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evilweasel posted:This is doing the Berniebro thing where things important to me are policy preferences and things important to you are not. I would prefer bernie’s health care system, but because I know there’s not a chance in the world I can get it regardless of who I vote for my preference is the Biden proposal which advances the ball, versus the Bernie one that would go nowhere. What you want in order to get tangible results is part of a platform just as much as your aspirations if there was no difficulty implementing them. You, and other of the more...rabid... Bernie supporters, ignore that last part. If Bernie can't accomplish anything, Biden sure as hell can't. The Republicans literally won't let the Democrats pass legislation to name a post office after John McCain. Bernie actually has plans to make use of the mass movement and bully pulpit, Biden is literally just 'Republicans will start being nice to us once we get rid of mean ol' Trump'.
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Apr 15, 2020 15:12
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Mat Cauthon posted:You can check the status of your corona bux here: https://www.irs.gov/coronavirus/get-my-payment Okay, but my point was that someone got it who hasn't been a resident alien for over 2 years and shouldn't have qualified. I also won't qualify for another few months, at which point ??? who knows ???
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Apr 15, 2020 15:12
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eXXon posted:Someone I know said they got a $1200 direct deposit from the IRS this morning. Looks like I got mine yesterday.
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Apr 15, 2020 15:15
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Ghost Leviathan posted:If Bernie can't accomplish anything, Biden sure as hell can't. The Republicans literally won't let the Democrats pass legislation to name a post office after John McCain. Bernie actually has plans to make use of the mass movement and bully pulpit, Biden is literally just 'Republicans will start being nice to us once we get rid of mean ol' Trump'. "You, and other of the more...rabid... Bernie supporters, ignore that last part" says guy who thinks winning move is compromising before coming to the table which has definitely been the winning move our entire lives.
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Apr 15, 2020 15:16
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ReidRansom posted:Looks like I got mine yesterday. My wife, son, and I just got ours. My daughter, born in Jan, didn’t. My understanding is that we’ll get hers when we file our 2020 return.
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Apr 15, 2020 15:17
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eXXon posted:Okay, but my point was that someone got it who hasn't been a resident alien for over 2 years and shouldn't have qualified. I also won't qualify for another few months, at which point ??? who knows ??? Lmao is this because they filed taxes in 2018? 
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Apr 15, 2020 15:17
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i am harry posted:Lmao is this because they filed taxes in 2018? ahaha if so. sounds about right for this government.
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Apr 15, 2020 15:18
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evilweasel posted:my preference is the Biden proposal which advances the ball, versus the Bernie one that would go nowhere. And your framing is off, here. Is it better to go nowhere or in the wrong direction? Because that is what most folks here are convinced Biden is going to do. Berniebros lived through the Obama administration. They know that there is value in actually attempting to fix things rather than not even trying at all, or continuing to make the wrong decisions over and over.
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Apr 15, 2020 15:19
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Al-Saqr posted:It’s ok dude we’re all going to die from climate change thanks to Barack Obama and the DNC so insane hatred and rage is literally all we have left in the face of incoming ecological collapse and eco fascism taking hold. I mean, we lost the battle for humanity’s future so there’s nothing left to lose by spitting blood out of anguish and hate online. You must be fun at dinner parties.
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Apr 15, 2020 15:19
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Groovelord Neato posted:To save yourself embarrassment in the future you should look up how policy positions polled among Democratic primary voters. Either the primary voters believed Biden held the same positions as Sanders did or they bought into the electability drivel and favored that over their own policy preferences. But they weren't voting for Biden because they agreed with his actual platform. This is not true. On Super Tuesday, despite Biden voters overwhelmingly wanting a candidate who could beat Trump over a candidate who agreed with them on issues, they still agreed with Biden on opposing M4A.
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Apr 15, 2020 15:19
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Ok Comboomer posted:Some of the people here are operating on a level of sustained dysphoric mania that frankly scares me. Like, maybe I’m hypersensitive because it’s 9 in the morning, but do you have to post like a whole Ace Ventura monologue the second you log on? Do the avatars of centrist swine/bernie bros trigger you into spaniel rage? Do your eyes roll back as you autopilot into reminding people who all largely agree that we’re existentially hosed for the twentieth time? Tensions are really loving high among anyone who follows politics, and the internet amplifies it. I've had some really emotional conversations in person the last week, too. It's not going to get better, either, because we are in a beyond hosed situation with inevitable suffering regardless of the outcome, so this tension is inherent. If you need to check out, do it, but nobody is going to apologize for being really on edge when staring down the barrel of this gun.
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Apr 15, 2020 15:20
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Xombie posted:This is not true. On Super Tuesday, despite Biden voters overwhelmingly wanting a candidate who could beat Trump over a candidate who agreed with them on issues, they still agreed with Biden on opposing M4A. https://twitter.com/PramilaJayapal/status/1237561365985779713 Was something like 20 states in a row where a majority favored M4A. They also supported the Green New Deal.
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Apr 15, 2020 15:21
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https://mobile.twitter.com/TheOnion/status/1250131211399368704
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Apr 15, 2020 15:21
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evilweasel posted:Biden is basically ‘generic democratic candidate’
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Apr 15, 2020 15:24
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Why does this person find high support for free healthcare in the state with the worst economy education and job prospects surprising?!
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Apr 15, 2020 15:28
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evilweasel posted:you don’t need to agree with it to recognize Biden is running basically on those average views. This is completely wrong. The average Democratic voter is a lot closer to Bernie on policy and wants universal health care, higher taxes, wealth taxes, etc. The doner class is the group pushing back on this stuff and forcing a compromise in Biden, and that's why leftists are upset. It's not about conservative vs leftist Democrats, it's voters vs the wealthy interests controlling Democratic politicians. Biden got the votes because the powers that be flooded mainstream discourse with the bogus notion that only Joe could beat Trump. The same powers that whine when progressives primary them while supporting primary challenges against popular progressives. I'm starting to hate Obama. Best president of my lifetime who tried to cut entitlements and only failed because Republicans wouldn't take yes for an answer. In terms of leftist policy he took a step in the right direction and then erected a barricade. Maximum progress achieved, please don't tarnish Obama's reputation by asking for more.
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Apr 15, 2020 15:28
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evilweasel posted:Biden is basically ‘generic democratic candidate’ Wasn't expecting you to slam on Democrats. They're not all rapists!
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Apr 15, 2020 15:30
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Groovelord Neato posted:https://twitter.com/PramilaJayapal/status/1237561365985779713 Those exit polls aren't at odds with the ones I posted, and overall support among Democratic voters isn't what I was talking about or what you were talking about in the post I replied to. You were talking about Biden voters, specifically. Even though a majority of Democratic primary voters in many states agree with M4A, on Super Tuesday 40% of those went for Sanders and only 26% went for Biden. Of the other part that don't support M4A, they went harder for Biden at 51% than Bernie at 11%. The narrative that Biden voters were voting largely against their beliefs doesn't pan out. The majority of Biden voters agreed with him. Do the math. Biden only peeled off very few people who don't agree with him on this issue. But compared to Sanders, he lost way fewer people who do agree with him. Xombie fucked around with this message at 15:38 on Apr 15, 2020 |
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Apr 15, 2020 15:34
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Joe "we must chemically lobotomize the black children in order to keep America safe" Biden is not in the middle on... pretty much anything for perspective, the guy's olive branch to the left on healthcare was to the right of Hillary Clinton's, and his stance on Should Americans Die Of Coronavirus On My Behalf has been established as a firm yes. his constant loving over of the poor and the weak was the proximate reason Liz Warren entered politics, back when she still considered herself a republican, on the grounds she thought the poo poo he was up to was monstrous. he stands before you today because Barack Obama thought nominating the guy who said racist poo poo about him as his VP would assure moderate squishes he wouldn't do anything too left-wing, and then went to the mat to guarantee that same segregationist rapist won the primary out of terror a socialist might win instead. guy was on the right wing of the party ten years ago, let alone twenty. the argument he's had a conversion on the road to Damascus and since become a moderate voice is an argument that, politely, lacks evidence.
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Apr 15, 2020 15:34
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PerniciousKnid posted:This is completely wrong. The average Democratic voter is a lot closer to Bernie on policy and wants universal health care, higher taxes, wealth taxes, etc. The doner class is the group pushing back on this stuff and forcing a compromise in Biden, and that's why leftists are upset. It's not about conservative vs leftist Democrats, it's voters vs the wealthy interests controlling Democratic politicians. To expand on this, the Dem base is barely considering policy right now. The Dem base is horrified by Trump and nostalgic for Obama and aren't being explicitly hosed badly enough by the neoliberal class order for them to revolt. The primary was game theory for dipshits. My wife was a locked-in Bernie supporter in the primary and we had a hell of a fight when I said I wasn't going to help canvass NH for Biden in the general. That's the feeling among my relatively comfortable demographic.
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Apr 15, 2020 15:35
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eXXon posted:Someone I know said they got a $1200 direct deposit from the IRS this morning. If they're a Nigerian prince, this show has truly jumped the shark
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Apr 15, 2020 15:37
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PerniciousKnid posted:Wasn't expecting you to slam on Democrats. They're not all rapists! Oh wait, Obama continues to be a good and popular president? ...huh
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Apr 15, 2020 15:39
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PerniciousKnid posted:Biden got the votes because the powers that be flooded mainstream discourse with the bogus notion that only Joe could beat Trump. The same powers that whine when progressives primary them while supporting primary challenges against popular progressives. this is an article of faith among bernie supporters (as it needed to be for him to have a chance) but is not true. all evidence, including the actual results of the primaries (which disproved the bernie argument he could uniquely drive turnout and in particular youth turnout, and that biden was just too senile to even manage a debate) is that biden is a stronger GE candidate. bernie supporters have an argument that bernie was more electable than he was given credit for, but the problem is that the strongest argument for that is his national poll numbers which (a) reflected a (self-identified) surge in youth voters that was not matched by the actual reality of the primary turnout, and are therefore suspect; (b) were still worse than biden's; and (c) ignored the state polls which showed bernie significatly weaker in key states, which as we all discovered in 2016 is the real ballgame had bernie won the primary i believe he likely would have won the GE (and i thought that before the pandemic). ironically i believe the pandemic largely erased biden's advantage here because i believe it has made trump such an underdog that differences between the dem candidates on electability are likely minor. further, electability has a side effect: downticket races. bernie winning by 2 points (and winning the EC) is not the same as, say, Biden winning by 9 and also winning the EC. because biden winning by 9 wins a lot of downticket races bernie loses - which may matter if it flips the senate. all vulnerable dems and dem candidates against vulnerable republicans expressed a strong preference for biden as much more helpful for them at the top of the ticket. all in all, the bernie narrative that people were lied to about electability is 100% wrong. we will never know for sure who is actually more "electable" because you just can't do that test, unfortunately (we know, for example, clinton was not "electable" enough but we don't actually know bernie was better in 2016, though we can of course argue the point). but the evidence that exists supports the conclusion biden was the more electable candidate. so even if it turns out to be wrong, that doesn't support the claim it's a "bogus notion" that could only be supported by evil powers that lied to the electorate. this also ignores that if bernie couldn't deal with evil powers lying to the electorate, what the gently caress did he think was going to happen in the GE?
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Apr 15, 2020 15:40
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Speaking from the outside of US politics, the easiest criticism you can level against Obama is following his presidency material conditions for people in the USA had become so bad you ended up with President Trump. Obama also didn't do nearly enough to address climate change. That failure alone condemns not only him but every politician who was operating in leadership from 2000 to today.
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Apr 15, 2020 15:41
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SocketWrench posted:Whitmer signed a bill suspending evictions in MI I'm in NC. I was in the middle of a six month apprenticeship that went sour because antisemitism, with a side gig working at a gas station before they laid me off. I was just looking into getting another apprenticeship and then obviously all the tattoo/piercing shops closed down. I quarantined myself down here and don't want to travel back home because of the expense and I'm terrified I'll pick something up on the way and give it to my grandmother. Up til late November I was doing gig work in MI which they told me qualified me for MI UI, and NC says I don't qualify because I didn't make enough money in Q4. (Due to moving/working in Nov). And I don't get a stimulus because apparently my grandmother claimed me as a dependent on her taxes lmao Anyway tldr; means testing is garbage, just give people money
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Apr 15, 2020 15:41
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BRAKE FOR MOOSE posted:To expand on this, the Dem base is barely considering policy right now. The Dem base is horrified by Trump and nostalgic for Obama and aren't being explicitly hosed badly enough by the neoliberal class order for them to revolt. The primary was game theory for dipshits. My wife was a locked-in Bernie supporter in the primary and we had a hell of a fight when I said I wasn't going to help canvass NH for Biden in the general. That's the feeling among my relatively comfortable demographic. the difference between trump and any (reasonable*) democratic candidate that is as far from any voter's preferences is a massive policy difference. * reasonable as in reasonable to describe them as a Democrat. No Lyndon laRouches. evilweasel fucked around with this message at 15:44 on Apr 15, 2020 |
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Apr 15, 2020 15:42
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evilweasel posted:This is doing the Berniebro thing where things important to me are policy preferences and things important to you are not. I would prefer bernie’s health care system, but because I know there’s not a chance in the world I can get it regardless of who I vote for my preference is the Biden proposal which advances the ball, versus the Bernie one that would go nowhere. What you want in order to get tangible results is part of a platform just as much as your aspirations if there was no difficulty implementing them. You, and other of the more...rabid... Bernie supporters, ignore that last part. It is frustrating to watch in a debate and discussion forum people asserting things that are not possible. I know I am making the wrong assumption that we are following logic here but geez the amount of unironic attempts at trying to convince others through sheer force of will in a discussion form is annoying. That being said I'll admit the slapfight between two folks trying to convince each other by being more confident than their interlocutor is pretty funny, but alas this is certainly getting more and more like primary chat.
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Apr 15, 2020 15:42
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Xombie posted:Those exit polls aren't at odds with the ones I posted, and overall support among Democratic voters isn't what I was talking about or what you were talking about in the post I replied to. You were talking about Biden voters, specifically. Even though a majority of Democratic primary voters in many states agree with M4A, on Super Tuesday 40% of those went for Sanders and only 26% went for Biden. Of the other part that don't support M4A, they went harder for Biden at 51% than Bernie at 11%. The narrative that Biden voters were voting largely against their beliefs doesn't pan out. The majority of Biden voters agreed with him. so, those overall support numbers you don't want to talk about, what do those say again to my uninitiated eyes it sure LOOKS like they say an electorate that wanted Medicare For All also voted for the guy who proceeded to tell them he'd veto it if it ever arrived on his desk
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Apr 15, 2020 15:42
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EW, you are seriously selling short the unprecedented move to clear the field the day before Super Tuesday for a dude who got absolutely blown the gently caress out in 3 of 4 early primary states. Like, yes, the prevailing Bernie Narrative has to be re-evaluated in light of electoral failure, but I don't know how you are so confident making relative electability arguments for the general election with the numbers we have.
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Apr 15, 2020 15:44
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Tibalt posted:HAHA GOTT'EM! YOU TOTALLY BURNED HIM BRO! THAT TOTALLY DESTROYED HIS ARGUMENT! sometimes you just gotta throw a bunch of kids in dog cages, in exchange for literally zero political gain
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Apr 15, 2020 15:45
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hooman posted:Speaking from the outside of US politics, the easiest criticism you can level against Obama is following his presidency material conditions for people in the USA had become so bad you ended up with President Trump. For what feel like the 100th time. Racism, not "Economic Anxiety" was how Trump won. So no, you can't easily criticize Obama for being black.
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Apr 15, 2020 15:46
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Angry_Ed posted:For what feel like the 100th time. Racism, not "Economic Anxiety" was how Trump won. So no, you can't easily criticize Obama for being black. can you criticize him for his genius "if I purge enough of the untermenschen, republicans will have to vote blue going forward" strategy
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Apr 15, 2020 15:47
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This is all a very long winded way of saying that "whoever won the election was the most electable" which, while not wrong, is certainly also not interesting
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Apr 15, 2020 15:47
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Koalas March posted:I'm in NC. I was in the middle of a six month apprenticeship that went sour because antisemitism, with a side gig working at a gas station before they laid me off. I was just looking into getting another apprenticeship and then obviously all the tattoo/piercing shops closed down. I quarantined myself down here and don't want to travel back home because of the expense and I'm terrified I'll pick something up on the way and give it to my grandmother. Are you looking to be a piercer or a tattooer? A tattoo apprenticeship as a woman generally goes one of two ways: 1. Don't become a tattooer because you didn't gently caress your mentor. 2. Don't become a tattooer because, while your mentor didn't try to gently caress you, they are a complete piece of poo poo on other important aspects. (for context, an apprenticeship as a man generally ends in: Don't become a tattooer because you got tired of cleaning the toilets twice a day and never actually learning anything, and in the end you're kicked out but all the machines and supplies you bought get to stay.)
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Apr 15, 2020 15:47
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JacobinPhoney posted:You must be fun at dinner parties. Nah, I dont give a poo poo about dinner parties.
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Apr 15, 2020 15:48
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evilweasel posted:this also ignores that if bernie couldn't deal with evil powers lying to the electorate, what the gently caress did he think was going to happen in the GE? This entire post, like all the others, is incredibly silly (there's a book by Herman and Chomsky you need to read) but a primary isn't a general. Angry_Ed posted:For what feel like the 100th time. Racism, not "Economic Anxiety" was how Trump won. So no, you can't easily criticize Obama for being black. When people bring that up they meant it depressed Democratic turnout. Groovelord Neato fucked around with this message at 15:52 on Apr 15, 2020 |
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Apr 15, 2020 15:49
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Tibalt posted:HAHA GOTT'EM! YOU TOTALLY BURNED HIM BRO! THAT TOTALLY DESTROYED HIS ARGUMENT! gently caress obama
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Apr 15, 2020 15:49
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BRAKE FOR MOOSE posted:EW, you are seriously selling short the unprecedented move to clear the field the day before Super Tuesday for a dude who got absolutely blown the gently caress out in 3 of 4 early primary states. Like, yes, the prevailing Bernie Narrative has to be re-evaluated in light of electoral failure, but I don't know how you are so confident making relative electability arguments for the general election with the numbers we have. So what made the primary voters for latter states decide to pull the lever for Biden once the other primary candidates started dropping out?
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Apr 15, 2020 15:49
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evilweasel posted:This is doing the Berniebro thing where things important to me are policy preferences and things important to you are not. I would prefer bernie’s health care system, but because I know there’s not a chance in the world I can get it regardless of who I vote for my preference is the Biden proposal which advances the ball, versus the Bernie one that would go nowhere. I have a serious question for you: could you explain to me how Biden will "advance the ball" on healthcare, given that (1) the filibuster exists, and (2) not even in the rosiest predictions of Democratic Senate prospects do they attain the 60 seats you need to defeat a Republican filibuster? If you wish to argue that (2) is wrong and Democrats will pick up 14 seats I'd be interested to hear that reasoning too.
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Apr 15, 2020 15:51
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BRAKE FOR MOOSE posted:EW, you are seriously selling short the unprecedented move to clear the field the day before Super Tuesday for a dude who got absolutely blown the gently caress out in 3 of 4 early primary states. Like, yes, the prevailing Bernie Narrative has to be re-evaluated in light of electoral failure, but I don't know how you are so confident making relative electability arguments for the general election with the numbers we have. This argument boils down to a complaint that Bernie was not given the chance to win via the spoiler effect. It also ignores that non-viable candidates dropping out before Super Tuesday is how things generally work. The spoiler effect is undemocratic, something “the left” has understood until the one moment it could have helped them, and a better voting system (i.e. condorset) would eliminate it. People botching over “centrist voltron” and the like are bitching that voters got a clear choice and that they didn’t get to waste the votes of people they disagreed with. That said Bernie supporters have a reason to be angry Warren didn’t also drop out - but neither did Bloomberg, so that’s probably a wash at best.
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Apr 15, 2020 15:52
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