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SlowBloke posted:Shame it was a video call, if it was an in-person meet some chairs might have hit the uppity bastard. If only we could be so lucky. Seriously you wouldn't believe the sense of smug superiority dripping from every loving opinion piece and TV talking head when they talk about the healthcare situation in Italy compared to ours, or Italian culture compared to ours. When you know, if you look at OECD stats, Lombardy's healthcare is far superior to Dutch healthcare. It's infuriating.
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Mar 29, 2020 14:53
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Orange Devil posted:I apologize on behalf of my government, Italian and Spanish goons. They are ideologically committed neoliberals, and they lust for our suffering. Well, it was not totally unexpected but still mean.
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Mar 29, 2020 14:58
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TorakFade posted:Fine. But then people should not complain about not having money if they spend it in entertainment and vices, since no one is forcing them to do that and they're not primary needs Even leaving aside the lovely middle class tut tutting of poors not deserving to socialize or enjoy vices, let's go with what you say. What happens to the pub when they lose large numbers of customers when they take your advice? What happens to their employees, their suppliers? What happens when this is scaled up to every pub across the country? I don't understand how you're incapable of seeing the endgame of your suggestions when we're seeing it happen in realtime right loving now.
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Mar 29, 2020 19:21
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debt-financed consumption has been maybe the single biggest driver of economic growth in the west for the past ten years, if we didn't want that to be the case you'd have to stop doing dumbass austerity and wage discipline
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Mar 29, 2020 19:32
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Yeah if the government isn't willing to pile on debt somebody (or consumers) have to.
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Mar 29, 2020 20:25
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I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
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mila kunis posted:Even leaving aside the lovely middle class tut tutting of poors not deserving to socialize or enjoy vices, let's go with what you say. Please stop pretending that I said that no one should ever go to the pub. That's not it, and I made it plenty clear. I only said that those people that are complaining that they have no money, should take appropriate steps to have money, e.g. reduce their frivolous spending which is by far the best and easiest way to have more money. I know because I did it for many years, I'm no "middle class" man believe it or not. That's all, and you're all pretending to not understand it for some reason so I'll call it quits now 
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Mar 29, 2020 20:56
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TorakFade posted:Please stop pretending that I said that no one should ever go to the pub. That's not it, and I made it plenty clear. I only said that those people that are complaining that they have no money, should take appropriate steps to have money, e.g. reduce their frivolous spending which is by far the best and easiest way to have more money Good lord you're dense as hell.
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Mar 29, 2020 22:23
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their frivolous spending is what's holding the economy up, if they stop your business is gonna go down eventually because that poo poo spreads like wildfire
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Mar 29, 2020 22:35
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Well perhaps the government should make it illegal to have less than 10k euros on your bank account! Heya thread, sorry about my negligence. How are you all holding up?
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Mar 30, 2020 23:08
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i think torakfade's reaction to the world economy being utterly insane is basically reasonable, but it's filtered through a bit of bourgeois moralism which twists it up a lot the problem isn't that people are allowing themselves small luxuries instead of saving, it's that when you're working class there's basically no way to have a good time without spending money and you haven't enough money to both save and not kill yourself
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Mar 30, 2020 23:11
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Char posted:Well perhaps the government should make it illegal to have less than 10k euros on your bank account! si tira avanti anche se sto tossendo il mondo, grazie anche al dover andare in ufficio a far portatili per gente inutile. Poi se non fossimo invasi qua nella discussione da marxisti passanti a farci la predica ci guadagneremmo tutti in salute If you feel like seeing how the life in my area is https://covid19map.protezionecivile.fvg.it I'm in one of the two hotspots. SlowBloke fucked around with this message at 16:28 on Mar 31, 2020 |
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Mar 31, 2020 12:50
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Codroipo best anagram.
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Mar 31, 2020 13:19
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SlowBloke posted:si tira avanti anche se sto tossendo il mondo, grazie anche al dover andare in ufficio a far portatili per gente inutile. Poi se non fossimo invasi qua nella discussione da marxisti passanti a farci la predica ci guadagneremmo tutti in salute in parte ti capisco perché anche io sto ancora andando in ufficio. no self doxxing ma penso facciamo analogo lavoro in analoghe strutture. ma hai sintomi preoccupanti oltre a tosse? com'è la situazione nelle tue immediate vicinanze? Today, we got some leaks regarding the new "don't even think anything will go back to normal until" date. It's under discussion, but expect no changes until May 4th.
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Mar 31, 2020 13:28
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Char posted:in parte ti capisco perché anche io sto ancora andando in ufficio. no self doxxing ma penso facciamo analogo lavoro in analoghe strutture. ma hai sintomi preoccupanti oltre a tosse? com'è la situazione nelle tue immediate vicinanze? solo una tosse sconcertante, niente febbre o simili, ogni giorno è un tira e molla nei casi tra qui e Udine, un giorno siamo primi, un giorno siam secondi.... May 4th? Last time I've heard from Rome the date was the end of the month(if not July from other sources in MIUR) not the start.... SlowBloke fucked around with this message at 14:07 on Mar 31, 2020 |
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Mar 31, 2020 13:49
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Char posted:It's under discussion, but expect no changes until If the virus won't kill us off then madness will.
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Mar 31, 2020 14:10
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SlowBloke posted:solo una tosse sconcertante, niente febbre o simili, ogni giorno è un tira e molla nei casi tra qui e Udine, un giorno siamo primi, un giorno siam secondi.... Officially it's April 14th, but I don't think anyone "in the knows" is realistically considering such a short timeframe enough to partly lift our quarantine. Plus, I've seen at least once a mention of that date (May 4th), in ANSA and AGI reports. edit: well I guess also it depends on the numbers we'll see today. Each weekend so far had a dip in new cases. I think we're still hovering around new 5k cases, which means we're close to peaking. Char fucked around with this message at 14:28 on Mar 31, 2020 |
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Mar 31, 2020 14:23
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Char posted:Officially it's April 14th, but I don't think anyone "in the knows" is realistically considering such a short timeframe enough to partly lift our quarantine. I've just had some chat with high ranking management and they conferm July 31st as a valid MIUR estimate for end of lockdown. May is pretty much florida/texas level of optimism and few people seems to consider it a valid date if not for press/propaganda purposes.
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Mar 31, 2020 14:29
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SlowBloke posted:I've just had some chat with high ranking management and they conferm July 31st as a valid MIUR estimate for end of lockdown. May is pretty much florida/texas level of optimism and few people seems to consider it a valid date if not for press/propaganda purposes. I'm pessimist about May as well. Assuming we've reached peak new cases, we're more or less halfway there - another month and a half at least. For non-Italian readers, MIUR is the MInistry of University and Research. Char fucked around with this message at 14:51 on Mar 31, 2020 |
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Mar 31, 2020 14:41
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I doubt we'll be actually lifting most restrictions any earlier than 4th may if only for the fact that if they re-allow public circulation during holiday periods (easter weekend, 25th April, 1st May - which falls on a friday too), people will definitely bunch togheter for lunches, picnics, parties, trips to the sea/mountains, family gatherings etc which could mean restarting from step one sadly I hope that the government at least allows to gradually open industries, factories etc relatively quickly after easter so we don't plummet in an economic death spiral, but I wouldn't hold my breath for the reopening of shops, bars, hairdressers and so on (let alone allow everyone to walk around freely)
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Mar 31, 2020 16:57
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A sane response would be to re-allow non-strategic work while keeping some sort of lockdown in place(like the first stage of national lockdown) and if cases are still manageable lift the social restrictions, going straight to full unrestricted would mean going back to 1k+ deaths daily
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Mar 31, 2020 17:21
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Unsurprising, but current measures are extended until April 13th. The date of May 3th as the final quarantine day was mentioned, but unconfirmed: depending on the evolution of the situation, the target date will be chosen accordingly.
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Apr 1, 2020 19:34
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Disclaimer, this is an interview to our PM, it's in Italian, so it's mostly for Italians. https://www.facebook.com/GiuseppeConte64/videos/224226221990561/ Go to the last 3 minutes. Watch his emotional distress as he answers the last question. For once - and my words about this guy weren't really generous a couple years ago - I feel our PM is a decent human being. This is a very unusual and weird feeling. Loose translation, they're asking him if he remembers a moment where if he felt a hint of despair in the days after February. He mentions two specific instances: the first was the moment the government chose to enact the isolation of the first red zone, since it would've impacted basic individual rights... and he specifically mentions he's a lawyer specialized in Italian Constitutional right - he was going to remove rights to those living in the red zone, using methods comparable to what Italy used around the war, using methods that ended up being the very reason we wrote our Constitution. The second, when the death count started showing covid wasn't going to stop anytime soon. Char fucked around with this message at 00:57 on Apr 2, 2020 |
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Apr 2, 2020 00:12
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I think my views on Conte are kinda known at this point(an useful idiot to put in a required political role that couldn't be populated by one of the two stooges without a political crisis) but i feel like there is little to reprimand on his work for this emergency, maybe just an excessive heads up on the lockdown that meant every super-spreader in the country managed to go back home and deliver the virus nationally instead of just Lombardia/Romagna/Veneto. Lots of apparent reaction delays are due to these region governors wanting to not close down everything to avoid economical hits. If a region doesn't ask for emergency status, central government cannot do jack poo poo so a lot of blood is on the governors rather than Rome. I hope that we will be going to see a lot of changes on the government-region hierarchy after this, the regions as pseudo-states is a failed experiment, go back to the old model of just the five peripherals with some extra powers and the rest as subordinates. Letting everyone dictate how to react to a crisis when there is no trained/good actors is a suicide as the 10k deaths can attest to. Lot of companies or government agencies that relied on paper or physical contact have been dragged into the modern age so maybe we will see more items be full-digital. SlowBloke fucked around with this message at 09:53 on Apr 2, 2020 |
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Apr 2, 2020 09:49
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SlowBloke posted:I think my views on Conte are kinda known at this point(an useful idiot to put in a required political role that couldn't be populated by one of the two stooges without a political crisis) but i feel like there is little to reprimand on his work for this emergency, maybe just an excessive heads up on the lockdown that meant every super-spreader in the country managed to go back home and deliver the virus nationally instead of just Lombardia/Romagna/Veneto. I'm not criticizing in any way his policies - I wouldn't be able to anyway - I'm just happy the useful idiot isn't a goddamn psychopath, like most law students, most tenured professors and most PMs are. The massive heads up... this government is still made of dilettantes, mostly. Yeah, I too think the quarter-measure federalism model has way more cons than pros.
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Apr 2, 2020 11:05
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Char posted:Yeah, I too think the quarter-measure federalism model has way more cons than pros. One glaring example is on how the protezione civile reacted, in some places they stayed idle until the corpses started piling up in others they were quick to act, honestly having similar structures working within the region envelopes instead of the state makes them too disparate in quality/materiel/training/etc. They should go back under the umbrella of the EI or the interior ministry. I dati aggregati son gestiti dalla protezione civile, in certi posti non ricevono nulla e non stanno a mandare la polizia a casa del sindaco per dargli la sveglia ma giusto mettono "non pervenuto", facendo si che ci siano zone grigie dove non si sa se siamo ai livelli della peste nera o son tutti sani. Certe regioni hanno scuderie di veicoli di risposta mobili e altri manco un ciao e così discorrendo. Serve che a livello nazionale ogni area abbia un tot di materiale e personale addestrato per km quadrato altrimenti stiamo sempre ad avere figli e figliastri. SlowBloke fucked around with this message at 12:32 on Apr 2, 2020 |
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Apr 2, 2020 11:49
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SlowBloke posted:One glaring example is on how the protezione civile reacted, in some places they stayed idle until the corpses started piling up in others they were quick to act, honestly having similar structures working within the region envelopes instead of the state makes them too disparate in quality/materiel/training/etc. They should go back under the umbrella of the EI or the interior ministry. Not just civil protection corps imo are the issue. I was watching Report a couple nights ago on the preparedness of Southern health infrastructure to the crisis and I actually got scared. I'm originally from a Southern region, and our infra is barely above developing-country levels. Federalism has made sure to offload all capacity in the north, and concurrent cuts in health care in the south have ensured that if Covid gets there there is nothing in place to prevent it being a total slaughter. PD leaders have been floating the idea of returning health care decisions in the hands of state through constitutional amendments. Hopefully that will be a first step. Overall we're seeing how regional emergency response is disunified and ranges from excellent to lacking. Not really an acceptable range to have.
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Apr 2, 2020 13:33
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mortons stork posted:Not just civil protection corps imo are the issue. I was watching Report a couple nights ago on the preparedness of Southern health infrastructure to the crisis and I actually got scared. I'm originally from a Southern region, and our infra is barely above developing-country levels. Federalism has made sure to offload all capacity in the north, and concurrent cuts in health care in the south have ensured that if Covid gets there there is nothing in place to prevent it being a total slaughter. I think most regional indicators show unacceptable ranges, but it hasn't been an issue so far, I guess. "Not having a baseline quality" can be applied to literally any service, regionally-speaking.
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Apr 2, 2020 14:11
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https://www.sportlegnano.it/2020/04/imprecazioni-e-bestemmie-scoperti-mentre-giocano-a-briscola-lungo-il-canale-villoresi/267042/ for non-italian speaking people, a bunch of elderly people snuck into a wood/park at the edge of a small village to play cards togheter, using various excuses with their own families to leave home; they got caught because they were yelling and cursing God so loudly that people heard them and called the police. TorakFade fucked around with this message at 09:49 on Apr 6, 2020 |
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Apr 6, 2020 09:46
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TorakFade posted:https://www.sportlegnano.it/2020/04/imprecazioni-e-bestemmie-scoperti-mentre-giocano-a-briscola-lungo-il-canale-villoresi/267042/ The same article shows an even better idiot that went in another town to fetch tradable stickers, who gives a gently caress about trading cards/stickers during a loving pandemic.
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Apr 6, 2020 09:54
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Let's see what's happening in PiemonteNextquotidiano posted:«Nobody has transferred or plans to transfer positive patients from hospitals to RSA[1]s. The idea is to employ new and unused structures ", Councilor for Health Luigi Icardi points out for days. But the text of the document, which more than two weeks after approval has not yet been published on official channels - "for technical reasons" explain by the Region - says exactly the opposite. So much so that the transfers have already begun, and only in the city of Turin there are at least eighty positive patients placed in a rest home. Turin hospice be like  [1] RSA: home for the elderly / hospice [2] CGIL, CISL, UIL, Fiascat: labor unions limaCAT fucked around with this message at 14:17 on Apr 10, 2020 |
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Apr 10, 2020 14:13
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limaCAT posted:Let's see what's happening in Piemonte Food for thought, RSA/RSSA are for people that cannot care for themselves(both) and are afflicted by heavy patologies, mostly psych issues(RSSA). It's not a medical facility, just hospitality/care to the lowest price(for the provider). The easiest hit article a journalist can do is to visit one and make a list of hague-grade crimes to the infirm there. The biggest social differentiator for an elderly person in Italy is not a mcmansion, is being able to not be put in a RSA/RSSA for their last days. If a major outbreak starts there i would expect staff to run away and letting old wither away like in spain/france.
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Apr 10, 2020 15:18
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A Tecnè poll is making the rounds on all right/centre-right aligned papers https://www.ilgiornale.it/news/politica/sondaggio-tecn-italiano-su-due-vorrebbe-litalia-fuori-dallue-1853377.html Apparently the dataset polled by Tecnè seems unhappy with the dutch/german wombo-combo. 20% jump in pro-euro exit answers.
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Apr 14, 2020 07:44
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SlowBloke posted:A Tecnè poll is making the rounds on all right/centre-right aligned papers Hah, like popular opinion would count for something. It took one referendum and almost 4 years besides some significant changes in governments to let UK get their way out, amidst wailing and crying and gnashing of teeth from those opposed to it (democracy can be a bitch when you're not on the majority's side), and the UK - as far as I know, but I'm no foreign politics expert - was always much less "tied" to other EU states what with having their own colonial empire, being an island, having less codependencies with other EU countries as far as importing/exporting goes etc also even if we made a referendum to give the people a choice, it might as well end up like the Greek bailout referendum in 2015 where the people voted "no please don't gently caress us over" and then the government hosed them over anyway  This pandemic has clearly shown what many already believed, that the EU is a union more in name than in fact, and when things aren't going well everyone is thinking of themselves first, which is ... not what I'd want from an union of states that should cooperate to achieve good results for everyone involved. Last thing to consider is that Italy is an exporter country, and for example both Germany and France have a LOT of factories and businesses relying on imports from Italy (nevermind how the rich will always want Armani clothes and Ferrari cars, or other luxury Italian stuff that is highly sought after all over Europe) so "Exitaly" or whatever it would be called wouldn't go great for everyone involved. So there's no real "interest" in the EU to letting Italy leave, and if they can't manipulate our politicians to keep the population sedated, they'll probably give up and finally treat us a little bit better see https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1267873/EU-Netherlands-Portugal-threat-Brussels-eurozone-coronavirus-corona-bonds-latest which is of course probably just gossip, but goes to show that it's not unthinkable to finally give a slap on the hand to the "important guys" up North in order to stop them from ruining everything
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Apr 14, 2020 08:19
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I'd prefer "Quitaly"
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Apr 14, 2020 08:23
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Hey guys! Phase 2 is coming. Nothing is going to change. Oh wait yes, someone will be able to return to work (but not the huge number of people that have their own retail shop, bar, bed&breakfast or restaurant and those that don't work in big important corporations or exporting industries, they can all still go gently caress themselves and use wishes and prayers to eat and pay bills. Retail ~should~ reopen 18 May, restaurants and bars 1 June and in both cases with extra rules that will reduce their customer base by a lot such as big social distancing, reduction on available seating spaces to eat, letting in only very few clients at a time and so on) and you can go visit your immediate family if they're in the same region. Mine isn't but hey, I probably wouldn't visit them anyway because I'm a bad person  Also we'll still need to carry papers that state the reason for leaving home, and many people are very very pissed off about it. I'm of two minds about all this, I mean it's time we start living again and finally the numbers look like they're actually going down rather than staying the same, but I'm also afraid that the slightest relaxation of rules (knowing Italians) will cause more cases, potentially a lot more cases and then we'll have to shutdown everything even worse. I guess we'll have to wait and see what happens a couple weeks after the 4th of May...
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Apr 27, 2020 10:52
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TorakFade posted:but I'm also afraid that the slightest relaxation of rules (knowing Italians) will cause more cases, potentially a lot more cases and then we'll have to shutdown everything even worse. I guess we'll have to wait and see what happens a couple weeks after the 4th of May... This is pretty much my line of thought at the moment. I understand people's desire for things to go back to normal already (I work in an elementary school as an external worker, so I'm hosed until September and I would love nothing more than to be able to work), but I think that human lives > economy at the moment. I don't think most of the people clamoring for everything to open again really grasp just how many more cases and deaths we risk if we did that.
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Apr 27, 2020 12:20
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TorakFade posted:Hey guys! Phase 2 is coming. Nothing is going to change. Oh wait yes, someone will be able to return to work (but not the huge number of people that have their own retail shop, bar, bed&breakfast or restaurant and those that don't work in big important corporations or exporting industries, they can all still go gently caress themselves and use wishes and prayers to eat and pay bills. Retail ~should~ reopen 18 May, restaurants and bars 1 June and in both cases with extra rules that will reduce their customer base by a lot such as big social distancing, reduction on available seating spaces to eat, letting in only very few clients at a time and so on) and you can go visit your immediate family if they're in the same region. Mine isn't but hey, I probably wouldn't visit them anyway because I'm a bad person A few corrections, papers are required if you go outside your town but in-town movement is now unrestricted and restaurants can open if they have take away options with riders or customers pick up(before then it was riders only). Not a big fan, the free and unrestricted in-town movement is going to kill people. Black Feather posted:This is pretty much my line of thought at the moment. I understand people's desire for things to go back to normal already (I work in an elementary school as an external worker, so I'm hosed until September and I would love nothing more than to be able to work), but I think that human lives > economy at the moment. I don't think most of the people clamoring for everything to open again really grasp just how many more cases and deaths we risk if we did that. Nobody I know is clamoring to go back to work, a lot of those noises are astroturfed by the factory owners to reopen their sites(and apparently they won). We are reopening factories with 260 daily deaths and 260 new contagions on a good day.... SlowBloke fucked around with this message at 15:09 on Apr 27, 2020 |
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Apr 27, 2020 15:05
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EDIT: Double post
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Apr 27, 2020 15:09
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SlowBloke posted:A few corrections, papers are required if you go outside your town but in-town movement is now unrestricted and restaurants can open if they have take away options with riders or customers pick up(before then it was riders only). I'm gonna need a source on this because every newspaper I read keeps reporting that movement is still mostly restricted and you'll still need to carry papers around with a new form (which, uh, why doesn't the police just carry those and make people compile them on the spot? I can't imagine the first option is any less risky, given you'd still be handing over documents to a police officer).
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Apr 27, 2020 16:03
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SlowBloke posted:A few corrections, papers are required if you go outside your town but in-town movement is now unrestricted and restaurants can open if they have take away options with riders or customers pick up(before then it was riders only). About the papers luckily it seems the new DPCM says that it's still required to only leave home for authorized reasons, just that authorized reasons will also be "going to visit family": https://www.ilgiornale.it/news/cronache/autocertificazione-necessaria-anche-4-maggio-non-liberi-1858295.html https://www.ilsussidiario.net/news/autocertificazione-fase-2-nuovo-modulo-spostamenti-quando-serve-e-cosa-cambia/2015192/ it's pretty clear that you can't move unless you have reasons (and thus by definition have to provide papers detailing those reasons), from the current draft of the DPCM, in rule n°1 : http://www.rainews.it/dl/rai24/documents/DPCM%2026%20aprile%202020.pdf but of course we'll have to see the actual official DPCM that will come out later this week. I know many people are saying that papers will not be needed in-town but I think it's just that everyone would just want to go out and are tired of all those rules (we had this already with the first lockdown protocols, everyone was saying that only moving from one town to another needed papers, but luckily it ended up being just their misguided hopes) true about the restaurants though, takeaway options can be added to delivery services but you will have to eat in your office or home, can't just loiter around the restaurant eating on the street with others... and just the fact that they had to specify this makes me very uncertain on how we'll all be able to handle this but at least, we have one glimmer of hope: it seems "family" includes also boyfriends/girlfriends even if you're not legally married https://www.repubblica.it/politica/...test-254997521/ so maybe people can finally have some sex and relax? E: about work I'm also convinced that it's 95% the will of powerful industrial factory owners, but it's not just that - many people have been brainwashed that "work above all" even their own life because ... reasons, so there's also many workers pushing for going back to work, it's their whole reason for living in some cases 
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Apr 27, 2020 16:10
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