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Who will you vote for in 2020? This poll is closed. |
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|---|---|---|---|
| Biden |
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425 | 18.06% |
| Trump |
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105 | 4.46% |
| whoever the Green Party runs |
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307 | 13.05% |
| GOOGLE RON PAUL |
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151 | 6.42% |
| Bernie Sanders |
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346 | 14.70% |
| Stalin |
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246 | 10.45% |
| Satan |
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300 | 12.75% |
| Nobody |
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202 | 8.58% |
| Jess Scarane |
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110 | 4.67% |
| mystery man Brian Carroll of the American Solidarity Party |
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61 | 2.59% |
| Dick Nixon |
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100 | 4.25% |
| Total: | 2089 votes | ||
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joepinetree posted:They bring out the dreamers as props like clockwork. And at this point I am pretty sure that the people who did it have read the million posts showing why that is wrong. Nobody is doing this. The immigrant rights organizations I am part of (ADAC, USEE) were formed under the Obama/Biden admin expressly to push for change to their regressive policies and advocate for a meaningful way forward. This was pre-DACA, when the “deporter in chief” machine was at its height. However, what is actually being contested is repeated unfounded assertions that Dreamers see no difference between Biden and Trump, or that their expectation that their life would be meaningful more stable under a Biden admin than the current is somehow ignorant to the reality they themselves live with daily. It’s really as simple as that. None of the Dreamers I work with are expecting to be happy and settled in a Biden admin. There will be protests, legal work, and bill advocacy from day one of his admin as well. In the meantime, those same dreamers are fighting like hell to ensure Trump doesn’t get re-elected, and there is a reason for that.
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Aug 11, 2020 16:40
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Rainbow Knight posted:i feel like the difference in policy between the two presidencies comes down to biden doing what his donors want vs trump doing what trump wants. so is what trump wants worse than what biden's donors want? 
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Aug 11, 2020 16:46
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LegendaryFrog posted:Nobody is doing this. Even if you do immigrants rights work for a community of DACA recipients that does not make you able to make blanket statements on their feelings. Again, it is the cruelty of minimal action that we are discussing here. Biden will not be like Trump completely, much like Obama was not "as bad" as Trump. But, then again, when the concentration camps were opened by Obama, the excuse of "not as bad" seems to start to be more of a technicality. A moderate nativist action is still a nativist action . The horror you are viewing here, is that while Biden may slow down, he will likely not end DACA, enabling the next fascist to get in line to again victimize them.
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Aug 11, 2020 16:51
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Rainbow Knight posted:i feel like the difference in policy between the two presidencies comes down to biden doing what his donors want vs trump doing what trump wants. so is what trump wants worse than what biden's donors want? Please; put any articulate rich person in a room with Trump for 10 minutes and what he wants becomes what Trump wants. Even if your intent isn’t to lionize him, and I know it’s not, you’re kind of buying into Trump’s own brand as “iconoclast rebel”, when he’s probably the most suggestible person to ever hold his office. His only coherent political belief is that non-white people and foreigners are playing us all for chumps. Everything he’s ever said beyond that, some other rich d-bag put it in his head. Mellow Seas fucked around with this message at 16:57 on Aug 11, 2020 |
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Aug 11, 2020 16:53
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I am at the point that I don't think things can get any better. There are too many deceived republicans voting against their best interests and too many liberals that will accept a kick in the nuts just because the republicans will do it twice. It really is true that we can't have nice things. All we can do is hope that people gently caress up in office so it takes longer for the wealth and prosperity to be drawn upwards.
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Aug 11, 2020 16:57
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Famethrowa posted:Even if you do immigrants rights work for a community of DACA recipients that does not make you able to make blanket statements on their feelings. "Even if"  I'd agree.... which is also why I don't see anyone in this thread doing that, except on the one probated post I was responding to in the first place. Famethrowa posted:Again, it is the cruelty of minimal action that we are discussing here. Biden will not be like Trump completely, much like Obama was not "as bad" as Trump. But, then again, when the concentration camps were opened by Obama, the excuse of "not as bad" seems to start to be more of a technicality. A moderate nativist action is still a nativist action . If people stopped saying "Biden is just as bad as Trump", especially when using Dreamers as a weird citation for that.... only to retreat back into some form of this "Well okay, not actually, but Biden is still bad"... perhaps then this same circular conversation wouldn't keep happening in this thread. LegendaryFrog fucked around with this message at 17:14 on Aug 11, 2020 |
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Aug 11, 2020 17:02
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Rainbow Knight posted:i feel like the difference in policy between the two presidencies comes down to biden doing what his donors want vs trump doing what trump wants. so is what trump wants worse than what biden's donors want? Yes, unequivocally. E: Still doesn't mean vote Biden but if that's your criteria Trump's whims are unequivocally worse than Biden's donor's desires. It's a stupid standard. Relevant Tangent fucked around with this message at 17:12 on Aug 11, 2020 |
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Aug 11, 2020 17:09
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LegendaryFrog posted:Nobody is doing this. Hey, if we're going to go down this route, I am an immigrant from Latin America who primarily advises undocumented students (my best student couldn't even qualify for DACA). Here's the post that started this whole thread: enraged_camel posted:I think these types of posts are not very helpful because a presidency that might result in a 1% difference for you might result in a 50% difference for someone else. At the end of the day it completely depends on how directly and deeply you are affected by the policies of an administration. I know several DACA recipients who will take a very deep sigh of relief if Biden is elected, for example. So it is presumptions to make blanket assertions regarding "overall impact" or some other unmeasurable metric. Just blatantly dragging out dreamers as props. And then you decided to pipe in: LegendaryFrog posted:Every part of this is wrong, except the part where you got probated for it. Except you are blatantly wrong. Child detention centers WERE set up during the Obama Biden administration. This much is indisputable (the difference being, as I said, that Obama preferred to expedite deportations rather than separate children). Biden DID tell a dreamer to vote for Trump when confronted. Trying to fall back on this "well, they aren't exactly the same in every way" bullshit is tiring, and if you really cared about dreamers you wouldn't be ok with constantly dragging them out as props. EDIT: And that is not even getting into the fact that so much of the surge in immigration from Central America comes from the coup orchestrated with the help of Hillary, and now we're all supposed to be cheering for the campaign that is supported by Henry Kissinger and Ana Navarro, daughter of Contra.
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Aug 11, 2020 17:13
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LegendaryFrog posted:If people stopped saying "Biden is just as bad as Trump", especially when using Dreamers as a weird citation for that.... only to retreat back into some form of this "Well okay, not actually, but Biden is still bad"... perhaps then this same circular conversation wouldn't keep happening in this thread. "Biden is as bad as Trump" is a perfectly acceptable thought to have, for the reasons stated by myself and others. It may not be as shaded in nuance as you may want, but it is an understandable thing to think. For the topic at hand, I personally think the difference between Trump and Biden is really a technicality. It is also a thought that yes, some Dreamers may also have, and you speaking for them as a homogenous group is something I will continue dismissing out of hand. LegendaryFrog posted:"Even if" fwiw, I do believe that you do advocacy work for DACA recipients. I am glad for that, genuinely think it is a great thing to do, and I appreciate you being out there. that is not what I am addressing. Famethrowa fucked around with this message at 17:19 on Aug 11, 2020 |
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Aug 11, 2020 17:15
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Mellow Seas posted:Please; put any articulate rich person in a room with Trump for 10 minutes and what he wants becomes what Trump wants. I think this is the point RK is making -- Trump's wants are dictated by whatever rich guy he held his last meeting with because they were nice to him and suggested that everyone would love him if he deregulated waste dumping in rivers. Biden's policy positions are dictated by Very Important meetings with the United Business Council of Waste Dumping in Rivers for American Prosperity where conference rooms full of people look at Powerpoint stacks very thoughtfully and then agree that it would be in the nation's best interest to support deregulation of waste dumping in rivers.
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Aug 11, 2020 17:17
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joepinetree posted:if you really cared about dreamers... Don't do this. Famethrowa posted:"Biden is as bad as Trump" is a perfectly acceptable thought to have, for the reasons stated by myself and others. It may not be as shaded in nuance as you may want, but it is an understandable thing to think. For the topic at hand, I personally think the difference between Trump and Biden is really a technicality. Sure, there are few "unacceptable thoughts". And I appreciate that people look at one steaming pile of poo poo, and then glance over at the swimming pool of acid, and come to the conclusion that the nuance of the badness between them is really irrelevant when you would rather not throw yourself into either. But it's also an acceptable thing for people to think that four more years of Trump will make their individual lives appreciably worse than the practical alternative, and what appears to be a technicality to you borders on existential for them. What I object to is that attitude/thought being dismissed as "well clearly they are just ignorant of how bad Obama was..."
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Aug 11, 2020 17:35
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LegendaryFrog posted:Don't do this. Absolutely, and I can appreciate that. I just really want to avoid conversations that gloss over how loving dire this internal struggle must be one way or another. Right now, I am expressing rage at the fact that the democrats have again put them in this situation. Surely you have some understanding of that, given your professional experience. quote:What I object to is that attitude/thought being dismissed as "well clearly they are just ignorant of how bad Obama was..." If that's how I came across, I do apologize. I think that is a tremendously lovely point to make and would hope anyone criticizing Biden realizes how garbage of a take that is. Famethrowa fucked around with this message at 17:48 on Aug 11, 2020 |
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Aug 11, 2020 17:44
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Pentecoastal Elites posted:I think this is the point RK is making -- Trump's wants are dictated by whatever rich guy he held his last meeting with because they were nice to him and suggested that everyone would love him if he deregulated waste dumping in rivers. Biden's policy positions are dictated by Very Important meetings with the United Business Council of Waste Dumping in Rivers for American Prosperity where conference rooms full of people look at Powerpoint stacks very thoughtfully and then agree that it would be in the nation's best interest to support deregulation of waste dumping in rivers. I get your point, but waste dumping in rivers is a really bad example of Obama/Biden and Trump/Republicans being the same.
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Aug 11, 2020 17:55
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LegendaryFrog posted:Don't do this. This entire discussion started when Biden supporters decided to use dreamers as props out of the blue. You don't get to do this when defending people using them as props.
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Aug 11, 2020 17:57
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Famethrowa posted:Right now, I am expressing rage at the fact that the democrats have again put them in this situation. Surely you have some understanding of that, given your professional experience. That rage is more than justified. Personally the primary season felt like "snatching defeat from the jaws of victory" a moment for the democratic party as any moment I can remember, and that's saying something given the collective attachment democrats have to shooting themselves in the foot. Biden probably had the best shot at winning against Trump in general, but given the tenor of this election there was a real opportunity to appreciably move this country forward that was whiffed. It means that progressive change is going to continue being a hard fought brawl clawing our way forward through incredible opposition, just like it always has been. That was going to be true even under a President Sanders, but Biden as nominee really crystallizes that the fight will never be anything other than a fight.
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Aug 11, 2020 17:58
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Famethrowa posted:Absolutely, and I can appreciate that. I just really want to avoid conversations that gloss over how loving dire this internal struggle must be one way or another. Right now, I am expressing rage at the fact that the democrats have again put them in this situation. Surely you have some understanding of that, given your professional experience. A relevant take, I think: https://twitter.com/Tonya_Song/status/1292975716787605504
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Aug 11, 2020 17:59
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Saying "hey I personally know some Dreamers who see a massive difference between Trump and Biden, and dismissing them and their lived experience is a little insulting and/or ignorant" is not the same thing as "using them as props" IMO.
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Aug 11, 2020 18:01
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joepinetree posted:This entire discussion started when Biden supporters decided to use dreamers as props out of the blue. You don't get to do this when defending people using them as props. Articulating that people might have concerns that lead them to a different analysis of the election than yours is not "using them as props", and I don't see how "Ackshully I am right about this because I advise undocumented students  " is any less "prop-using". Why is it so hard for you to have a single conversation without projecting hostility all over the place?
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Aug 11, 2020 18:03
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joepinetree posted:This entire discussion started when Biden supporters decided to use dreamers as props out of the blue. You don't get to do this when defending people using them as props. "I know several DACA recipients who will take a very deep sigh of relief if Biden is elected, for example." That's the sole dreamer line in the post you are referring to. Which was responded to with MonsieurChoc posted:These DACA recipient will mtake a deep sigh of relief and then still get thrown into a concentration camp by the Gestapo you dumb rear end in a top hat. THAT'S THE POINT! More fundamentally, telling someone "you don't care about X group" because they disagree with you is bad form, even leaving aside the thousands of hours I have put in working to make our Country even a little bit more livable for that group. Don't do it.
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Aug 11, 2020 18:05
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LegendaryFrog posted:"I know several DACA recipients who will take a very deep sigh of relief if Biden is elected, for example." The problem is that these lines of argument are being used in response to people rejecting and expressing distaste for Biden and the Democratic Party. There's not really any way to read them other than an implied "therefore you're wrong and bad for not supporting Biden." You're painting the situation as if people just randomly brought this up and other people started rejecting it, but that isn't what happened. It was extremely obviously brought up in an attempt to defend the value in supporting Biden.
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Aug 11, 2020 18:11
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LegendaryFrog posted:"I know several DACA recipients who will take a very deep sigh of relief if Biden is elected, for example." And that is precisely an example of using dreamers as props. It is doing precisely what you claim to object to. Note that my statement of "you don't care about dreamers" wasnt about supporting or not supporting Biden, but using them as props. You can make whatever points you want to make about Biden without using dreamers as props, and it is bizarre that you object to me saying that people shouldn't use them as props, but not the using of them as props.
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Aug 11, 2020 18:17
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Ytlaya posted:The problem is that these lines of argument are being used in response to people rejecting and expressing distaste for Biden and the Democratic Party. There's not really any way to read them other than an implied "therefore you're wrong and bad for not supporting Biden." I'm only going to push on this to make a larger point about the absurd level of strawmanning that goes on in this thread but... This is the post you are referring to. enraged_camel posted:I think these types of posts are not very helpful because a presidency that might result in a 1% difference for you might result in a 50% difference for someone else. At the end of the day it completely depends on how directly and deeply you are affected by the policies of an administration. I know several DACA recipients who will take a very deep sigh of relief if Biden is elected, for example. So it is presumptions to make blanket assertions regarding "overall impact" or some other unmeasurable metric. which was responding to... MonsieurChoc posted:Pro-Biden people need to grow up and realize we are not living in a Saturday Morning Cartoon. Trump is not Lex Luthor. Biden is not your friend. By any metric that matters, the 2020 election IS ALREADY LOST. You are going to get completely hosed over on Healthcare, Climate Change and Racial Justice for the next four years no matter who wins. It will be, at best, a 1% difference. Now, maybe you actually interpret Enraged Camel's post saying what I believe amounts to "I don't like posts that assert there there is no difference between Trump and Biden as an objective truth of the universe. Different people in different situations have different perspectives on that, and the perspectives matter" and that reads to you as "therefore you're wrong and bad for not supporting Biden." However, I don't think that is a remotely reasonable interpretation of that post, much less an "extremely obvious" one. joepinetree posted:And that is precisely an example of using dreamers as props. It is doing precisely what you claim to object to. Note that my statement of "you don't care about dreamers" wasnt about supporting or not supporting Biden, but using them as props. You can make whatever points you want to make about Biden without using dreamers as props, and it is bizarre that you object to me saying that people shouldn't use them as props, but not the using of them as props. I guess we are just going to disagree about whether someone else stating "I know some people that feel differently than you" amounts to using an entire group as a prop. Seems kind of absurd to me. LegendaryFrog fucked around with this message at 18:26 on Aug 11, 2020 |
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Aug 11, 2020 18:19
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LegendaryFrog posted:"I know several DACA recipients who will take a very deep sigh of relief if Biden is elected, for example." I know several immigrants who think immigrants are lazy parasites, who gives a poo poo, anecdotes don't mean poo poo, I thought that was like the one good thing of this nerdlinger forum, that you had to use actual evidence and poo poo and not 'well I know someone'
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Aug 11, 2020 18:27
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Famethrowa posted:"Biden is as bad as Trump" is a perfectly acceptable thought to have, for the reasons stated by myself and others. It may not be as shaded in nuance as you may want, but it is an understandable thing to think. For the topic at hand, I personally think the difference between Trump and Biden is really a technicality. How about putting it this way. The problems endemic in our society will still be there whether or not Biden is president or Trump is president. Rich people will still control everything. We still won't have universal healthcare. We still won't have government mandated maternity leave. Our infrastrcuture will still be crumbling. Most everyone will still be living paycheck to paycheck. We still won't be doing enough about the environment. Our police will still be throwing people in prison because it makes people money. Our Judicial system will still favor the wealthy in a significant way. Our tax system still won't have the resources to go after white collar criminals Why? Because they both Trump and Biden serve the wealthy. They don't care about us. Yeah some small stuff around the edges will change but when you break it all down most people are still hosed regardless. They just get to fade away not being as mad.
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Aug 11, 2020 18:30
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sexpig by night posted:I know several immigrants who think immigrants are lazy parasites, who gives a poo poo, anecdotes don't mean poo poo, I thought that was like the one good thing of this nerdlinger forum, that you had to use actual evidence and poo poo and not 'well I know someone' Given that the post you are referring to appeared to be making the simple argument "some people have different perspectives and life experiences, and that perspective shapes how much of a difference they see between Trump and Biden", then yes, outlining an example of that would constitute evidence... of the thing that shouldn't be remotely controversial. ManBoyChef posted:How about putting it this way. The problems endemic in our society will still be there whether or not Biden is president or Trump is president. Rich people will still control everything. We still won't have universal healthcare. We still won't have government mandated maternity leave. Our infrastrcuture will still be crumbling. Most everyone will still be living paycheck to paycheck. We still won't be doing enough about the environment. Our police will still be throwing people in prison because it makes people money. Our Judicial system will still favor the wealthy in a significant way. Our tax system still won't have the resources to go after white collar criminals Why? Because they both Trump and Biden serve the wealthy. They don't care about us. Yeah some small stuff around the edges will change but when you break it all down most people are still hosed regardless. They just get to fade away not being as mad. Sure, but no election was ever going to fix all of those problems, regardless of who wins. It's going to take a lot of continued hard work and fighting for every inch, which entails remaining active and not giving into despair and "nothing matters"ism. LegendaryFrog fucked around with this message at 18:34 on Aug 11, 2020 |
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Aug 11, 2020 18:31
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What I get from this election is the shrilling cries of Khive. All I desire, mana from heaven. Joe Biden will be a care-taker and those types of presidents are never necessary to be active nor dynamic.
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Aug 11, 2020 18:32
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LegendaryFrog posted:That rage is more than justified. Personally the primary season felt like "snatching defeat from the jaws of victory" a moment for the democratic party as any moment I can remember, and that's saying something given the collective attachment democrats have to shooting themselves in the foot. It shouldn't be this way. We shouldn't have two pro corporate republican parties.
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Aug 11, 2020 18:34
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ManBoyChef posted:It shouldn't be this way. We shouldn't have two pro corporate republican parties. Then your choices are either to try and reform one of the two parties within, or change our electoral system (both election laws and campaign finance laws) to allow for a multi-party system of some kind. Given then I haven't heard any great suggestions about how you do the latter without getting the former done first, that will be the tactic I continue to try and take.
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Aug 11, 2020 18:36
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LegendaryFrog posted:Given that the post you are referring to appeared to be making the simple argument "some people have different perspectives and life experiences, and that perspective shapes how much of a difference they see between Trump and Biden", then yes, outlining an example of that would constitute evidence... of the thing that shouldn't be remotely controversial. And if someone then trotted out other immigrants who think that there is no different between Biden and Trump, what then? This is an unanswerable claim. One designed to kill debate. It is using people as props, as hostages. I am an immigrant, and also someone who lost an uncle in a US sponsored dictatorship. Do I get to just just say "I think this" and expect people to be convinced of something? Like, this is literally using people as props to avoid having to make your point. It is a short cut to avoid having to make an argument. Instead of having to argue why Biden will be better for immigrants, we can just short circuit the entire conversation by saying "well, I know some immigrants who really want biden to win." And it is unanswerable, because if we conceive of immigrants, of dreamers, as fully realized people, with thoughts and ideas of their own, then yeah, obviously some are going to be very supportive of Biden. Some will be supportive of neither. Some will even be supportive of Trump. None of them should be used as your "I win" button in debates.
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Aug 11, 2020 18:40
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LegendaryFrog posted:More fundamentally, telling someone "you don't care about X group" because they disagree with you is bad form, even leaving aside the thousands of hours I have put in working to make our Country even a little bit more livable for that group. Don't do it. Nah, I'm still right about this. The Democrats and Republicans have been loving people over in bipartisan fashion for decades, and this includes the immigrant concentration camps. Trying to say Biden will treat immigrants better when it is patently false is a bold-faced lie. I mean Biden wasn't even willing to say he'd destroy/stop building the wall when asked about it in an interview. This is the guy we're dealing with it here. Edit: I got angry because I care about this. I care a whole lot.
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Aug 11, 2020 18:45
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joepinetree posted:And if someone then trotted out other immigrants who think that there is no different between Biden and Trump, what then? I'm just going to keep posting the post you are referring to, which pretty much stands on its own to reveal how absurd it is that you keep standing by this point, especially in reference to a post that said... "I think these types of posts are not very helpful because a presidency that might result in a 1% difference for you might result in a 50% difference for someone else. At the end of the day it completely depends on how directly and deeply you are affected by the policies of an administration. I know several DACA recipients who will take a very deep sigh of relief if Biden is elected, for example. So it is presumptions to make blanket assertions regarding "overall impact" or some other unmeasurable metric."
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Aug 11, 2020 18:45
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LegendaryFrog posted:Given that the post you are referring to appeared to be making the simple argument "some people have different perspectives and life experiences, and that perspective shapes how much of a difference they see between Trump and Biden", then yes, outlining an example of that would constitute evidence... of the thing that shouldn't be remotely controversial. you are right. I just feel so much despair because I have watched things just get progressively worse over time. I am excited for Jen Perlman in Florida. We need to add more people to the squad if we are ever going to have a caucus that can stand up to the worst inclinations of the establishment E: wording ManBoyChef fucked around with this message at 18:52 on Aug 11, 2020 |
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Aug 11, 2020 18:45
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ManBoyChef posted:you are right. I just feel so much despair because I have watched things just get progressively worse over time. The good politicians often are fought so hard by the establishment. I'm actually going to vote in the primary in florida today. I am really hoping jen Perlman wins her primary God speed. Relish every opportunity to take a stab at making something better, no matter how small the impact or remote the likelyhood.
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Aug 11, 2020 18:48
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I would also be willing to give a lot more credence to the idea of incremental change if the entire Obama presidency hadn't disproved that.
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Aug 11, 2020 18:53
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Or if we had time to increment. We are kind of short on that, between climate apocalypse and the rising fascist tide.
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Aug 11, 2020 18:55
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StratGoatCom posted:Or if we had time to increment. General ignorance about just how bad things are going to get this decade is a huge problem.
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Aug 11, 2020 18:59
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Harold Fjord posted:General ignorance about just how bad things are going to get this decade is a huge problem. The Uninhabitable Earth: Life After Warming is a book that would quickly dispel any illusions that things will end up being 'mostly okay'. I'm hopeful that the HBO series gives the ideas and data a wider audience. https://earther.gizmodo.com/hbo-max-is-turning-the-uninhabitable-earth-into-a-ficti-1841048114
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Aug 11, 2020 19:06
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Mellow Seas posted:Please; put any articulate rich person in a room with Trump for 10 minutes and what he wants becomes what Trump wants. i'm just saying that he's unhinged, not that he's a badass rebel. he might be suggestible, but he's also a dumb idiot who will capsize the whole thing just to deal with some petty drama. Relevant Tangent posted:Yes, unequivocally. i'd say that trump's tantrums are definitely a point in biden's favor, but what i'm really getting at can probably be boiled down to this: what happens when joe biden's donors decide that they need a little bit more time with the pandemic, or a little bit more money for police death squads, or a little bit more money to back a central/south american coup? what will be different about the presidencies then?
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Aug 11, 2020 19:07
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Or when we get another Nixon To China moment for something from Biden.
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Aug 11, 2020 19:10
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Harold Fjord posted:General ignorance about just how bad things are going to get this decade is a huge problem. We are already experiencing lots of climate problems. It is only going to get worse. I love my son but I feel like I have done something wrong bringing him into the world. I wonder how many parents of kids feel this way?
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Aug 11, 2020 19:12
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