy has forgotten that the jedi or the force even exist, even though the Jedi played a major role in the huge galactic war that just ended; in the OT people openly question the capabilities of Darth Vader right to his face and guys who have been around the block like Han Solo say that it's all fake. That'd be like if everyone in 1960 forgot that Pearl Harbor happened, it's nuts. Did you bump your head after watching episodes 7 and 8? The original trilogy characters aren't the only main characters but they are central and important to those movies. Han and Chewie are main characters in TFA. Luke is a main character in TLJ. Overall, the narrative isn't good but it's at least better than the incongruent mess going on in the prequels. The imperial remnant is at least as well-explained as the trade federation, in that it's basically not explained at all. The new trilogy has Hux show up in TFA to make it clear that he's a Space Fascist with New Death Star, which is more than can be said for General Grievous. Even Kylo has some sort of narrative and internal conflict going on; that can't be said for Count Dooku, who just shows up out of nowhere and seemingly has no motivation or reason to be in these movies.
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Nov 26, 2019 22:25
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Rutibex posted:this is the kind of poo poo i mean when i say it doesn't flow into the other stories. the prequels at the very least explain how the republic became the empire. episode 7 was incoherent from a world-building perspective and a character arc perspective. they made zero effort to explain the first order, why it exists, why the new republic doesn't have a military, who the gently caress Snope is, anything. all that stuff might be forgiven if it paid off in episode 8, but it was clear that wasn't the case. A New Hope didn't explain any of that poo poo either, nor does TPM - as we've discussed, the "flow" you're talking about largely happens in the last part of the last movie in the prequel trilogy and it is not remotely well executed not everything needs to be explained in excruciating detail - i.e. after the death of the emperor it makes total sense that the galaxy would have one or more militaristic imperial rump states as well as a nascent and politically shaky new republic (among other political organizations), and we're not given any indication that the republic doesn't have a military (it presumably has a government as well and we don't see that either), because we're concerned with Leia's group of hardliners oh yeah and multiple decades of life happened to everyone from the OT unexplained stuff like that (inc. Snoke, and what exactly happened between Ben Solo and Luke that hosed everything up) is supposed to create mysteries, questions, and story hooks that can be filled in later (or not), similar to things like the Kessel run in ANH - when taken on its own merits TFA actually does a decent job setting a potentially expansive and flexible stage that gave the franchise a lot of directions to go moving forward (while being absurdly safe and derivative in itself), as well as new characters we're potentially interested in seeing having new adventures TLJ just loving annihilates all of that, shrinks the scale and scope to an absurd degree, and butchers the characterization of people from the OT, but that's because TLJ is an exceptionally bad movie, not because TFA is inherently "incoherent" LGD fucked around with this message at 22:42 on Nov 26, 2019 |
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Nov 26, 2019 22:30
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I liked when Yoda met chewie before going back to his home planet. That was cool, well executed, and not at all completely unnecessary and jarring
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Nov 26, 2019 22:31
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