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xtothez posted:I almost think that the next leader needs to be 'disposable' in a sense. With 4+ years to go, anyone picked next will be constantly attacked and smeared until their personal popularity is no better than Corbyn's before the next election. Step forward Jess Phillips...
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Dec 13, 2019 15:03
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Truniht posted:I don’t think calling a racist a racist is problematic That goes under the assumption that everyone who's got a bad thing to say about free movement of peoples do it for xenophobic reasons. That is why labour can't win in an EU election. He had a fair point you know. Or what, are you gonna call all those unenlightened yellow vest plebs in France deplorables too?
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Dec 13, 2019 15:03
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Omobono posted:gently caress off rear end in a top hat, people will die BECAUSE of Johnson. Considering the hard right's ascent as an opportunity to kill the "hard left" is loving goulish. No, they're not. The hard left alienate centrist voters, who are necessary to get enough votes to actually get into power. There's no point in being political if you can't change anything, so you need the votes.
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Dec 13, 2019 15:04
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It wasn’t all bad news for you chaps. https://twitter.com/s8mb/status/1205453909160054784?s=21
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Dec 13, 2019 15:04
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But the guardian said tactical voting would work?!?
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Dec 13, 2019 15:05
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hemale in pain posted:they probably mostly didn't vote? it be interesting to see the % of voter turnout this time, epecially for young people. turnout -1.5% overall but very interested to see the demographics of that, certainly seems like the strategy of targeting zoomers whiffed though
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Dec 13, 2019 15:06
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Postorder Trollet89 posted:That goes under the assumption that everyone who's got a bad thing to say about free movement of peoples do it for xenophobic reasons. That is why labour can't win in an EU election. What immigration? Britain is like the EU equivalent of Ohio but worse weather. Who the gently caress wants to immigrate to Ohio?
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Dec 13, 2019 15:07
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namesake posted:That's dumb as hell. Good rebuttal, well argued zhar posted:turnout -1.5% overall but very interested to see the demographics of that, certainly seems like the strategy of targeting zoomers whiffed though Waiting to see the figures, my theory is that it worked but under 30's simply weren't a big enough demographic to make up for all the middle-aged voters staying home.
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Dec 13, 2019 15:08
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tentish klown posted:No, they're not. The hard left alienate centrist voters, who are necessary to get enough votes to actually get into power. There's no point in being political if you can't change anything, so you need the votes.
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Dec 13, 2019 15:09
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I’m still not clear what the Labour brexit policy was, so maybe that’s an issue
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Dec 13, 2019 15:10
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someone on twitter used the term "Disaster Nationalism" to describe the problem and it is loving fantastic in its precision
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Dec 13, 2019 15:10
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Truniht posted:What immigration? Britain is like the EU equivalent of Ohio but worse weather. Who the gently caress wants to immigrate to Ohio? Almost 15% of The UK population is foreign born.
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Dec 13, 2019 15:11
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namesake posted:That's dumb as hell. It actually sounds pretty sensible. They'll smear whoever you put up there, but smears do take time to take hold. So whoever goes up now if you replace them in time for the next election with someone untarnished but willing and able to carry the torch onwards in the correct direction then how is that not better?
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Dec 13, 2019 15:11
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Thanks Guardian Truniht posted:What immigration? Britain is like the EU equivalent of Ohio but worse weather. Who the gently caress wants to immigrate to Ohio? Hi there
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Dec 13, 2019 15:11
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centrists love talking about left wing purity tests but they're the ones who demand it lol
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Dec 13, 2019 15:11
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xtothez posted:Good rebuttal, well argued ok i'll bite. this time last year tmay was supposed to be safe from a leadership challenge for exactly 1 year. politics is highly unpredictable. the idea you can maneuver someone in and out as leader is complete fantasy, and the benefits would be slight. the party would be in a state of disarray at a potentially vital time as the handover occurred and the media would just churn out new hit pieces inside 24hrs anyway other parties keep a file on all the senior members of the party for exactly this reason.
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Dec 13, 2019 15:13
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Truniht posted:What immigration? Britain is like the EU equivalent of Ohio but worse weather. Who the gently caress wants to immigrate to Ohio? Maybe you're just being obtuse, or whatever. But seriously, unless you are a born urban resident with a marketable college degree you have ZERO upward mobility in the modern west, barring luck and circumstance. Gaining access to an education and good jobs without uprooting yourself completely is almost impossible with present day infrastructure realities. This is a problem.
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Dec 13, 2019 15:13
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Pochoclo posted:Thanks Guardian my god like my god why Denial isn't just a river in Egypt, etc
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Dec 13, 2019 15:13
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Jose posted:centrists love talking about left wing purity tests but they're the ones who demand it lol The thing I find so mystifying about the "purity tests" complaint is that... do people think the right doesn't do purity tests? That all their candidates have just gotten more and more extreme over time by accident?
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Dec 13, 2019 15:14
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Pochoclo posted:Thanks Guardian Lol this reminds me of when I actually said to myself, “maybe now that he’s won, Trump will just be happy and be more of a New York Democrat”
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Dec 13, 2019 15:14
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MikeCrotch posted:This thread doesn't NEED horniness for elected members of parliament Dream bigger, comrade, we can have both If any of you cowards will own up to your own labour horniness that is
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Dec 13, 2019 15:16
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Aidan_702 posted:Lol this reminds me of when I actually said to myself, “maybe now that he’s won, Trump will just be happy and be more of a New York Democrat” I think a lot of liberal America thought that "Oh he'll mellow and be presidential now" Lol if anything he's worse now than during the campaign
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Dec 13, 2019 15:16
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The Cheshire Cat posted:The thing I find so mystifying about the "purity tests" complaint is that... do people think the right doesn't do purity tests? That all their candidates have just gotten more and more extreme over time by accident? the conservatives become more and more lunatic but god forbid if we decide to bolshevik things up a little
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Dec 13, 2019 15:17
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His Divine Shadow posted:Don't forget the urban/rural divide, which as a result of globalization has deepened considerably. In my experience, there are rural people with leftist ideals and they don't feel the modern left represents them. It's travel, city, urban that are the big identifiers for leftism (according to them). Traditionally, over here that's the Lib Dem base.
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Dec 13, 2019 15:17
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MikeCrotch posted:Each seat you win over 326 is one less MP who can vote against you as well Thanks, it was indeed me being thick then. I had forgotten what "majority" actually meant
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Dec 13, 2019 15:17
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tentish klown posted:No, they're not. The hard left alienate centrist voters, who are necessary to get enough votes to actually get into power. There's no point in being political if you can't change anything, so you need the votes. everything is hosed due to the massive consolidation of wealth into a tiny fraction of ppl, how do you fix that without challenging those ppl? you can be as broad brush inoffensive centrist as you like as soon as you threaten that wealth they will gun for you. the old center used to say well we'll all grow together, so inequality will still exist but we'll all be getting richer so it wont matter. but since 2008 we've all been getting poorer and the line is now just the naked truth that the rich are rich and that's the way it's going to stay. we'd all love to hear any solutions to this frankly.
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Dec 13, 2019 15:17
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Liberal America is dumb as hell and they deserve Trump. We also deserve the next 4 years of him that we will get.
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Dec 13, 2019 15:18
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but the left demands ideological purity https://twitter.com/Fab_Newt/status/1205488224417783808?s=20
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Dec 13, 2019 15:20
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My feeling about the best case scenario for Labour. Brexit is enough of a mess/hurt on the economy that the Tories are decimated in 2024 (and have no hiding place due to their majority) Labour/Libs/SNP(if they are even still in the UK) have enough MPs to form some sort of Frankenstein coalition They get the loving electoral system changed asap to some form of PR. The days of a majority, true left-wing Labour government are gone and will never happen again. By 2024 the Tories will have been in power for 32 out of 45 years. Forcing coalitions to moderate them is the best-case scenario. If and when Scotland leaves the UK it will just make the Tories stronger. IMO.
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Dec 13, 2019 15:21
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Unironically, I think free state owned broadband (which in abstract is a good policy) was the sort of policy that put people off. When you're already trying to convince a skeptical electorate that we can nationalise power, water, transport etc, broadband is the sort of thing that comes across as frivolous and undercuts how serious you are about the rest of it. I'm absolutely not suggesting free broadband is why labour lost this election, but I think it's symptomatic of over-stretching the manifesto.
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Dec 13, 2019 15:24
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Jel Shaker posted:I’m still not clear what the Labour brexit policy was, so maybe that’s an issue Same, in fact most people I know who were voting labour either did it because their families did it or because "they're not the Tories". I mean, fair enough, but that isn't going to convince people to get out of their chairs. Trying to pretend this wasn't the "Brexit" election was a stupid move by labour, too.
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Dec 13, 2019 15:24
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The more I think about it, the more convinced I am that the electorate voted for the Tories because they were the only British nationalist party in the race. Labour was insufficiently British and patriotic, led by an internationalist anti-British MP. They didn't care about the antisemitism bullshit and the threat of taking the country back to 1979. If anything, the fact that Corbyn was overtly socialist was the reason why Labour didn't lose even more in this election. No, they voted for the Tories because they were the only party that cared about opposing the EU elite and all that bullshit. It was raw, naked nationalism, and in the era of neonationalism, Boris was the only British nationalist in charge of a major party. I loving hate that I'm saying this, because I utterly despise nationalism, but if Labour wanted to win, they should have gone full Brexiteer in 2017. They should have married Corbyn with the Union Jack, presented him as the champion of English socialism who will make Britain great again under a nationalist, socialist government. No, if the Labour left wins the next leadership election, the leader should be just as jingoistic and patriotic towards England as Boris was, because that is the only way they're going to retake the English heartlands. Labour needs to be a party of left-wing English nationalists. God, I loving hate that.
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Dec 13, 2019 15:24
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Truniht posted:I don’t think calling a racist a racist is problematic Sure, but they have the exact same amount of voting power as a non racist.
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Dec 13, 2019 15:26
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I'm not sure that national socialism is the final solution to this problem, OP.
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Dec 13, 2019 15:27
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quote:make Britain great again under a nationalist, socialist government This applies to most of the English speaking world, and I'm in utter terror you're right. Jesus gently caress.
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Dec 13, 2019 15:29
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Truniht posted:What immigration? Britain is like the EU equivalent of Ohio but worse weather. Who the gently caress wants to immigrate to Ohio? Good Sir! I’ll have you know I immigrated to Ohio from Canada! I was 14 at the time tho...
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Dec 13, 2019 15:30
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Non-UK goon here wondering about context: I see people placing a lot of blame on Corbyn but very little mention of what appeared to be organized media campaign against him, such as BBC editing clips of Johnson to appear more palatable. Those instances seemed like a big deal in the leadup to the election but seems forgotten at this point. Given failure after failure from Tories it's just shocking they keep getting voted in, and I wonder how much of it is their politics and how much of it is shoddy campaign laws?
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Dec 13, 2019 15:30
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feedmegin posted:I'm not sure that national socialism is the final solution to this problem, OP. Corbyn should have stopped being on the fence with regards to anti-semitism and promise pogroms. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Dec 13, 2019 15:31
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Nenonen posted:Corbyn should have stopped being on the fence with regards to anti-semitism and promise pogroms. It is a straightforward position that is easy to understand and chant about
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Dec 13, 2019 15:33
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Venomous posted:I loving hate that I'm saying this, because I utterly despise nationalism, but if Labour wanted to win, they should have gone full Brexiteer in 2017. They should have married Corbyn with the Union Jack, presented him as the champion of English socialism who will make Britain great again under a nationalist, socialist government. If we're gonna compromise on ideals then I'd genuinely rather drop the socialism and go Blairite, than go nationalist But i see no reason to compromise. I'm gonna stay a Labour member, I'm gonna keep voting for leftist leaders and ideals, and voting labour, and campaigning for them, and if the public don't want it then OK. They will eventually.
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Dec 13, 2019 15:34
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