|
bobjr posted:The main motivator is Drumpf, and the only way you see that not get worse is Drumpf performing a miracle and creating a vaccine himself. Trump's base already considers Covid to be either a hoax or not actually that dangerous, even in the face of 70k Americans dead. He's going to keep most of his voters, thanks to them all being indoctrinated by Breitbart and Fox News.
|
#
?
May 5, 2020 23:47
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 2, 2024 15:18 |
|
|
KingNastidon posted:I don't see value in trying to prove something else may have happened if the situation was vastly different. Yes, maybe Bernie would have won vs. Biden if Klobuchar and Buttigieg backed him instead. A candidate with the politics of Sanders would probably have a better chance at winning a national election if other politicians and primary candidates had policies more like his and then dropped out and consolidated support behind him. And? They're trying to discuss how the media manufactured Biden's win and you're using a whole lot of words to say "gently caress you I don't want to talk about that." And it's important to discuss because if Biden's win was manufactured then trying to draw conclusions about voter desires from it becomes less meaningful. All a media/power-broker manufactured win tells you about the voter is that they listen to said power brokers.
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2020 23:49
|
|
|
Phone posted:Why would you trust anything a documented plagiarist and liar tells you? Well yes, but I felt like it was more prudent to directly address the page being linked as proof of Joe's bona fides on LGBT+ rights, especially in the context of the Obama administration doing the same thing.
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2020 23:49
|
|
VitalSigns posted:lmao at the last paragraph being a huge self-own on the first one No, I was originally disagreeing with Gumball because I don't think Biden voters are voting for Biden because they want the left to gently caress off. They just prefer a different candidate and no one is telling anyone to gently caress off or they aren't needed. Biden or anyone else isn't going to make sweeping changes to their stated policies because someone at a town hall said they don't like it. Biden not changing his policies due to a criticism isn't any more or less of a gently caress off than Bernie not changing his.
|
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2020 23:50
|
|
|
It bears repeating that James Callaghan-esque social democracy would be centrist if the Overton Window hadn't shifted so far to the right over the past 45 years or so moderate Dems are pretty much orthodox Thatcherites
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2020 23:51
|
|
|
How are u posted:I don't like what they did in NY and hopefully the voters hold them accountable down the line. I don't think it is some kind of definitive proof you can't work within the system, just means you gotta go from the bottom up and build power so we're the ones in control. Like I have been saying. How? How do you "work from the bottom-up within the system" when the system can and will shut down any means you can use to affect it if it feels remotely threatened? You're saying you want voters to hold people responsible for those people going so far as to cancel votes, as if massive fuckery isn't the inevitable response there too. New York already has their "moderate" Democrats working with Republicans to stifle any attempts at good things. Really, you keep citing the "Virginia model" but that just proves the point people are making in this thread about the Democratic Party and leftists; a lot of the good happening in Virginia has been pushed by Lee Carter, an actual (kind of) socialist, not a moderate. The moderates also refused to help Carter in his first campaign, which makes him winning anyway and taking out one of the most powerful Republicans in the state that much more amazing. Since he won, meanwhile, they've shot down a lot of the good things he's tried to push for, and watered down much of the rest, then took credit for what they allowed through despite the fact that they'd have never tried them at all if he wasn't there. And they've been working against him, including trying to primary him and replace him with a former Republican, who definitely wouldn't have been agitating for all the good things Carter's been pushing if he had won in 2019 instead. Leftists should get involved in local politics anyway, but trying to use Virginia as a positive example of incremental, moderate progress that proves centrists in the party right, rather than Democrats working to crush the left at the state and local levels as well as national and only allowing moderate, often-insufficient reforms that mostly look good because they're following the outright maliciousness of Republicans through, is ridiculous. It's a reminder that Democrats are awful too and need to be fought tooth and nail because they will betray the left, not that they're actually good. It's definitely not an argument in favor of Joe Biden, the man who killed #MeToo. Applying "the Virginia model" to climate change instead of pushing for something like the Green New Deal (something Biden has lied about repeatedly, claiming that scientists say it's impossible rather than something they've said is necessary and had input on) gets us a climate apocalypse just as surely as Trump does, just within a different timeframe. (It also actually fits stuff like how AOC, Ilhan Omar, and so on have been treated by Dems in the House; they've also been brought out for good publicity when convenient, then suppressed and attacked harder than Republicans by their own party at other times, like how Omar received harsher criticism from Dems than Steve loving King. But that's a tangent.) I live in California, where Democrats have a supermajority in both state houses under a Democratic governor. We aren't seeing major changes the way Virginia is here; some good things have happened, but also some pretty bad ones, and the attempt at a state-level universal healthcare system was killed by Democrats. We've still completely failed to do anything meaningful about PG&E murdering hundreds of people, displacing thousands, and destroying entire towns in the name of profit. Our governor tried to include an exemption for Disneyland in the lockdown, before Disneyland itself said "that's stupid, we're shutting down". What would "the Virginia model" look like here, when moderate Democrats already have full power? Or are we an example of it working too because relative to the rest of this hell-country we're still generally better off, despite the major and obvious problems we face that moderates refuse to address? Those things don't seem to be counted as cons in Virginia, so should I just be happy it could be worse? Xombie posted:They already did this with Bill Clinton. Honestly the only exception so far has been Al Franken, and they would have ignored that too if it weren't right in the middle of the height of the #MeToo movement. Xombie posted:Trump put a rapist on the Supreme Court after he was proven to be a rapist on national TV. Who is likely about to overturn Roe v. Wade. This is normalizing rape. You're trying to argue why one rapist should be acceptable, as other rapists are worse, and arguing that he's not out of the ordinary for the party anyway. You are literally arguing that rape is normal, as a defense of Biden. You basically already admitted several times over that you're only posting in this thread to start poo poo and have said several gross and/or stupid things, but this is particularly repulsive. Venomous posted:It bears repeating that James Callaghan-esque social democracy would be centrist if the Overton Window hadn't shifted so far to the right over the past 45 years or so The Democratic Party in the US is to the right of most conservative parties in other countries, barring certain social views. But still willing to tolerate regressiveness there even if it doesn't openly champion it. Phone posted:Why would you trust anything a documented plagiarist and liar tells you? I thought it was concluded that the man was not actually at fault there? Roland Jones fucked around with this message at 23:56 on May 5, 2020 |
|
#
?
May 5, 2020 23:51
|
|
|
KingNastidon posted:No, I was originally disagreeing with Gumball because I don't think Biden voters are voting for Biden because they want the left to gently caress off. They just prefer a different candidate and no one is telling anyone to gently caress off or they aren't needed. oh, he and the party change them due to criticism alright, just not from the left. The 2016-2020 years have seen the whole apparatus shift to bring on board NeverTrump Republicans to the further exclusion of the working class for no other reason than they said they would've voted for Biden but not Clinton, and they make no fiscal demands at all. They, like the Dems, are entirely consumed by aesthetics and PR so they're a natural fit I don't know how you can spin a candidate literally telling a member of his own party's activist base to vote for the other guy as Sensible Pragmatism but for a lot of people it's emblematic of exactly the reason he's gonna lose
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2020 23:54
|
|
|
KingNastidon posted:No, I was originally disagreeing with Gumball because I don't think Biden voters are voting for Biden because they want the left to gently caress off. They just prefer a different candidate and no one is telling anyone to gently caress off or they aren't needed. Biden didn't say "I won't change my policies but here's why you should vote for me anyway", he said "go vote for Trump"
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2020 23:55
|
|
|
VitalSigns posted:Biden didn't say "I won't change my policies but here's why you should vote for me anyway", he said "go vote for Trump" It's always weird to me that centrist types can literally talk to their detractors and say, "if you don't like what I'm saying, I don't want/need your vote" and still have dozens of people defending "of course we can change their minds with voter pressure!"
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2020 23:58
|
|
|
KingNastidon posted:No, I was originally disagreeing with Gumball because I don't think Biden voters are voting for Biden because they want the left to gently caress off. They just prefer a different candidate and no one is telling anyone to gently caress off or they aren't needed. "Go vote for Trump" in response to an immigration activist bringing up his concerns about the massive amounts of deportations carried out under Obama and Biden is pretty much as close to "gently caress off" as you can get without just outright saying it. He literally told someone who questioned him to go away and vote for someone else. He's done this multiple times, though the above is probably the most obviously-heinous and malicious example.
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2020 23:59
|
|
|
KingNastidon posted:This is remarkably honest, but doesn't seem like a great attitude for the left to have when trying to broaden the coalition and overcome their ceiling. I think most Democratic voters, even moderate Biden supporters, believe themselves to be good people and don't want to play nice with people telling them to gently caress off. quote:I don't see value in trying to prove something else may have happened if the situation was vastly different. Yes, maybe Bernie would have won vs. Biden if Klobuchar and Buttigieg backed him instead. A candidate with the politics of Sanders would probably have a better chance at winning a national election if other politicians and primary candidates had policies more like his and then dropped out and consolidated support behind him. And? This is kind of bullshit because the stated reason why Klobuchar and Buttigieg dropped out was because they thought Biden had the best chance of winning the general election, policies didn't really factor into their statements at all. Even the candidate who was touted as being more left wing than Sanders in some regards didn't endorse him when she dropped out. Policies are likely the reason why they endorsed Biden but that's pretty much the opposite of what their stated reason was since Sanders' policies have widespread support amongst both Democrats and independents.
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2020 00:01
|
|
|
no one is going to die because they can't pay their student loans, unless they decide to prioritize not defaulting over food and healthcare and rent. People will die without healthcare. Minorities will die without protections. If student loan forgiveness is enough on its own for a segregationist rapist to buy your vote, you have no loving right to come at minorities about how they're wrong for wanting to for voting for someone who isn't actively working to loving kill them . Own your selfishness at least, and stop using us as bludgeons to justify it instead. Imagine voting for a rapist because he'll forgive your student loans.
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2020 00:02
|
|
|
They endorsed Biden because he offered better bribes. If Biden does win look forward to VP Klob throwing a binder labeled "austerity" at America's collective head.
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2020 00:04
|
|
|
also, I'd like to see a good argument about why i owe my vote to a nominee when i'm literally not allowed to vote for a nominee.
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2020 00:04
|
|
|
KingNastidon posted:I don't see value in trying to prove something else may have happened if the situation was vastly different. Yes, maybe Bernie would have won vs. Biden if Klobuchar and Buttigieg backed him instead. A candidate with the politics of Sanders would probably have a better chance at winning a national election if other politicians and primary candidates had policies more like his and then dropped out and consolidated support behind him. And? You can't have it both ways. If my counterfactual as described is "vastly different" then these things matter. If the voters were going to choose Biden no matter what, then clearly these things don't matter. One follows from the other. Try to keep it straight.
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2020 00:07
|
|
|
PerniciousKnid posted:I don't quite agree with that. What was The New Deal, if not a segment of capital saying "I guess we need to do some socialism before it's forced onto us"? I don't think we're at that point in the near future, but it's entirely possible for capitalists to peel off significant leftist votes. I mean, most people on the left just want M4A and a Green New Deal that basically represent the status quo in plenty of existing capitalist countries.
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2020 00:08
|
|
|
MSDOS KAPITAL posted:Didn't the New Deal nearly result in Roosevelt getting couped? It's called the Business Plot, something which, surely by sheer coincidence, had an ancestor of the Bush family involved in the making. None of them were executed.
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2020 00:11
|
|
|
MSDOS KAPITAL posted:Didn't the New Deal nearly result in Roosevelt getting couped? tbf the Business Plotters were hilariously incompetent and transparently evil, so no, I don't think FDR was in any real danger of being couped
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2020 00:12
|
|
|
MSDOS KAPITAL posted:Didn't the New Deal nearly result in Roosevelt getting couped? I wouldn't say "nearly." The Business Plot was never much more than some conversations and some hearsay accusations.
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2020 00:13
|
|
|
Ershalim posted:Ashanti Alston, many former members of the BPP, the people who went on to form BLA, Martin Sostre... there's loving tons of them. Like, you can't point to Malcolm X as someone who was underrated and in the same breath go "who were the anarchists?!" He advocated for black liberation from below and believed 100% that black people could never be part of this establishment. That he wasn't anti-statist in general doesn't mean he would have ever advocated for people to vote in this election -- he wanted a revolution to break up the US. I have no doubt that's true and I'll take you at your word yet Malcom X's political views rapidly changed through out his life. He did want to people to absolutely use their right to vote and argued repeatedly that people ought to do so from writing to speeches. If that didn't work he wanted to go through with other methods but I am not going to go there. Ershalim posted:You seem to be subscribing the to myth that all black people of the era were totally nonviolent and white people totally listened to them, and you should really really consider reading a lot more into some of the figures of the age. And this age. And in general. Your reading of history is like you skimmed a high school history book and then decided that the end of history was real and have since decided to justify all things from that angle. I don't understand how you have you that impression because I don't believe that. At all. The civil rights movement was pretty drat violent. Ershalim posted:double edit: if you don't get what I mean by end of history, read that, too. The idea that incremental progress and inch-by-inch movements are the sensible and mature thing to do is the position that well-off people with privilege and status have, and placing that perspective onto everyone else is seriously misguided, as Marie Antoinette once famously discovered. I agree that you could say that incremental progress is easy for folks that in a good position yet that's a tautology. The same could be easily said that asking for massive systemic changes for minorities is too risky. My overall point though isn't to shut down "revolutions" or to tell people that should shut up and be happy. It's that you should always take the opportunities available no matter how minor the impact because big opportunities don't happen often. In short, no one should at all should be arguing that the way to change politics is through not voting which has been expressed in this thread more than once by more than one poster. Roland Jones posted:Though I suppose there's another relevant quote from that time period, one that even talks about "inches" and progress: It's always going to be a battle to decide how much you can push but given the current circumstances for the US Presidential 2020 Election the only options I see are lovely incrementalism (and exactly the way AOC describes it) or a lovely corrupt administration with GOP continuing their descent into fascism, racism and terrible austerity. Unless your rich and or a big old corporation. Ytlaya posted:"Liberal" is an extremely vague term by itself that can technically overlap with neoliberals and a variety of other ideologies. It's a term that's getting beat up especially among conservatives whom are quite loud on social media but you'll find most people would find that most people who be okay with Yuval Harari's definition. quote:In brief, liberalism has six main components. In the economic sphere, it upholds free markets within countries, and free trade between countries. In the political sphere, liberalism supports free elections within countries, and peaceful co-operation between countries. In the private sphere, liberalism defends personal freedom within countries, and freedom of movement between countries. If anything, most folks are explicitly focused on the economic portion and describe it in such a way that's super radical which is why I brought up neo-conservatives. Being blunt, I'd describe democrats as "diet capitalists" but they're still at the end of the day capitalists even if they're nice about it with some protections and social safety nets even if they're lovely. Mellow Seas posted:Maaaaybe you guys would stop flipping out at Scientist Al Gore if you just read what he said, instead of writing things between the lines and then reading them. He's saying the most anodyne liberal poo poo ever (the civil rights movement was good! the world has gotten better over... centuries!) and you guys are melting down because you're reading it as (civil rights leaders were liberal heroes! history is a straight line to fairness and equality!). Is it really this hard to have a conversation with somebody you disagree with?  Goons are mean and I have no interest in responding to certain folks. I really wish I had jumped into the Jesse Ventura conversation earlier but YMMV. misadventurous posted:Like this sentence is infuriating just on its face. Yes I’m sure those in the 1960s Civil Rights movement would be shocked at the notion of not voting for the segregationist who eulogized Strom Thurmond. I don't know how much you've been following the thread or specific posters but there is a strong theme or belief that opting not to vote in an election is the way to power. Do you agree with that?
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2020 00:16
|
|
|
Scientist Al Gore posted:I have no doubt that's true and I'll take you at your word yet Malcom X's political views rapidly changed through out his life. He did want to people to absolutely use their right to vote and argued repeatedly that people ought to do so from writing to speeches. OMG, please tell me more about what you think Malcolm X did or didn't believe. This Liberal rewriting of history is fantastic and I am IN. That you managed to misspell his name as well only makes it more perfect. What about violence, or threats of violence? Was he for or against armed conflict with the state?
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2020 00:25
|
|
|
Venomous posted:tbf the Business Plotters were hilariously incompetent and transparently evil, so no, I don't think FDR was in any real danger of being couped
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2020 00:26
|
|
|
KingNastidon posted:No, I was originally disagreeing with Gumball because I don't think Biden voters are voting for Biden because they want the left to gently caress off. They just prefer a different candidate and no one is telling anyone to gently caress off or they aren't needed. Let's make it simple, what does the party offer me, an anti-capitalist, besides "we're the furthest left America has?" Do you think they have a home for what I want as an anti-capitalist? Or do you think the party, who has said that "Democrats are capitalists", opposes me? Gumball Gumption fucked around with this message at 00:32 on May 6, 2020 |
|
#
?
May 6, 2020 00:30
|
|
|
Cpt_Obvious posted:OMG, please tell me more about what you think Malcolm X did or didn't believe. This Liberal rewriting of history is fantastic and I am IN. That you managed to misspell his name as well only makes it more perfect. What part of history did I re-write? Is there something inaccurate or unclear?
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2020 00:31
|
|
|
Just like with the Civil Rights Movement, you are incredibly selective in which parts of which posts you acknowledge, wow. Like leaving out the parts of my post that explain that your views expressed in this thread were literally one of the biggest problems that the Civil Rights Movement faced. Anyway, hey, New York got forced to uncancel the Democratic primary. https://twitter.com/lsarsour/status/1257810700715659268
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2020 00:34
|
|
Gumball Gumption posted:Let's make it simple, what does the party offer me, an anti-capitalist, besides "we're the furthest left America has?" And once you've vanquished the moderate liberals where will their home be? Not economically left enough for the new Democrats, too socially left for Republicans. Do you not consider their plight and lack of home or is it all about me, me, me?
|
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2020 00:35
|
|
|
Roland Jones posted:Just like with the Civil Rights Movement, you are incredibly selective in which parts of which posts you acknowledge, wow. Like leaving out the parts of my post that explain that your views expressed in this thread were literally one of the biggest problems that the Civil Rights Movement faced. There's a ton going on in this thread and I feel with my last effort post I addressed the majority of issues represented as many folks are essentially discussing the same topic or issue. If there's something you think I missed, feel free to bring it up as I'd be happy to address it.
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2020 00:38
|
|
|
KingNastidon posted:Who forced him in? The voters? Biden had the best chance of the moderate candidates before and after SC. He had the highest number of expected delegates. No one was forced to vote for Biden just because some other candidates dropped out. he was in dead last before obama stepped on the scale
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2020 00:39
|
|
|
Scientist Al Gore posted:What part of history did I re-write? Is there something inaccurate or unclear? No, no. Please don't let me interrupt. Tell me more about how his efforts to *checks notes* turn out black people to the polls they were actively prevented from voting in. Be sure to include as many tiny American flags as you can. Scientist Al Gore posted:Go America!
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2020 00:40
|
|
|
KingNastidon posted:And once you've vanquished the moderate liberals where will their home be? Not economically left enough for the new Democrats, too socially left for Republicans. Do you not consider their plight and lack of home or is it all about me, me, me? So is that a yes or a no?
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2020 00:40
|
|
|
KingNastidon posted:Do you not consider their plight and lack of home or is it all about me, me, me? lmao @ the idea that the proletariat should be concerned about the 'plight' of the neoliberal bourgeoisie Why should socialists care about liberals when liberals will always stab socialists in the front in favour of fascists?
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2020 00:41
|
|
|
KingNastidon posted:And once you've vanquished the moderate liberals where will their home be? Not economically left enough for the new Democrats, too socially left for Republicans. Do you not consider their plight and lack of home or is it all about me, me, me?
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2020 00:42
|
|
|
KingNastidon posted:And once you've vanquished the moderate liberals where will their home be? Not economically left enough for the new Democrats, too socially left for Republicans. Do you not consider their plight and lack of home or is it all about me, me, me? Can someone please think of the comfortable, deluded bourgeois?
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2020 00:42
|
|
|
bobjr posted:The main motivator is Trump, and the only way you see that not get worse is Trump performing a miracle and creating a vaccine himself. Trump's base is immovable, Biden's is not. The longer Biden falls under scrutiny the more vulnerable he becomes because he is tremendously terrible as both a candidate and a human being.
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2020 00:43
|
|
|
Like, it's really easy. If you think the party has room for anti-capitalists say so and why. Otherwise say no and we can both agree that the party does not want my ideas and that if they want my vote they want it without offering anything.
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2020 00:43
|
|
|
Cpt_Obvious posted:No, no. Please don't let me interrupt. Tell me more about how his efforts to *checks notes* turn out black people to the polls they were actively prevented from voting in. Be sure to include as many tiny American flags as you can. I don't know what you are trying to ask at all. May you rephrase the question?
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2020 00:43
|
|
|
KingNastidon posted:And once you've vanquished the moderate liberals where will their home be? Not economically left enough for the new Democrats, too socially left for Republicans. Do you not consider their plight and lack of home or is it all about me, me, me? Considering they're cheerleading rape they're not actually socially left, sounds like they'll fit right in with Republicans. The correct answer, of course, is "who cares" because these morons are active impediments to progress
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2020 00:45
|
|
|
KingNastidon posted:And once you've vanquished the moderate liberals where will their home be? Not economically left enough for the new Democrats, too socially left for Republicans. Do you not consider their plight and lack of home or is it all about me, me, me? They want people to go without literal, actual homes, so I'm not that concerned about them not having a political home, personally. Having a political party that caters to your specific, regressive and highly-damaging views is not a necessity. Scientist Al Gore posted:There's a ton going on in this thread and I feel with my last effort post I addressed the majority of issues represented as many folks are essentially discussing the same topic or issue. If there's something you think I missed, feel free to bring it up as I'd be happy to address it. Anything I said, perhaps. Or at least why you're right and the quotes I posted are wrong. Also the post(s) that called you out on how disrespectful your summary of the Civil Rights Movement was. You're ignoring how you seem to have legitimately pissed off some people with that and are instead trying to play the victim to those "mean goons".
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2020 00:45
|
|
|
Gumball Gumption posted:Like, it's really easy. If you think the party has room for anti-capitalists say so and why. Otherwise say no and we can both agree that the party does not want my ideas and that if they want my vote they want it without offering anything. As a Democrat the party absolutely has room for anti-capitalists. You should join the party because they are too many - as I mentioned earlier - "diet capitalists".
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2020 00:46
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 2, 2024 15:18 |
|
|
https://twitter.com/spookperson/status/1257741118466187265?s=19 I really worry about how this woman will vote, should the Dems turn her away. She seems like such a good ally to have, I couldn't stand to lose her to hatred!
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2020 00:46
|
|