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If only Owen had one more crime against humanity left in him...
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Jun 21, 2020 01:25
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RottenK posted:If you want to discuss your experiences with your ongoing playthrough you should post in the other tlou2 thread. This thread has a lot of unmarked spoilers being posted with no warning. Thanks for the heads up. I looked but didn’t see it.
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Jun 21, 2020 01:25
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people are having visceral reactions to virtual depictions of violence, torture, and murder, and the conclusion others are drawing is that killing is easy actually and has no lasting impacts?
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Jun 21, 2020 01:25
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LionArcher posted:I'm also six hours in, and because of reasons, watched the rest of the cut scenes on YouTube. Gameplay wise it feels good to play but it’s literally the exact same gameplay of the first game. That’s fun but it’s not going to teach anyone any game design lessons they didn’t learn years ago. Storywise I get what it’s trying to do I just think it’s failing at it because the game itself is emotionally immature. The themes and topics it’s covering have been explored better across a million different mediums (including in the first game) but even then, as I said, I don’t have an issue with the story beats or the themes themselves I have an issue with the way it’s telling the story and discussing the themes. If the game wants me to feel angry or uncomfortable then it’s failing miserably because the only emotion I’m feeling is disappointment
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Jun 21, 2020 01:25
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feh, im demon
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Jun 21, 2020 01:27
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Jun 21, 2020 01:28
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LostRook posted:So I know Neil thought the message was "revenge is bad," but is the actual message "revenge is so good that you need to be really thorough with it" because that's what it seems like. Imagine if Abby had also killed Ellie and Tommy when she's captured Joel. Both to finish up loose ends (nobody coming after you for Joel's murder) and to torture Joel even more (remember that she has someone bandage his first wounds, so her angle is very much "I will make you suffer" and this would fit into that very well).
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Jun 21, 2020 01:28
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ErrEff posted:Imagine if Abby had also killed Ellie and Tommy when she's captured Joel. Both to finish up loose ends (nobody coming after you for Joel's murder) and to torture Joel even more (remember that she has someone bandage his first wounds, so her angle is very much "I will make you suffer" and this would fit into that very well). Yeah, it seems like that's something that logically should've happened given what that scene was like, though i don't mind not doing that, but they should've had Tommy out taking a piss and Ellie catching the aftermath and maybe killing one of them for the seattle clue.
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Jun 21, 2020 01:32
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Endorph posted:the issue i think is trying to have it both ways. the characters are meant to be driven by only revenge and thus violent sociopath (thats bad) but also the plot only keeps going because they show mercy or let people get away (this is good, going by the former being bad) but then more bad things happen because of that, so the message becomes that the bad things could have been prevented if theyd been more violent sociopaths My impression was that part of the point is that none of this would've happened if not for people going on obsessive revenge quests. Abby kicked the whole thing off by murking Joel, but if Ellie didn't go after her, or at least stopped and turned back after it became clear that she's putting herself and (more importantly) the woman who loves her into terrible danger, then that'd be the end of it, more or less. Abby moves on with her life, Ellie grieves and hopefully moves on with her life eventually, while still living in a peaceful and developing community and having her loving girlfriend with her. It's not a well executed story, but i kinda see what they're trying to do.
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Jun 21, 2020 01:32
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Nelson Mandingo posted:Uh. What? Disney walked back The Last Jedi to appease nazis? Like. The idea that you're sexist/nazi/transphobic for not liking stories with "progressive" elements is ridiculous and what businesses are using to shield themselves from criticism. The last jedi for instance...it was just objectively bad. "The Last Jedi is Objectively Bad" kind of emphasizes exactly what I mean here. The Last Jedi, for pretty much every metric, is no more Objectively Bad than the Star Wars franchise as a whole. People don't like it because they don't like the direction the story went or are mad that it didn't obey the rules of hyperspace established in the 1996 Official Guide To Bullshit. That is not to say The Last Jedi is a particularly super-great movie or anything but it's not particularly surprising that it can't be "I didn't like the direction the film took" or "I found it boring" but "Actually you see it's Objectively Bad according to Cinemasins.com as it only scored a 23 out of a possible 100 Good Movie points." And no, disliking stories with progressive elements is not wrong. It's even fine to dislike them for entirely illogical or emotional reasons even if they are highly praised or liked. However I do think it's fair to point out that the vast majority of the criticism of TLOU2 that we're discussing today comes not from people who played the game or even watched the entire game on Youtube but people who have read spoilers and decides that means they know how things play out, to the point where people who are coming in to say "Actually I enjoyed the game and think it is well written" are being treated as trolls or liars because they enjoyed something that other people didn't. This is true of a lot of things. There is no problem with having criticism of any product, even if it's a darling story or held up as something tremendous. That doesn't mean you can ignore that a significant amount of that criticism, boils down to nothing more or less than "I am mad character I empathized with died/was treated badly" or "I do not like the direction the story went." I would love to hear actual criticism (or praise!) of TLOU2 that isn't "the internet review man said something stupid" or "How dare they say less of Saint Joel Of The Wastes" or "How woman have muscle?" but the majority of it seems to boil down to that. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 01:39 on Jun 21, 2020 |
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Jun 21, 2020 01:36
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Canadian Surf Club posted:people are having visceral reactions to virtual depictions of violence, torture, and murder, and the conclusion others are drawing is that killing is easy actually and has no lasting impacts? i think a lot of goons are forgetting that some (actually a lot of) people aren't nearly as desensitized to seeing awful things as we are. i saw some other people play and quite a few of them were genuinely affected and disturbed by stuff like Joel's death or the way enemies choke and gurgle when you do a stealth kill with a knife. RottenK fucked around with this message at 01:40 on Jun 21, 2020 |
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Jun 21, 2020 01:37
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Endorph posted:the issue i think is trying to have it both ways. the characters are meant to be driven by only revenge and thus violent sociopath (thats bad) but also the plot only keeps going because they show mercy or let people get away (this is good, going by the former being bad) but then more bad things happen because of that, so the message becomes that the bad things could have been prevented if theyd been more violent sociopaths I get where you're coming from but that kind of assumes that the protagonists have the ability to understand the consequences of their actions in the long term and that is as far as I am aware the exact opposite of what TLOU2 says. Joel's specific action at the end of TLOU was to murder everyone he could and the last person he kills in the game was "to make sure you don't come after us." And it turned out that didn't actually work because Joel isn't an omnicient superbeing who can see the consequences of all his actions. So going "Well see it's saying the answer was that they were not thorough enough in their murder" seems to assume the protagonists have the capability to do that even if they had the desire to do that.
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Jun 21, 2020 01:39
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RoboChrist 9000 posted:Is there a specific term for the brand of performative wokeness you get when it is used primarily as a shield from criticism? Like what we are seeing with this game and what we saw with the Ghostbusters remake, The Last Jedi, and arguably also even with the whole Christina Helper (I think that was her name?) back at Bioware in the day. Where the piece of media has massive glaring flaws but it is extremely difficult to discuss them because in addition to people rightly complaining about those issues, you have literal Nazis screaming about women and minorities sullying their moopies and bideo games. The Last Jedi is the best movie of the Star Wars sequel trilogy Let's have that discussion here imo
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Jun 21, 2020 01:40
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ImpAtom posted:"The Last Jedi is Objectively Bad" kind of emphasizes exactly what I mean here. You can't and shouldn't ignore that a lot of the criticism is Nazis being Nazis, but that doesn't mean that all of the criticism is, which was my original point. Like it's the whole 'Hitler wore pants' thing. If artists and media companies buckle to pressure from Nazis, that is bad. Nazis being Nazis is bad. It is also bad that some artists and media companies use the 'criticisms' of Nazis as a shield to defend their works from criticism and to paint all their critics as Nazis. If you and I can agree that not everyone who dislikes TLOU2 is a Nazi, then it doesn't really loving matter that the bulk of the pre-release backlash came from Nazis, because we now agree that it is possible to genuinely dislike the game without being a Nazi, and yet this possibility is something that many who defend the game pretend is actually an impossibility. No. 1 Apartheid Fan posted:The Last Jedi is the best movie of the Star Wars sequel trilogy I disagree strongly but this isn't the time or place for that discussion. But even if you think it's the best movie of the Star Wars franchise entire, can we agree that it is possible for someone to have criticisms of it that don't require they be a Nazi? Because, again, that's all I was talking about. My post wasn't about the quality or lack thereof of any of the films I mentioned. There are valid reasons for people to dislike them that don't require they be a Nazi, and there are valid reasons for people to *like* them that don't require they be a knee-jerk reactionary doing performative wokeness to stand apart from the Nazis. My point was entirely about the people who pretend that it cannot be that way, and that if you like [work] you are good people and if you dislike [work] you are a Nazi because you cannot possibly have legitimate criticisms of the work apart from being a fascists. RoboChrist 9000 fucked around with this message at 01:43 on Jun 21, 2020 |
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Jun 21, 2020 01:40
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Also while the phenomenon of people thinking that liking media is political action is annoying and probably actively detrimental to discourse, this conversation is taking place on a forum full of people who think disliking media is both political action and something that makes you intelligent Talking to people who like things is way more pleasant
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Jun 21, 2020 01:44
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The Last Jedi was OK. I would have preferred if it committed to its themes. At least its memorable, unlike The Force Awakens. And at least it wasn't offensively awful like Rise of Skywalker was.
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Jun 21, 2020 01:45
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It feels like Tommy's character took a 180 from what we knew about him in the first game. It's very bizarre.
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Jun 21, 2020 01:46
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no one said everyone who hated whatever was a nazi, just the nazis
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Jun 21, 2020 01:46
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[right after a nazi trump guy gets probated for being insanely racist after people called him a nazi and told him to stop posting] oh so youre saying anyone who thinks its bad is a nazi huh??? is no one safe???
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Jun 21, 2020 01:48
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Endorph posted:the secret is the people using it as a distraction are often also bigots, just in a more acceptable way Agreed.
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Jun 21, 2020 01:49
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RottenK posted:obsessive revenge quests. lurker2006 fucked around with this message at 02:02 on Jun 21, 2020 |
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Jun 21, 2020 01:49
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Panzeh posted:Yeah, it seems like that's something that logically should've happened given what that scene was like, though i don't mind not doing that, but they should've had Tommy out taking a piss and Ellie catching the aftermath and maybe killing one of them for the seattle clue. This already sounds better. And sure, there's obvious reasons why the writers wouldn't want Ellie killed so she can go on her revenge quest in the first place. I'm just saying the alternative makes more sense from a character/story perspective (if the writers insist on Ellie and Tommy being witnesses to the murder) and they could've done it to make the death scene even more impactful to audiences (both original protagonists are killed off just like that, whits fits into Neil's "nobody is safe" mantra and ND wanting to shock people) while handing the protagonist roles over to new characters.
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Jun 21, 2020 01:50
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Gologle posted:It feels like Tommy's character took a 180 from what we knew about him in the first game. It's very bizarre. Yeah, I find it really hard to believe that Tommy, who was introduced in the first game telling Joel that the things he had done to keep him alive were not worth it, would immediately head out on a revenge quest instead of calmly Talking to Ellie about his and Joel’s past and why they turned away from that life. Also look, we all know that if Bruce Straley we’re still at Naughty Dog he’d of pointed out that Abby and the WLF would have just shot Ellie and the game would have been radically different like what happened to TLOU 1. Which is deeply disappointing
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Jun 21, 2020 01:53
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ImpAtom posted:"The Last Jedi is Objectively Bad" kind of emphasizes exactly what I mean here. This is a really good post.
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Jun 21, 2020 01:53
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RoboChrist 9000 posted:If you and I can agree that not everyone who dislikes TLOU2 is a Nazi, then it doesn't really loving matter that the bulk of the pre-release backlash came from Nazis, because we now agree that it is possible to genuinely dislike the game without being a Nazi, and yet this possibility is something that many who defend the game pretend is actually an impossibility. Oh, it absolutely isn't an impossibility. Part of the reason why I didn't buy it is because I have a strong feeling I'd hate it. Anyone who voices a well-thought out criticism of Abby or whatever absolutely deserves to not be called a Nazi because they didn't like a character or disliked her role in the story.
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Jun 21, 2020 01:54
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RottenK posted:This tweet is wrong - as far as I'm aware The Last of Us 2 has not raped anyone. I mean Druckmann is a narcissist who relentlessly abuses people he has power over. Not sexually afaik but he's definitely cut from the same cloth.
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Jun 21, 2020 01:57
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lurker2006 posted:Are those even enough of a real world problem to focus a game on? The only thing I can really conceive of is that batshit astronaut lady that had to use diapers. Violence through the lens of convenience or security seem way more relevant than people going hundreds of miles out of their way to settle a blood feud. that is another disconnect here, in that the main themes of the game are likely lost on many gamers because gamers aren't the kind of people who experience the height of emotions depicted unless it involves reducing the breast sizes of game characters
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Jun 21, 2020 01:58
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Culturally, games are in a funny place. The culture war we aren't allowed to talk about left behind a pile of emboldened CHUDs and a wider swath of gamers who don't want "politics" in their games and take it for granted that game reviewers are either on payola, or engaging in cultural critique for clickbait. It's very difficult, under those conditions, to have a conversation about the medium that doesn't dissolve into people assuming their detractors are posting in bad faith. Everything I've seen and read about TLOU2 has given me the impression that it's middlebrow AAA storytelling with a dash of inclusivity (yay!) and ultra misery (boo) that doesn't really have much to say. One of the most disappointing things about it is that the characters seem to keep making really bad decisions. I get that this is an important part of horror storytelling, but I much prefer horror where character are put in terrible situations and do their best and make good choices and still can't survive — Alien & Aliens, type stories. I don't think it's a bad thing that the game is retreading old themes (maybe we're the real monsters after all, revenge is bad). Most human stories retread themes. Most creators mine the past endlessly. People like familiar themes, even when those themes are horrific. Every decade brings new teens to get titillated by slasher movies. The rhythms of twists and turns in horror have their own comfort.
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Jun 21, 2020 02:00
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Turns out the the sequel to a over hyped bad ~~artistic game is still an over hyped and bad ~~artistic game. Also lmao at all the goons contorting themselves into pretzels because lovely people also correctly point out this game is dog poo poo. How many of y'all are voting for biden lmao (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jun 21, 2020 02:05
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Terminal autist posted:How many of y'all are voting for biden lmao whoa there, i know things are getting heated in here but let's not make accusations we can't take back
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Jun 21, 2020 02:06
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Terminal autist posted:Turns out the the sequel to a over hyped bad ~~artistic game is still an over hyped and bad ~~artistic game. Also lmao at all the goons contorting themselves into pretzels because lovely people also correctly point out this game is dog poo poo. How many of y'all are voting for biden lmao you ok
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Jun 21, 2020 02:09
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Stux posted:you ok 
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Jun 21, 2020 02:11
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doingitwrong posted:Culturally, games are in a funny place. The culture war we aren't allowed to talk about left behind a pile of emboldened CHUDs and a wider swath of gamers who don't want "politics" in their games and take it for granted that game reviewers are either on payola, or engaging in cultural critique for clickbait. It's very difficult, under those conditions, to have a conversation about the medium that doesn't dissolve into people assuming their detractors are posting in bad faith. That's always a very difficult part of horror writing or indeed most fiction writing. Characters have to make bad decisions in order to drive both their own character growth and arcs. Characters who are super-competent and incredibly capable can be very satisfying to see but after a certain point even they have to make mistakes. I think the important thing is for those mistakes to be informed by their character. If someone does something stupid that feels in character for them it's fine. If they do something stupid because the plot needs them to do something stupid in defiance of everything involving their character then that sucks. Ripley is a great example in that she makes choices that are good and don't work out, choices that are bad and do work out, and everything in between. There's never really a moment you feel like she isn't acting IC in the first two (arguably the first three) films. TLOU, for all of its many mistakes, was generally fairly good about this. Characters acted in ways that fit their personalities even when those ways ended up being horrifyingly huge mistakes. I don't know about TLOU2 but if it devolves into "I'm doing a stupid thing because the game wouldn't exist otherwise" then that sucks.
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Jun 21, 2020 02:13
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Beat me to it thanks bud. Seriously why aren't are you eli roth stans playing your transcendent genre defining work of art? I can't wait for it to be 2025 when we can have an honest discussion about this game
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Jun 21, 2020 02:14
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lurker2006 posted:Are those even enough of a real world problem to focus a game on? The only thing I can really conceive of is that batshit astronaut lady that had to use diapers. Violence through the lens of convenience or security seem way more relevant than people going hundreds of miles out of their way to settle a blood feud. revenge for some real or imagined grievance against them or against something/someone they care about is hardly an uncommon motivation for awful things that people do to each other, and fiction about revenge (both the stories that play it straight and the stories that criticise it) has always been around
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Jun 21, 2020 02:17
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Terminal autist posted:Beat me to it thanks bud. Seriously why aren't are you eli roth stans playing your transcendent genre defining work of art? I can't wait for it to be 2025 when we can have an honest discussion about this game im never playing tlou2
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Jun 21, 2020 02:19
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[watching me prance around the town, throwing my head hither and yon as i flitter through the streets and alleys, giving no care to father time] i hate his style... it infuriates me!!!
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Jun 21, 2020 02:21
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Stux posted:im never playing tlou2 Yeah, you made the game Neil, why would you play it?
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Jun 21, 2020 02:24
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you've got aids, actually. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jun 21, 2020 02:24
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Have we defeated the vile Chuds, MRAs, and of course the worst of the lot: Those who own an xbox one yet?
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Jun 21, 2020 02:25
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