|
How are u posted:I'm going to go ahead and listen to every climate scientist and climate activist when it comes to who would be the best choice for climate in November. you should consider who Biden has taken money from. I think him walking back his statements about fracking says infinitely more about what he will do than who a climate scientist says is better.
|
#
?
May 7, 2020 19:07
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 10, 2024 11:03 |
|
|
StratGoatCom posted:A large part of the media bullshit that caused this disaster in the making was, yet again, the dems being too accommodating to Repubs, in this case, the 'NeverTrumpers'.
|
|
#
?
May 7, 2020 19:08
|
|
|
I mean it's been a few decades since we ran CIA black ops campaigns and supported death squads in central america so it was bound to be rebooted by somebody. It's like they say, there are no new ideas, it's all just franchises being endlessly rebooted every 20 years.
|
|
#
?
May 7, 2020 19:10
|
|
|
How are u posted:I'm going to go ahead and listen to every climate scientist and climate activist when it comes to who would be the best choice for climate in November. cool appeal to authority. especially when you're citing a climate scientist's view on politics as opposed to their views on climate science. do you have an actual argument to make? or are you incapable of actually defending your choices
|
|
#
?
May 7, 2020 19:10
|
|
|
How are u posted:I'm going to go ahead and listen to every climate scientist and climate activist when it comes to who would be the best choice for climate in November. Yeah, you do that. Meanwhile, I’m going to listen to a forty year record of suck that tells me all I need to know about who Biden is and what he supports.
|
|
#
?
May 7, 2020 19:11
|
|
|
-Blackadder- posted:I mean it's been a few decades since we ran CIA black ops campaigns and supported death squads in central america so it was bound to be rebooted by somebody. It's like they say, there are no new ideas, it's all just franchises being endlessly rebooted every 20 years. what? what? both of these happened under obama... it definitely has not been a few decades since either of these happened
|
|
#
?
May 7, 2020 19:12
|
|
|
How are u posted:I'm going to go ahead and listen to every climate scientist and climate activist when it comes to who would be the best choice for climate in November. If we go around asking any number of climate scientists "Trump or Biden?" anyone that says Trump should be ignored. Obviously Biden is better than someone who denies that climate change is real. What I'm asking is this: is being better than Trump on climate change actually a measure of anything? Trump is a climate change denier, how hard could it possibly be to be better on climate than him? How much better is Biden? Do any climate scientists think Biden's plan is even close to sufficient? I get to the end of this line of logic and don't find a compelling reason to vote for a rapist. Not based on climate change, anyway. e: I have no reason to trust anyone who is already standing at the switchtrack 6 months down the line waiting for the trolley to show up and kill people. Solanumai fucked around with this message at 19:17 on May 7, 2020 |
|
#
?
May 7, 2020 19:12
|
|
|
How are u posted:I'm going to go ahead and listen to every climate scientist and climate activist when it comes to who would be the best choice for climate in November. Climate scientists aren't an authority on politics, appeals to non-authorities are weak
|
|
#
?
May 7, 2020 19:13
|
|
|
Biden will turn the democrats into climate deniers like him, just like he turned them into rape apologists and Obama turned them into warhawks when there wasn't a Republicans administration to oppose
|
|
#
?
May 7, 2020 19:15
|
|
|
If you always deferred to STEM folks on political matters, Ron Paul would have been president by now
|
|
#
?
May 7, 2020 19:18
|
|
|
-Blackadder- posted:I mean it's been a few decades since we ran CIA black ops campaigns and supported death squads in central america so it was bound to be rebooted by somebody. It's like they say, there are no new ideas, it's all just franchises being endlessly rebooted every 20 years. We never stopped doing that, though.
|
|
#
?
May 7, 2020 19:21
|
|
|
Condiv posted:cool appeal to authority. especially when you're citing a climate scientist's view on politics as opposed to their views on climate science. How is it wrong to take your cues from climate scientists and climate activists when you're discussing which of the two probable winners of the Presidential election will be better for the Earth's climate? Those people are also just as capable of making a political analysis as you or I, posters on the internet, and their analysis is 100% get Trump and the Republicans out of office at all costs, so we can start building the beginning of a Green New Deal.
|
|
#
?
May 7, 2020 19:22
|
|
|
Shere posted:What I'm asking is this: is being better than Trump on climate change actually a measure of anything? Trump is a climate change denier, how hard could it possibly be to be better on climate than him? How much better is Biden? Do any climate scientists think Biden's plan is even close to sufficient? No, I don't think you're going to find any climate scientists who think Biden's plan is close to sufficient. I don't think so to such a degree that I'm not even going to bother googling to find out. However, I think you'll find 100% of climate scientists think that if your choice in November 2020 is between Joe Biden (or any Democrat) and Donald Trump you should vote Trump the gently caress out of office. A Democratic admin we can at least begin to work with. Climate scientists are not in the habit of letting the perfect be the enemy of the good. e: also I'm not trying to convince you to vote for Biden, to be clear. You go vote however you want. I am, though, always going to push back on this patently absurd pretzel logic that 4 more years of Trump will somehow lead to better climate outcomes down the road. Literally nobody who studies climate change or is a climate activist agrees. Accelerationists are free to make their argument, but they have to recognize that they stand directly opposed to the global scientific community on this. How are u fucked around with this message at 19:29 on May 7, 2020 |
|
#
?
May 7, 2020 19:26
|
|
|
How are u posted:No, I don't think you're going to find any climate scientists who think Biden's plan is close to sufficient. I don't think so to such a degree that I'm not even going to bother googling to find out. Not nearly enough to actually make a difference is not 'THE GOOD' it's still loving bad.
|
|
#
?
May 7, 2020 19:29
|
|
|
Biden isn't even close to good, you loving moron. Don't trot out that tired line.
|
|
#
?
May 7, 2020 19:29
|
|
|
Mellow Seas posted:The US had a massive military presence in Iraq for over a decade and only killed like 3% of the people there, I think if their goal was "genocide" they did a poo poo job of it. "Genocide" means something and it doesn't mean "shittily-executed war against people of a different ethnicity". What the gently caress is wrong with you. Holy poo poo, you deserve Biden as your candidate because you're also a monster. Araenna posted:maybe one day someone will answer my questions Your questions are inconvenient to their narrative, and because the people you are addressing are so monumentally lovely they attract plenty of other posts, many of which are easier to answer with their empty platitudes and cliches and don't require directly facing the contradictions and flaws in their worldview. Anyway, again, defending Biden now is stupid even, if not especially, if you're "pro"-Biden and already plan to vote for him in November because Trump is worse etc etc. Even his biggest defenders in this thread admit that he's a monumentally terrible candidate, and his flaws are so obvious that, if we're talking about them, then Republicans will be able to use them against him in the general. From a genuinely pragmatic perspective, rather than the emotional gutfeel of liberals who convince themselves that doing terrible things is "pragmatic", it is better to get this in the open now and either address it, fix it, come up with a defense for it, or at least get it into the public consciousness so it can't be an October surprise, the way Trump weathered the "pussy" tape after a couple weeks of damage but Comey's letter right before the election was probably the final blow to Clinton's campaign. People who want Biden out and people who want Biden to win both should want to criticize him as much as possible now, whether to get him replaced or to force him to become a better candidate respectively. Following from that: Revelation 2-13 posted:You could just say that you think trump is good and cool and worth your vote on his own merits. You don't have to go this roundabout way over to pretending it's a protest vote or whatever. Why are you putting so much effort into ensuring Trump's victory is as easy as possible? Not only are you preventing Biden's flaws from being addressed and making him an easier target for Trump in the general, but you're doing the same thing Biden himself does of telling people who don't want to vote Trump, and have said as much, to vote for him, because of your sheer disdain for people disagreeing with you and having their own opinions. Are you an accelerationist? A Russian asset? Or just someone so full of turmoil you have to project your guilt over going all-out in support of a rapist who will let the planet die onto others to make yourself feel better, despite this being counterproductive to your supposed goals? Why do you want Trump to win so badly? Roland Jones fucked around with this message at 19:46 on May 7, 2020 |
|
#
?
May 7, 2020 19:29
|
|
|
I'm pretty amused that the Biden defenders have seized on climate change because it's the sole issue where he hasnt been vocally terrible for decades
|
|
#
?
May 7, 2020 19:30
|
|
|
I really can't think of anything that embodies idiot lib poo poo more than well ackshually-ing about one option being slightly better than the other when both will lead to the suffering and deaths of billions.
|
|
#
?
May 7, 2020 19:33
|
|
|
Biden himself told voters like me to not vote for him, so that's what I'm doing. Apparently the Biden defenders need to do a better job of listening to their candidate.
|
|
#
?
May 7, 2020 19:34
|
|
|
How are u posted:How is it wrong to take your cues from climate scientists and climate activists when you're discussing which of the two probable winners of the Presidential election will be better for the Earth's climate? If they don't have any particular expertise in political analysis then there's no rational reason to substitute their judgment for your own, unless their conclusions appeal to you on an emotional level of course
|
|
#
?
May 7, 2020 19:36
|
|
|
Unoriginal Name posted:I'm pretty amused that the Biden defenders have seized on climate change because it's the sole issue where he hasnt been vocally terrible for decades https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0kt-JlJFjm0&t=26s He has been terrible the whole primary. It is shocking how he can just lie constantly about taking money from fossil fuel companies and Liberals think that's ok.
|
|
#
?
May 7, 2020 19:40
|
|
|
How are u posted:How is it wrong to take your cues from climate scientists and climate activists when you're discussing which of the two probable winners of the Presidential election will be better for the Earth's climate? because they have not managed to get the dems to actually do anything worthwhile about the climate for over 30 years. if you think the last 30 years of kicking the can down the road was better for the earth's climate that's fine. voting biden will get you another 8-12 years of that, with the situation being much more dire afterwards.
|
|
#
?
May 7, 2020 19:41
|
|
|
How are u posted:e: also I'm not trying to convince you to vote for Biden, to be clear. You go vote however you want. I am, though, always going to push back on this patently absurd pretzel logic that 4 more years of Trump will somehow lead to better climate outcomes down the road. Literally nobody who studies climate change or is a climate activist agrees. Accelerationists are free to make their argument, but they have to recognize that they stand directly opposed to the global scientific community on this. For the record, I think we're pretty much in agreement. There's no scenario in which the planet is improved by 4 more years of Trump. That's just not how climate change works. Pragmatically I don't think there's a whole world of difference between where we end up with either, but if your angle is hope then Trump is hopeless and Biden is only almost entirely hopeless. I don't find the difference compelling enough to even think about overlooking my other issues with Biden and what the party is willing to do (and sacrifice) to install him in the White House in spite of himself.
|
|
#
?
May 7, 2020 19:41
|
|
|
How are u posted:Who in the world is arguing that Joe Biden would "do enough" on climate change? Everybody making a climate change argument for voting for Biden instead of Trump is arguing that Biden will be better than Trump, who is actively working to make things worse and denies that climate change is happening. Joe Biden is nice enough to let us simmer to death whereas Trump is going to guaranteed a rolling and violent boil. Wow!
|
|
#
?
May 7, 2020 19:47
|
|
|
Condiv posted:because they have not managed to get the dems to actually do anything worthwhile about the climate for over 30 years. if you think the last 30 years of kicking the can down the road was better for the earth's climate that's fine. voting biden will get you another 8-12 years of that, with the situation being much more dire afterwards. I disagree. I think that Biden, if elected, will respond to activists. I don't think that all of the climate activists and youth who have come into their own over the last 2 years are going to shrug their shoulders and say "oh good, Biden elected, we're saved". They're going to continue to occupy politicians' offices and state houses and do die-ins. They're only going to grow in strength. A Democratic administration is going to take them more seriously because Democrats believe that climate change is real and something needs to be done. I think we'll get at least one piece of climate legislation passed under a theoretical Biden term. Obviously it will not be sufficient to halt climate change all on its own. If somebody's threshold for acceptable climate legislation is that it must contain all of the solutions in one go then that person is living in a fantasy because it's not the way politics works. I sure *wish* it was!! Under a (D) we will also kick the oil and gas lobbyists out of EPA and start rebuilding the regulatory state. That is incredibly important. I work with climate activists who fight Trump's dismantling of the regulatory state every single day in the courts and they are 100% in agreement that we cannot survive another 4 years of Trump nihilists ripping apart every regulation under the sun seemingly out of sheer spite and a desire to own the libs. How are u fucked around with this message at 19:56 on May 7, 2020 |
|
#
?
May 7, 2020 19:52
|
|
|
How are u posted:I disagree. I think that Biden, if elected, will respond to activists. if he'll respond to activists, why's he being advised by fossil fuel execs? why's he not listening to activists now when he's in the pre-rightward triangulation phase centrists love to do?
|
|
#
?
May 7, 2020 19:55
|
|
|
How are u posted:I disagree. I think that Biden, if elected, will respond to activists. I don't think that all of the climate activists and youth who have come into their own over the last 2 years are going to shrug their shoulders and say "oh good, Biden elected, we're saved". They're going to continue to occupy politicians' offices and state houses and do die-ins. They're only going to grow in strength. A Democratic administration is going to take them more seriously because Democrats believe that climate change is real and something needs to be done. Thank you for this much needed laugh.
|
|
#
?
May 7, 2020 19:55
|
|
|
How are u posted:I think that Biden, if elected, will respond to activists. Biden doesn't respond to people saying "Keep your hands off me!", so what makes you think he'll respond to activists?
|
|
#
?
May 7, 2020 19:56
|
|
|
Condiv posted:if he'll respond to activists, why's he being advised by fossil fuel execs? Because he's a lovely old business Dem. He'll still be the better choice than Trump if that indeed is the choice we have.
|
|
#
?
May 7, 2020 19:56
|
|
|
How are u posted:I disagree. I think that Biden, if elected, will respond to activists. Why? What does he get from listening to activists?
|
|
#
?
May 7, 2020 19:57
|
|
|
Civilized Fishbot posted:Why? What does he get from listening to activists? What kind of question is this? Why does anybody give in to pressure from activists? Because the public pressure becomes too high and the politically smart move becomes giving into some demands. That's how activism works.
|
|
#
?
May 7, 2020 19:59
|
|
|
Unoriginal Name posted:I'm pretty amused that the Biden defenders have seized on climate change because it's the sole issue where he hasnt been vocally terrible for decades Well, that and the argument that if Trump wins we have a chance to stop climate armageddon that won't happen if Biden wins instead.
|
|
#
?
May 7, 2020 20:00
|
|
|
How are u posted:Because he's a lovely old business Dem. He'll still be the better choice than Trump if that indeed is the choice we have. this runs completely counter to your claims he will listen to activists
|
|
#
?
May 7, 2020 20:00
|
|
|
The party that thinks Trump is an illegitimate president because Russia made some Facebook posts during an election cycle just had their entire 50+ voter base lead by nose to the weakest possible candidate by MSNBC and CNN; probably under direction of DNC leadership itself. Maybe Biden defenders should just accept that both parties are objectively harmful, Bernie was the last ditch effort to reform the party, and we're probably going to need to upend our whole system of government to get rid of the entrenched two party system. The system isn't as resilient as we thought it was. Politicians that require vast amounts of money to get elected are always going to side with corporations when push comes to shove, our Supreme Court risks getting stacked with people who don't think civil rights shouldn't exist every 4 years, and conservatives get disproportionate amounts of representation in the government because of a 200 year hold-over from trying to appease the slave owning states. And no matter how much you try to change any of this you won't get anywhere because the wealthy own both parties and they own the media. It's a miracle Bernie got as far as he did with the non-stop propaganda campaign they ran against him. This is going to require some kind of direct action (mass protests, general strikes, etc etc) because you can't vote your way out of fascism or oligarchy; and even if we could there are a mountain of time-critical issues that can't wait for the type of incremental change that Democrats promise but rarely deliver on. Bishyaler fucked around with this message at 20:04 on May 7, 2020 |
|
#
?
May 7, 2020 20:00
|
|
|
How are u posted:What kind of question is this? Why does anybody give in to pressure from activists? Because the public pressure becomes too high and the politically smart move becomes giving into some demands. He's still going to get your vote though. He has your vote right now. No reason to do anything, your vote is locked in.
|
|
#
?
May 7, 2020 20:00
|
|
|
Condiv posted:this runs completely counter to your claims he will listen to activists No, it doesn't. He can be a lovely business Dem who will also respond to other constituencies. The world is not Black or White. There are shades of grey.
|
|
#
?
May 7, 2020 20:01
|
|
|
https://www.vox.com/the-big-idea/2017/4/28/15472508/obama-climate-change-legacy-overrated-clean-power Obama constantly avoided climate change policies because he was afraid of the political implications and upsetting Republicans. Biden is even friendlier to Republicans.
|
|
#
?
May 7, 2020 20:02
|
|
|
Sharkie posted:He's still going to get your vote though. He has your vote right now. No reason to do anything, your vote is locked in. He doesn't have my vote in the Primary. I should be getting my absentee ballot shortly and I'll be voting for Bernie Sanders. If Biden ends up the nominee and it's a choice between him and Trump then I'll vote the lesser evil.
|
|
#
?
May 7, 2020 20:02
|
|
|
How are u posted:No, it doesn't. He can be a lovely business Dem who will also respond to other constituencies. The world is not Black or White. There are shades of grey. so you have no real argument. you believe in your heart of hearts that biden will be good on the climate, despite his current and past behavior, his current and past supporters, and his current and past advisors. please don't try to lecture me on the realities of the world when you're stuck in fantasy land
|
|
#
?
May 7, 2020 20:02
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 10, 2024 11:03 |
|
|
Condiv posted:so you have no real argument. you believe in your heart of hearts that biden will be good on the climate, despite his current and past behavior, his current and past supporters, and his current and past advisors. please don't try to lecture me on the realities of the world when you're stuck in fantasy land No. I believe that Biden will be *better* on climate than Donald Trump. If those are my two choices then it is extremely clear who will be better on climate.
|
|
#
?
May 7, 2020 20:04
|
|