Humankind: Someone Else's Civilization V

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Fur20: Nov 14, 2007; すご▞い！
君は働か░い
フ▙▓ズなんだね！

Aerdan posted:

From what I understand, 'feudal Japan' is more the Sengoku Jidai (and the period leading up to it) than the Tokugawa Shogunate.

i guess what trips me up is the UU and the UB, the whole point of the shogunate was like "the age of the samurai is OVER" and i think a Foreigner District or some type of trade zone would symbolize the tokugawa era better than a temple. yeah, japan has always had some spirituality in its buildings but when i think temples i think like, ginkaku-ji, kinkaku-ji, and those are feudal era. to me it just feels like the label says one thing but the content says the other thing

# ? Jul 24, 2020 06:47

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# ? Jun 7, 2024 08:07

Kassad: Nov 12, 2005; It's about time.

^^ While the idea of layering cultures over time is interesting, it's still treating those cultures as unchanging entities. It can still be a bit weird when those cultures have in fact existed for hundreds of years, with all the changes that come with that.

Clarste posted:

Still pretty feudal though.

So were lots of places in that period :shrug:

Kassad fucked around with this message at 07:11 on Jul 24, 2020

# ? Jul 24, 2020 06:49

Aerdan: Apr 14, 2012; Not Dennis NEDry

The White Dragon posted:

i guess what trips me up is the UU and the UB, the whole point of the shogunate was like "the age of the samurai is OVER" and i think a Foreigner District or some type of trade zone would symbolize the tokugawa era better than a temple. yeah, japan has always had some spirituality in its buildings but when i think temples i think like, ginkaku-ji, kinkaku-ji, and those are feudal era. to me it just feels like the label says one thing but the content says the other thing

...no, the Tokugawa Shogunate was the birth of the samurai class and, more importantly and relevantly, the genesis of the Shinto religion. What it ended was centuries of feuding...and the Meiji restoration in the late 19th century is what ended the samurai.

# ? Jul 24, 2020 08:46

Fur20: Nov 14, 2007; すご▞い！
君は働か░い
フ▙▓ズなんだね！

huh, poo poo. well then what were retainers and samurai BEFORE the tokugawa shogunate? just, contracted warriors?

# ? Jul 24, 2020 08:51

Clarste: Apr 15, 2013; Just how many mistakes have you suffered on the way here?

An uncountable number, to be sure.

Aerdan posted:

...no, the Tokugawa Shogunate was the birth of the samurai class and, more importantly and relevantly, the genesis of the Shinto religion. What it ended was centuries of feuding...and the Meiji restoration in the late 19th century is what ended the samurai.

Which still makes it weird that their unique building is a Buddhist temple of the sort that had already existed for hundreds of years.

# ? Jul 24, 2020 08:52

Aerdan: Apr 14, 2012; Not Dennis NEDry

The White Dragon posted:

huh, poo poo. well then what were retainers and samurai BEFORE the tokugawa shogunate? just, contracted warriors?

There'd been a warrior aristocracy for a millennium prior, but the modern conception kinda came out of the Shogunate as codified by a dipshit half-Japanese with zero cultural awareness (who used entirely Western sources) in the early 20th century.

# ? Jul 24, 2020 09:03

Jeza: Feb 13, 2011; The cries of the dead are terrible indeed; you should try not to hear them.

I agree that it's a bit weird that their emblematic building is something that had been around for a long time already, but I'm kinda blanking on what would be more appropriate. Tea houses could be a pretty off-piste choice, but they were also pretty established by the Tokugawa era. And their political/cultural relevance had already peaked a little bit before the Tokugawa. Strictly speaking, Floating World-style pleasure district would probably be the most era-appropriate thing, but obviously that is problematic in a totally different direction.

I will say that foreigner trade district is probably not the right vibe at all, given there was only one in all of Japan. The whole Tokugawa era was defined by its isolation from the rest of the world, so it's not really a good fit to be considered 'emblematic'.

# ? Jul 24, 2020 14:29

Charlz Guybon: Nov 16, 2010

Japan in 1600 was just as technologically advanced as western Europe, and despite the Shogunate closing of the country underwent tremendous economic growth over the next two centuries which positioned the country well for industrialization in a way that it's neighbors did not.

# ? Jul 25, 2020 02:55

Beamed: Nov 26, 2010; Then you have a responsibility that no man has ever faced. You have your fear which could become reality, and you have Godzilla, which is reality.

Charlz Guybon posted:

Japan in 1600 was just as technologically advanced as western Europe, and despite the Shogunate closing of the country underwent tremendous economic growth over the next two centuries which positioned the country well for industrialization in a way that it's neighbors did not.

O..okay? Was anyone arguing anything else?

# ? Jul 25, 2020 03:07

Aerdan: Apr 14, 2012; Not Dennis NEDry

Beamed posted:

O..okay? Was anyone arguing anything else?

I believe they were justifying Edo-period Japan's positioning in the Early Modern period.

# ? Jul 25, 2020 06:11

Charlz Guybon: Nov 16, 2010

Beamed posted:

O..okay? Was anyone arguing anything else?

The White Dragon said they didn't feel that Tokugawa Japan was not early modern.

# ? Jul 27, 2020 05:49

Fur20: Nov 14, 2007; すご▞い！
君は働か░い
フ▙▓ズなんだね！

yea i did. maybe the thing i ACTUALLY take issue with is the word "modern," because i'd say 1600-1800 is like "pre industrial/enlightenment era" for most modern countries

the only thing i would consider that to be early modern anything is linguistically

# ? Jul 27, 2020 05:54

blackmongoose: Mar 31, 2011; DARK INFERNO ROOK!

The White Dragon posted:

yea i did. maybe the thing i ACTUALLY take issue with is the word "modern," because i'd say 1600-1800 is like "pre industrial/enlightenment era" for most modern countries

the only thing i would consider that to be early modern anything is linguistically

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_modern_period

I mean, you can argue with every professional historian if you want but I don't think you're going to win

# ? Jul 27, 2020 06:24

Fur20: Nov 14, 2007; すご▞い！
君は働か░い
フ▙▓ズなんだね！

i think you're assuming too much that i'm arguing with them when it's more like, if that's the official term then great but i've never been very good with clinical terminology anyway

# ? Jul 27, 2020 06:30

Gort: Aug 18, 2003; Good day what ho cup of tea

Yeah, a layman saying "modern" probably means something that happened in the last couple of decades, while a historian talking about "modern history" could be talking about something from 1492.

# ? Jul 27, 2020 11:14

Tree Bucket: Apr 1, 2016; R.I.P.idura leucophrys

Gort posted:

Yeah, a layman saying "modern" probably means something that happened in the last couple of decades, while a historian talking about "modern history" could be talking about something from 1492.

"Istanbul or Constantinople?"

# ? Jul 27, 2020 11:39

Dreylad: Jun 19, 2001

Tree Bucket posted:

"Istanbul or Constantinople?"

Byzantium.

# ? Jul 27, 2020 11:44

Gort: Aug 18, 2003; Good day what ho cup of tea

Dreylad posted:

Byzantium.

Medieval Rome

# ? Jul 27, 2020 12:01

Tree Bucket: Apr 1, 2016; R.I.P.idura leucophrys

Dreylad posted:

Byzantium.

Byzantion!

# ? Jul 27, 2020 12:54

Fur20: Nov 14, 2007; すご▞い！
君は働か░い
フ▙▓ズなんだね！

byzantium vs ruthenia rage in the cage

# ? Jul 27, 2020 19:16

Cythereal: Nov 8, 2009; I love the potoo,
and the potoo loves you.

Theodora as a new alternate ruler for both Rome and Greece.

# ? Jul 27, 2020 19:41

webmeister: Jan 31, 2007; The answer is, mate, because I want to do you slowly. There has to be a bit of sport in this for all of us. In the psychological battle stakes, we are stripped down and ready to go. I want to see those ashen-faced performances; I want more of them. I want to be encouraged. I want to see you squirm.

Tree Bucket posted:

"Istanbul or Constantinople?"

That's nobody's business but the Turks

# ? Jul 28, 2020 00:11

Beamed: Nov 26, 2010; Then you have a responsibility that no man has ever faced. You have your fear which could become reality, and you have Godzilla, which is reality.

Aerdan posted:

I believe they were justifying Edo-period Japan's positioning in the Early Modern period.

Charlz Guybon posted:

The White Dragon said they didn't feel that Tokugawa Japan was not early modern.

Yep, my bad!

# ? Jul 28, 2020 06:04

Aerdan: Apr 14, 2012; Not Dennis NEDry

https://twitter.com/humankindgame/status/1288142519251894272

# ? Jul 28, 2020 17:36

The Human Crouton: Sep 20, 2002

All I see is the :thunk:

when I see these ads anymore. A constant stream of :thunk:

s every week forever.

# ? Jul 29, 2020 00:58

Aerdan: Apr 14, 2012; Not Dennis NEDry

https://twitter.com/humankindgame/status/1288459454451789825

Livestreamed Q&A today.

# ? Jul 29, 2020 14:24

Det_no: Oct 24, 2003

Getting ready for takeoff.

https://store.steampowered.com/app/1271140/HUMANKIND__OpenDev/

# ? Jul 29, 2020 22:21

Charlz Guybon: Nov 16, 2010

Aerdan posted:

https://twitter.com/humankindgame/status/1288459454451789825

Livestreamed Q&A today.

Here's a video of that. About 40 minutes of Q&A
https://twitch.tv/694307912

# ? Jul 30, 2020 05:42

webmeister: Jan 31, 2007; The answer is, mate, because I want to do you slowly. There has to be a bit of sport in this for all of us. In the psychological battle stakes, we are stripped down and ready to go. I want to see those ashen-faced performances; I want more of them. I want to be encouraged. I want to see you squirm.

Shamelessly stolen from Reddit:

quote:

Open Dev is very very soon. (We've been informed by good ol' Cato that it'll come out this month. Probably.) Keep your eyes peeled on your email.

Most of the devs are working from home still thanks to Covid.

Why Open Dev? To gather feedback from the players and make the game with the community. The scenarios allow them to get some more "laser focused" feedback on specific aspects of the game that are the focus of the scenarios.

Scenario 1: It's coming up very soon. Not giving away too much, it's focused on city building, territory management, and exploration, playing as the Babylonians trying to build Babylon. The scenario has been custom built to be pretty good. It starts on not quite turn one.

Scenario 2: Focused on battles. Bitesized scenarios within scenarios. Sadistic pleasure was taken in setting up the battles, which are quite tricky. Some are quite hard, done so in order to show off mechanics such as flanking, high ground, and using rivers and forests. From this, they're hoping to learn what was understood, what wasn't, and what needed improving.

Scenario 3: They had a lot of fun on this one. The scenarios are all in rising difficulty, so the final scenario is the most difficult. If you beat it, wear it as a badge of honor. They expect to see lots of discussion on how people beat it. The final game likely won't be as difficult as some of these encounters play out though.

How valuable is scenario feedback? Since the dev team is in a "developer vacuum," player feedback is vital. They want clear data from players to find what they find is most important, what they want changed, what they didn't understand, and what they loved, because positive feedback is always welcome too. Hold nothing back, the good, the bad, and the ugly.

Questions from Chat:

Do independent people evolve over time?
In the beginning, there are ancient era independent peoples, throughout the game, new independent peoples will emerge based on the era. How they evolve, they can't go too deep on it at the present time.

How long of intervals will there be between the Open Dev Scenarios?
A week between each.

Will the first scenario involve combat?
This was actually a big question. It was originally to be purely focused on city building and the like, but they did include some animals for you to kill.

Will their be Diplomacy in Open Dev?
No, unfortunately. It's still being worked on, and they'd rather not include them in the Open Dev because it may dilute the feedback they're looking for.

Are we going to see feedback results implemented earlier than final release?
The information is not yet to be shared.

How does one get involved in playing?
Sign up with to join the Open Dev!

Exploration was teased with ruins and whatnot on land, is their similar stuff at sea?
There are indeed shipwrecks to find, and oil deposits can be found at sea as well.

I wanna play the Aztecs!
No Aztecs available in the pre-build scenarios to play as. The levels are pre-built specifically for the scenarios, so it would be awkward to switch it around so you could play the Aztecs as opposed to the English who are designed to be the played culture.

Do battles have a turn limit?
Yes. Humankind's depends on the number of units that are included in the battle itself. So early battles of like 2 units may only last a single turn. Late game fights may last many turns.

Press Release didn't have religion. Will we see it in Open Dev?
No, like diplomacy, they don't want to dilute the feedback that is specifically about early game city building and the like. Eventually, you'll get to give them a go.

Will there be a more open demo eventually, like the first 50 turns?
The First Scenario is very similar to this. The end is more open, just the beginning isn't.

In the full release, will we be able to customize our flag and colors like we can customize our leader?
Can't talk about how the leader is designed just yet, the mock ups for the lobby and the like are still work in progress, no promises just yet. An off screen Frenchman does confirm you get to choose your Emblem.

Will we get to play the Scenarios again after we play them?
Y E S.

A quick apology is made to press and content creators for the mispronunciation of "hoplite" as "hop-i-lite." Apologies all around for mispronunciations. The names they try and select are as authentic as possible to the culture, and there was some philosophical debate around some names, as they don't want people to be completely lost. But with the icon, art, and brief description, they think they've minimized potential confusion.

Can we stream or post AARs of the open dev on socials and forums?
Yes! You are encouraged to do so! They are meant to be challenging for "regular people" not super geniuses, so they're expecting things like "I beat the open dev fights without losing a single unit!"

Are the open dev tests going to be same for all participants or are there going to A/B styled testing with some people trying slightly different things?
No, all scenarios are same for everybody. They're trying to get pinpointed feedback on specifics as opposed to lots of comments about lots of different stuffs.

If you're accepted into one scenario, will you get into all scenarios?
Yes. If you get selected for an early scenario, you get access to all the scenarios, and if you're selected later on, you can still go back and play previous scenarios.

One last thing about the open devs. There is a questionnaire at the end of the scenarios, the devs worked hard to figure out what and how to ask the questions, so please fill them out to your best of your abilities.

4x themed rapid fire questions!

Favorite Ancient Era Culture to play as? Carthage. Loves setting up ports! Off screen Frenchman with the save, pointing out Carthage is Classical. The answer is Phoenicians then. Hittites are fun too, good for rushing. It's possibly a good idea to take some neighbors down a peg before making money (in the following era.)

Resource you prioritize early game? Industry first, money second. Tries to get horses quickly so they can be used to explore and grab curiosities.

What type of 4x player do you hate playing against? Ironically since rushing was just talked about, rushers. A gentlemanly engagement is preferred. Like the Emu War, says the off screen Frenchman.

Aggressive or Diplomatic? Diplomatic, but depends on the mood. Talk softly but carry a big stick.

Apologies on the Ancient/Classical slip up. He's still struggling to get the names straight as they were still different for half the development.

Two more questions!

What Civilization is best for those who despise fighting? Since you're choosing a new culture each era, aesthetes and merchants are perhaps best for "non-violent" play. There are plenty of choices, and many cultural building blocks that you can use to create a "pacifist" civilization. There's also plenty of opportunities to pivot. Like starting as the Hittites to rush neighbors, and if you succeeded or failed, you can go merchant in the next era as a reaction to that. You can also plan ahead in order to get more fame, say you've taken out a neighbor so there's a large section of territory for you expand into, so you can pick an Expansionist culture in the next era to reap more fame. Expansionists cultures are not necessarily military focused, by the way.

What is it like to play as the Harrappans? The Canal District sounds fun to play with. Yeah, the Canal district essentially allows you to build rivers, and if you play your cards right, you can get some crazy benefits.

Open Dev is very soon btw. Keep your eyes on your emails. Might be in the junk mail.

What if? Contest Winners. The Theme of the week was Rules.

The winners are judged in four different categories. Originality, Adherence to the Theme, Dev Crush, and a sort of "Grand Winner."

memes

A thank you for joining, all the questions, Open Dev is very soon. They're streaming something tomorrow so pop back in if you like Humankind. Like favorite subscribe all that jazz.

And that's it.

# ? Jul 30, 2020 09:22

Tree Bucket: Apr 1, 2016; R.I.P.idura leucophrys

webmeister posted:

Bravely stolen from Reddit:

I wish to know more of this "off-screen Frenchman"

# ? Jul 30, 2020 12:13

Aerdan: Apr 14, 2012; Not Dennis NEDry

https://twitter.com/humankindgame/status/1288852198961676290

Gameplay live stream.

# ? Jul 30, 2020 16:42

Kazzah: Jul 15, 2011; Formerly known as
Krazyface; Hair Elf

Opendev's up; I didn't get an invite. Ah, well. Some screenshots of the early-game tech tree here

# ? Jul 31, 2020 01:18

Tree Bucket: Apr 1, 2016; R.I.P.idura leucophrys

That is a pretty tech tree.

# ? Jul 31, 2020 01:47

Davincie: Jul 7, 2008

i got in and theres no nda

# ? Jul 31, 2020 22:21

Tree Bucket: Apr 1, 2016; R.I.P.idura leucophrys

Davincie posted:

i got in and theres no nda

Care to d anything, since there's no a saying you must n?
Wait that sounds weird

# ? Aug 1, 2020 02:56

webmeister: Jan 31, 2007; The answer is, mate, because I want to do you slowly. There has to be a bit of sport in this for all of us. In the psychological battle stakes, we are stripped down and ready to go. I want to see those ashen-faced performances; I want more of them. I want to be encouraged. I want to see you squirm.

Yeah I'm curious to hear some experiences as well. There's a full playthrough of the first scenario on YouTube here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0TY0Tehb7aA

But the guy isn't a great streamer and the video quality was awful when I watched as well.

# ? Aug 1, 2020 03:14

appropriatemetaphor: Jan 26, 2006

I got in, installing.

This guy has a better look at the content:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74TdVeujXY4

# ? Aug 1, 2020 05:02

Tree Bucket: Apr 1, 2016; R.I.P.idura leucophrys

Oh hey, I got in too.
Scenario 1 doesn't seem to have any rival civs or barbarians or whatever; it's just Babylon and a scout unit. It's honestly a weird choice for first civ in that their special ability lets you learn a new tech basically every single turn, with the result that you end up staring at a huge and bewildering list of improvements that you'll never actually be able to build. Combat is limited to your scouts beating up some reindeer, which felt kind of weird. The map is beautiful to explore, which is good, because the random bonus thingies scattered around the map give really underwhelming bonuses that don't seem to interact with the quest/decision system at all.
I was hoping to get a look at the political axes system that's been mentioned, but that doesn't seem to be part of this scenario.

Pros:
Pretty map. Excellent map gen- there's no "boring" stretches of useless continent.

Yields are nice and juicy- buildings generally have effects like +5 Food rather than that tedious +1 stuff.

OUTPOOOOOOSTS. Remember founding new cities in Civ 5, how the game actively hated you? How it'd take dozens of turns to build the settler, a dozen more to transport it, followed by 38 turns of building your first granary? Instead, Humankind has an Outpost system. Soldiers can spend a bit of cash to plonk an Outpost down in neutral territory. That's it, it's yours now! Then you can spend more money to have the outpost act as a little colony, extracting a specific resource, or you can pay a bit more to make it into a full city. I really, really like this system.

Cons:
The UI feels characterless and kind of confusing, but I always get that feeling when playing a 4X for the first time. Maybe it's actually fine and my brain is wrong.

Battling reindeer feels kind of weird...

# ? Aug 1, 2020 05:14

Kazzah: Jul 15, 2011; Formerly known as
Krazyface; Hair Elf

Krazyface posted:

Opendev's up; I didn't get an invite. Ah, well. Some screenshots of the early-game tech tree here

Turns out I didn't wait long enough; I did get in. Played through the scenario twice.

It's pretty good. Expansion feels good; you don't have to spend ages building settler units; instead you just need some soldiers and a lot of gold, and your soldiers tend to make money just by being out in the field. I like that you can claim land cheaply without fully settling it; the second go around, I was able to hook up some distant coffee and marble.

I fought a couple "battles" against the animals, all of them of my own choice; the animals (in this scenario at least) just leave you alone. They were kind of time-consuming, especially since I couldn't find the option to speed up animations. I preferred the direct command over Endless Legend's implementation.

The Babylonians are alright. Their unique soldier seems quite strong, although you need copper to actually build them, which is fair. The unique astronomy house quarter was a bit disappointing. On the face of it, an early-game district that generates both food and science from the surrounding tiles sounds great, but there was hardly any science on the map, so there wasn't much advantage over a regular farmer's quarter. Plus, the farmer's quarter has a bunch of adjacency interactions with the other quarters that the AH doesn't, so it felt like a bit of a trap choice. The other Babylonian ability, the mode where they can turn a city's hammer/gold production into science, is good as hell, and lets you get a tech every turn or two quite easily (which is good, because I occasionally found myself without anything good to spend my production on).

Anyway, there are a lot of terms that aren't explained very well, and I don't really understand what happens to a tile's yields when you build a city extension over it. The post-demo questionnaire had a bunch of questions about which of the game's systems I actually engaged with (for instance, I didn't do any forest-chopping at all). Overall, an interesting time.

# ? Aug 1, 2020 06:55

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# ? Jun 7, 2024 08:07

Davincie: Jul 7, 2008

Krazyface posted:

Anyway, there are a lot of terms that aren't explained very well, and I don't really understand what happens to a tile's yields when you build a city extension over it.

it should have a little popup right over the tile, and any other neighbouring tiles that might be effected.

everyone here seems to have gone for science, i stubbornly did food and production instead and was cranking out a new building every other turn while still getting enough tech to never run out of stuff to build. almost every extension seems to rely on adjacency bonuses, which im not that big a fan of. requires a lot of planning ahead, especially when you can't see the entire tech tree. art was good, tech quotes were uninspired but overall a few turns is not enough to make a real impression of the game.

i got 1 event, about musicians. gave 2 choices both of which had its own bonus (production vs science/gold) and then later followed it up with another small bonus, although the ui wouldn't actually say what it was. the ui itself i found very busy in general, i've seen better

# ? Aug 1, 2020 10:14

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