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Tremek posted:Do you think M1 Garands made by International Harvester and IBM were built with exacting quality standards? Assembly lines were substantially different when this happened. I don't think most modern Ford factories have lathes and machinists sitting around. You want a machine shop for this stuff, not a fully automated factory designed to produce stamped body panels. We should be making Moog and Boeing do this poo poo and it's Musk's brain worms that started the dumb idea that the auto industry of all things was best equipped for this. KillHour fucked around with this message at 02:41 on Apr 11, 2020 |
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Apr 11, 2020 02:36
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also the rifles accepted by the army were in fact made to the same standard
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Apr 11, 2020 02:38
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I feel like this is a good explanation of why building a ventilator is more complicated than "Just build an air pump dum dum" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vLPefHYWpY&t=827s
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Apr 11, 2020 02:47
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:also the rifles accepted by the army were in fact made to the same standard Also it's June 1941 and the Corona-Wehrmacht is already at the gates of Kiev while Donald Stalin only realized 2 weeks ago that the war has started after dismissing months of obvious warnings as some hoax. Throatwarbler fucked around with this message at 03:06 on Apr 11, 2020 |
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Apr 11, 2020 03:03
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quote:it's interesting that you can almost always tell software people and hardware people apart Yes. Funny that. Tremek posted:Nope, this is how you get more people unnecessarily dying with that mindset. Please design and build a cutting machine that accuratly cuts 230mm with a 4 ton roll of tube input. Because unless you havethousands of trained workers, that your problem for mass production. And that just before a whole bunch of other issues. Also WWII actually DID have hundreds of thousands of trained workers Foundary and machineshop was basic blue collar, not hard to switch a foundry worker from car engine blocks to.. uhhh.... tank engine blocks. And uhhhh....... oh poo poo there's no skilled workforce in assembling ventelators? Whoops.
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Apr 11, 2020 03:43
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KillHour posted:Assembly lines were substantially different when this happened. I don't think most modern Ford factories have lathes and machinists sitting around. You want a machine shop for this stuff, not a fully automated factory designed to produce stamped body panels. We should be making Moog and Boeing do this poo poo and it's Musk's brain worms that started the dumb idea that the auto industry of all things was best equipped for this. nah bro just like reprogram the machines or something https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8t8Go5dZ2A The "all you need is someone with VISION to just make it happen!" attitude is so adorably quaint it never gets old
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Apr 11, 2020 04:06
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A World War 2 firearm is made out of wood and metal. So are ventilators I guess??
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Apr 11, 2020 04:18
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KillHour posted:Assembly lines were substantially different when this happened. I don't think most modern Ford factories have lathes and machinists sitting around. You want a machine shop for this stuff, not a fully automated factory designed to produce stamped body panels. We should be making Moog and Boeing do this poo poo and it's Musk's brain worms that started the dumb idea that the auto industry of all things was best equipped for this. lmao at getting boeing to do it they buy most of their parts too, just like ford and GM, but some stuff is made in-house
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Apr 11, 2020 04:35
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As others have stated, automotive companies are all about efficient volume production. The techniques suited to efficient volume production (stamping, injection molding, extrusion, casting) all have tooling design and build requirements before they can produce parts. This process can be accelerated, especially if a design package is already available, but building tooling still takes time. So does adapting production equipment to making different types of components and sourcing materials to make those components. Sure there are substitutions that could be made from existing stock, but that requires design and testing. Also as others have stated all automotive manufacturers rely on deep and complex supply chains so they may not have the capability in-house to make some of the types of components required for ventilators.
Disgruntled Bovine fucked around with this message at 05:04 on Apr 11, 2020 |
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Apr 11, 2020 05:01
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Guns are super simple. Just a predictable mass of steel and something to contain air pressure. Making an accurate barrel is probably the most difficult part. If you already have a bunch of good springs then you're mostly done. If you were motivated, you could make a simple blowback 9mm from spare parts in any machine shop in an afternoon. The BAR was really not much more complicated than that.
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Apr 11, 2020 12:07
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ExplodingSims posted:I feel like this is a good explanation of why building a ventilator is more complicated than "Just build an air pump dum dum" I haven't paid attention to these but watched this and I was going to say that their heart is in the right place but the corporations that "invent" these are just doing it for the exposure. As said in the video, pretty much all of these are useless and will likely cause damage.
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Apr 11, 2020 13:56
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Usual suspects missing the point entirely, not shocking, rename this thread forest for the trees and it would be accurate. But yes auto mfrs. building ventilators probably isn’t the right target. The connection here is wartime production for disposable items. Garands weren’t expected to come back from the front. E: FP-45 Liberator ventilators, happier now autists? There are basic bitch commercial ventilators out there for well under a grand that don’t have to be super fancy. Ex: $749. https://www.boundtree.com/Oxygen-Equipment/Ventilators/Portable-Ventilator-Non-Returnable-and-Non-Cancelable-/p/LSPEPV200 “Weather-resistant and will run up to 48 hours on two D cell batteries” $489: https://www.usamedicalsurgical.com/portable-ventilator-epv100/ Those are both gas controlled which should work great in hospitals with supplies on the walls. Sorry to bust the collective MAKING THINGS IS HARD bubble but that thing has the internals of a couple Dustbusters and a fraction of the computational capability of a Raspberry Pi. And - yes - a LOT of testing and FDA approval etc - and that’s mostly what makes these things expensive, making sure they work and don’t kill people over the long run. Kinda not what we need right now, or at least not what we needed a month ago. If the death toll peaks over the weekend here it’s all a moot point and all this incompetent do-nothingism probably will get more people killed than necessary in the short run. Save lives quickly by scaling up basic devices, not throw big 4 consultancy trainwrecks at the problem jfc KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:it's interesting that you can almost always tell software people and hardware people apart Oooh ZING got me there buddy. Ps I have worked with Cardinal, Medtronic, McKesson, AmerisourceBergen, etc. at turns and actually have touched this poo poo. It’s not nearly as hard as you want it to Tremek fucked around with this message at 14:54 on Apr 11, 2020 |
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Apr 11, 2020 13:57
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Apr 11, 2020 15:06
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DADGUM boys that looks about as hard to build as sending the Space Shuttle and some roughnecks to nuke an asteroid, better just kiss your rear end goodbye and pack it in everybody Btw that one looks? electronically regulated and thusly is significantly more complex than the ones I linked above
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Apr 11, 2020 15:34
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PT6A posted:VW did nothing wrong. It wasn't sporting of them, but it's bullshit they got nabbed for that when every manufacturer in existence does (and is allowed to) recommend absolutely bizarre shift points, and designs gear ratios around testing cycles. I own a TDI and still think they were wrong. Come on
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Apr 11, 2020 15:47
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Tremek posted:DADGUM boys that looks about as hard to build as sending the Space Shuttle and some roughnecks to nuke an asteroid, better just kiss your rear end goodbye and pack it in everybody You've made your point and are coming across really badly now.
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Apr 11, 2020 15:52
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Apr 11, 2020 16:30
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Yeah buddy we're all just autists with our Hyundais.
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Apr 11, 2020 16:57
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Goober Peas posted:You've made your point and are coming across really badly now. Living up to the collective standard I guess (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Apr 11, 2020 17:06
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Tremek posted:Living up to the collective standard I guess The standard collective not wanting random non tested so called "ventilators" to flood the market?
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Apr 11, 2020 17:14
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Tremek posted:DADGUM boys that looks about as hard to build as sending the Space Shuttle and some roughnecks to nuke an asteroid, better just kiss your rear end goodbye and pack it in everybody A BVM squeezer isn’t sufficient to treat ARDS.
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Apr 11, 2020 17:16
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Tremek posted:Nope, this is how you get more people unnecessarily dying with that mindset. you really are the dumbest person in this thread, wow
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Apr 11, 2020 17:22
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Is the issue not that full blown ventilators do more than just move air in and out? The term ventilator seems to include the basic stuff people have been throwing together in their sheds all the way to the all singing, all dancing ones and it's these in particular that hospitals are after.
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Apr 11, 2020 17:29
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LeeMajors posted:A BVM squeezer isn’t sufficient to treat ARDS. Yeah, that's the point that a lot in the maker community are not understanding. "Ventilators" encompass a wide range of machines from CPAP through complicated ICU machines. There are specific requirements for COVID-19 patients when they are in the most critical stage that an automated bag squeezer isn't gong to cover. There needs to be a large amount of oxygen supplementation, humidity needs to be controlled, exhalations need to be captured and filtered, and they need to be highly automated with all those parameters because we don't have enough trained personnel to sit at someone's bedside 24/7 and constantly adjust them based on the condition of the patient. With automation comes software, sensors, and tighter design tolerances. That's why GM needs to be building to an already validated spec rather than some quick garage hack. Something like pictured above would be fine for a stable patient that needs assistance breathing due to injury or other deficiency in mechanical action of their lungs, but they are going to be little help for someone who has a disease that changes the condition of the patient by the hour or minute. bull3964 fucked around with this message at 18:09 on Apr 11, 2020 |
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Apr 11, 2020 17:58
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Olympic Mathlete posted:Is the issue not that full blown ventilators do more than just move air in and out? The term ventilator seems to include the basic stuff people have been throwing together in their sheds all the way to the all singing, all dancing ones and it's these in particular that hospitals are after. You have to be able to modulate several parameters of ventilation, PEEP, PIP, tidal volume, rate, FIO2. It has to be able to compensate for leaks automatically with incredibly sensitive pressure sensors. It also has to be able to compensate for occasional spontaneous breaths. It has to be insanely reliable. It has to accommodate standardized accessories for suction and medication administration. An inadequate ventilator can either be ineffective against complex pulmonary pathos or, worse, cause severe barotrauma. It’s why this idea that we can just make a BVM squeezing machine and call it a day is profoundly stupid. E: ^^this guy gets it
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Apr 11, 2020 18:02
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Tremek posted:Nope, this is how you get more people unnecessarily dying with that mindset. My 1944 Garand would like a word. Edit: Actually your entire post is stupid as gently caress, from start to finish.
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Apr 11, 2020 18:03
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I was under the impression that a ventilator has a tube that goes down the airway directly to the lungs, not just a mask over your face. Yeah I don't think I'd want some hastily hacked together poo poo with an F150 blower hooked up to me if I was that sick.
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Apr 11, 2020 18:13
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Applebees Appetizer posted:I was under the impression that a ventilator has a tube that goes down the airway directly to the lungs, not just a mask over your face. The connector at the end of that corrugated tubing is universal and hooks to BVM masks, all manner of filters, adjuncts and endotracheal tubes.
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Apr 11, 2020 18:20
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bull3964 posted:Something like pictured above would be fine for a stable patient that needs assistance breathing due to injury or other deficiency in mechanical action of their lungs, but they are going to be little help for someone who has a disease that changes the condition of the patient by the hour or minute. There's also no shortage of CPAPs/BPAPs for the patients who are stable and just need minor breathing assistance. It's a shortage in ventilators for the critical cases that's the issue. Well, that and that the face mask versions likely just blow infected air all over the room because there's no filtering.
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Apr 11, 2020 18:27
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YOLOsubmarine posted:There's also no shortage of CPAPs/BPAPs for the patients who are stable and just need minor breathing assistance. It's a shortage in ventilators for the critical cases that's the issue. Well, that and that the face mask versions likely just blow infected air all over the room because there's no filtering. CPAP/BiPAP is largely being avoided or used with extreme caution due to aerosolization risks in Covid patients. E: sorry this is all off topic as gently caress LeeMajors fucked around with this message at 18:34 on Apr 11, 2020 |
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Apr 11, 2020 18:32
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LeeMajors posted:CPAP/BiPAP is largely being avoided or used with extreme caution due to aerosolization risks in Covid patients. It's good education and right now it is on topic.
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Apr 11, 2020 18:47
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Guys you're all stupid, we just need a shitload of 3D printers and a roll of 3d printer stuff and we can all make ventilators at home! Victory ventilators we'll call them and we can save the day! ---Tremek, probably, in another few posts Meanwhile, in actual new car news, or actually-exists-now-car news, the C8 finally seems to be actually getting delivered, or at least the thousand or so that were produced before the factory shut down, and it seems to be mostly living up to the hype? And I didn't even realize the convertible was going to be hard top as I'd stopped reading about it after the initial announcements last year. If the convertible with the top up has the same interior noise as the coupe, it might be the first time in my life I'm interested in a convertible. I'd still be waiting a few years because if nothing else I need to loving save up and right now there's no hope of getting any discounts (plus every Corvette generation has issues the first few years), but all the reviews seem to find no big problems with the car - the biggest downside they point out is that the passenger feels walled off from the driver by that row of HVAC controls riser thing, and....who gives a poo poo. Sucks for the passenger I guess? But yeah I'm excited about a GM product that isn't a ventilator.
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Apr 11, 2020 18:50
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Applebees Appetizer posted:I was under the impression that a ventilator has a tube that goes down the airway directly to the lungs, not just a mask over your face. They’re not doing that, probably https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vox.com/platform/amp/recode/2020/4/10/21209709/tesla-gm-ford-ventilators-coronavirus “GM is taking a streamlined approach by making Ventec’s existing VOCSN ventilator model, which is cleared by the FDA to fill the critical care needs like those faced by coronavirus patients. Initially, a stripped-down version of the VOCSN, called the V+Pro, will be produced that uses fewer parts and can be done sooner. Ventec’s ventilators are small and portable. They include the features needed for critically ill patients but are cheaper, easier to use, and faster to build than typical ICU ventilators.”  None of this poo poo is rocket science. A lot of the supply chain for these in particular are already sourced in the US. GM’s units are much fancier than the mass-casualty units and have multiple functions. The unit price is probably ~$20k for VOCSN. However - as told by a friend at the CDC - if you can stabilize moderately sick individuals on less-capable devices, you keep more people out of the ICU where the higher-end ventilators are in critically short supply. This isn’t a black and white panacea although as always hyperbole and absolutism are the core tenets of the zeitgeist so carry on as you were e: as told by CDC buddy who is knee deep in modeling forecasts even if the GM ventilators don’t turn up until August we still may well need them for the second resurgence of the virus that he states as “almost certain” once restrictions are lifted. Curve may he sufficiently flattened right now but there’s a not-insignificant chance this will ramp again. loving grim Tremek fucked around with this message at 19:05 on Apr 11, 2020 |
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Apr 11, 2020 18:50
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Tremek posted:Usual suspects missing the point entirely, not shocking, rename this thread forest for the trees and it would be accurate. And yet the point people who have a clue are making sails utterly over your head as you stomp around being a truly enormous arrogant rear end in a top hat. Yes, this is me, a noted arrogant rear end in a top hat saying drat this guy really needs to dial it back to 11.
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Apr 11, 2020 23:03
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Super Soaker Party! posted:C8 stuff. 1: All Corvettes have removable roofs - coupe versions don't exist. 2: The big complaint I'm hearing is about the quality control on the stitching. https://carbuzz.com/news/new-chevrolet-corvette-has-embarrassing-quality-issue
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Apr 11, 2020 23:19
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KillHour posted:1: All Corvettes have removable roofs - coupe versions don't exist. That’s our GM! *laugh track*
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Apr 11, 2020 23:39
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"Hey GM, make precision health equipment"
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Apr 11, 2020 23:44
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Lol @ this thread talking about ventilators.
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Apr 11, 2020 23:47
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Applebees Appetizer posted:I was under the impression that a ventilator has a tube that goes down the airway directly to the lungs, not just a mask over your face. The thing Ford is building is a positive pressure breathing mask for medical staff to use, iirc.
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Apr 11, 2020 23:48
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LeeMajors posted:CPAP/BiPAP is largely being avoided or used with extreme caution due to aerosolization risks in Covid patients. Guess what Elon Musk bought and sent to NYC covered in Tesla logos.
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Apr 11, 2020 23:49
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