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Angry Salami posted:And just because you've ruled one type of artificial life is a sapient being, that doesn't mean every other type of artificial life would automatically get the same benefits, and it'd be silly if it did. Data's a completely different type of technology to the EMH; it'd make more sense to rule that if Data's a sapient being, so's the Enterprise computer. I will say the difference between the EMH and Data is that Data applied to Starfleet Academy, and took the oath, and I suppose had to be legally acknowledged as capable of recognizing what the oath means. The Enterprise's computer and the EMH were both software built/acquired by Starfleet as, well, literally accountable property. That being said, what should happen in any... idk, realistic from an organization or bureaucratic perspective would be "oh Voyager is reporting significant sapient development on the part of its EMH, it's possible the EMH may be self-aware and sentient but it doesn't necessarily mean the rest are and what do we do now". It would have been a nifty throwback for Maddox to show up again because this is a different venue to achieving his goals not using a positronic brain and he would have wanted to study the Doctor.
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Aug 25, 2020 21:59
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V-Men posted:... It would have been a nifty throwback for Maddox to show up again because this is a different venue to achieving his goals not using a positronic brain and he would have wanted to study the Doctor. Maddox showing up to the rights hearing on the Pro-EMH is a person side would have been a pretty great development.
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Aug 25, 2020 22:30
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The most nonsensical thing is why even use medical holograms to do hard labor when you can just have robots do it instead? I guess because holograms can't get damaged?
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Aug 25, 2020 23:09
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V-Men posted:The most nonsensical thing is why even use medical holograms to do hard labor when you can just have robots do it instead? I guess because holograms can't get damaged?
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Aug 25, 2020 23:18
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V-Men posted:The most nonsensical thing is why even use medical holograms to do hard labor when you can just have robots do it instead? I guess because holograms can't get damaged? Using medical holograms as doctors doesn't make logical sense, but it's not really a logical thing. The Federation simply sees them as a tool that can fulfill a purpose.
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Aug 25, 2020 23:29
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multijoe posted:
That's just the writers handwaving that element of the story away because they don't have the runtime to deal with it. e: ^^ the real question is, why use self-aware holograms when they could use non-self-aware ones Alchenar fucked around with this message at 23:45 on Aug 25, 2020 |
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Aug 25, 2020 23:38
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Alchenar posted:e: ^^ the real question is, why use self-aware holograms when they could use non-self-aware ones Like, the scientist guy from Measure of a Man breaks into Data's room without permission. He sees Data's room is full of books and other media, and that one of the things Data is packing for the transfer is a book of Shakespeare plays. Absolutely none of this convinces him to see Data as a person. Sash! posted:You know good and well what I mean. SardonicTyrant fucked around with this message at 00:14 on Aug 26, 2020 |
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Aug 25, 2020 23:56
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"Self-Awareness" is basically a black box indistinguishable from "The illusion of self-awareness," so the only moral course is to treat anything that demonstrates the external factors we associate with it as having it.
Owlbear Camus fucked around with this message at 00:42 on Aug 26, 2020 |
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Aug 26, 2020 00:10
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In one episode, the Doctor gets stuck on an alien planet for a few decades (but due to technobable it's only like an hour for Voyager) and in a throwaway line he mentions he had a son. So for a few decades the Doctor blended in well enough that no one on this planet was the wiser and he managed to raise a child.
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Aug 26, 2020 00:30
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Sash! posted:I'll never agree with the idea. They're machines. Smart machines, but machines. They possess no free will, even if they can mimic free will very well.
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Aug 26, 2020 00:46
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I'm still loling at the fact that they thought the Mark 1 EMH was too much of a prick, so for the next model they used Andy loving Dick Hahahaha
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Aug 26, 2020 00:47
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My favorite part of that episode is that Andy Dick was repeatedly injuring himself because he wasn't wearing his glasses and didn't have contacts.
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Aug 26, 2020 01:02
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Ok, I went back and watched the Voyager episode Blink of an Eye. The Doctor ends up only being on the planet for three years, not decades, so I was wrong about that. But it's still enough time for him to become an obnoxious sports fan. I mean, if that's not sentience, what is? (it's a really good episode and the alien astronaut they meet is a low-key great performance) SardonicTyrant fucked around with this message at 01:29 on Aug 26, 2020 |
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Aug 26, 2020 01:27
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Where can I watch TOS without the updated SE?
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Aug 26, 2020 01:36
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sponges posted:Where can I watch TOS without the updated SE? I know you can choose on the Blu Rays. Not sure if it is streaming anywhere.
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Aug 26, 2020 01:40
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I've started rewatching DS9 for the fourth time and Garak is still the best character in Star Trek and also fiction
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Aug 26, 2020 02:28
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I wished someone would look at me the way Garak looks at Bashir.
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Aug 26, 2020 02:29
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Froghammer posted:I've started rewatching DS9 for the fourth time and Garak is still the best character in Star Trek and also fiction
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Aug 26, 2020 02:43
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V-Men posted:The most nonsensical thing is why even use medical holograms to do hard labor when you can just have robots do it instead? I guess because holograms can't get damaged? you don't have to clean bodily fluids off of a hologram.
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Aug 26, 2020 02:54
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Continuing TOS Whom Gods Destroy- This episode feels like it should be more interesting than it actually ends up being. It's very similar to Dagger of the Mind (which apparently Nimoy complained about during production). It never really feels like there's any tension, and part of that is because Spock isn't even in the episode that much and most of it is just Kirk and Garth. There's a part at the very end where Garth has some kind of explosive that just disappears from the plot as soon as it appears, because instead we get to do the 'Which One is the Real Kirk' thing that ST6 later also did. This isn't a terrible episode but it's pretty boring.
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Aug 26, 2020 02:55
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TOS season 3 has a lot of that. They still had some great premises, but they seemed to lack the motivation to actually flesh them out. When all else fails, they give Kirk an alien woman of the week because that's easy to write. (It's definitely the worst season as far as that cliché goes.)
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Aug 26, 2020 03:01
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Garth comes off like the Joker or something and it's just strange They also don't explain why after treating him he has no memory of doing all of that stuff including killing a woman.
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Aug 26, 2020 03:04
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Sometimes I think about the fact that McCoy had a way to rig up a brainless Vulcan with a remote control, that remote control had like 4 or 5 big chunky buttons, and one of the buttons was "grab the nearest woman."
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Aug 26, 2020 03:13
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Sash! posted:I'll never agree with the idea. They're machines. Smart machines, but machines. They possess no free will, even if they can mimic free will very well. As best we can tell the human brain is turing-computable and could be wholly emulated by a computer given a complete mapping, so 
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Aug 26, 2020 03:24
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FlamingLiberal posted:Garth comes off like the Joker or something and it's just strange Lots of women die in Kirk's away missions. Or they try to kill him first. They’re what the crew call Kirk's “lost weekends”.
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Aug 26, 2020 03:28
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Sash! posted:You know good and well what I mean. The Borg can do that to organic people. Various species can implant false memories and alternate personalities. The Vulcans can do things to your mind that make the Jedi mind trick look like cheap conjuring. "Free Will" is disturbingly easy to override in the Star Trek universe.
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Aug 26, 2020 04:28
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Angry Salami posted:The Borg can do that to organic people. Various species can implant false memories and alternate personalities. The Vulcans can do things to your mind that make the Jedi mind trick look like cheap conjuring. "Free Will" is disturbingly easy to override in the Star Trek universe. I suspect barring the fantastic concepts of psychic space elves they have the right of it, too. "Free will" and "consciousness" are the result of electrical impulses occurring in three pounds wet meat roughly the consistency of oatmeal. One of the things I find most existentially terrifying are real-world reminders of this. The guy who got axed in the head by his son while sleeping beside his wife and wakes up caked in blood next to her corpse, only for his smashed brain meat to go into auto-pilot and start his morning routine of getting dressed and putting on coffee before he bled out. The phenomenon of leaving babies in hot cars all day-- not because of depraved indifference or cruelty, but just because a monkey wrench in the morning commute threw off someone's already overloaded cognitive state enough that they forgot to drop them at day care. poo poo like the "zombie drug" Flakka that makes you just go nuts and self harm sometimes. Anyway the point is any sufficiently advanced tech could easily rewire your brain and quite possibly re-write your whole personality. Even something as crude as having a railroad spike driven through the human skull was shown to completely upend someones whole "self." Point of all this being once again, since you can't measure "consciousness" or "free will," anything that shows convincing external evidence of it, even if you suspect its only "emulating" it, should be treated as a "person" from a moral standpoint. IINM they basically make the argument in "measure of a man" that human beings are machines, too. E: This line of convo gives me an idea for a plot thread for my RPG campaign, basically exploring the morality of a world where you can "voluntarily" undergo a process they perfected that uses electromagnets to "enjoy work more" or "be more happy" to the point of completely re-writing your personality. Where is the line of ethics on "voluntarily" giving up your "self?" Owlbear Camus fucked around with this message at 05:13 on Aug 26, 2020 |
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Aug 26, 2020 05:01
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Also, we argue about the sense of "self" when it comes to copying a brain into a computer or going through a transporter, but we as humans don't have continuity of consciousness from day to day since we sleep. You could be replaced by a replicant every night and not know. What's the difference between reviving someone with no measurable brain activity and copying that brain while it is inactive and bringing an exact copy up somewhere else that can simulate all the neural connections of the original meatspace? What if the only way you could do that was destructive to the original so there's no way you could have two copies knocking about. Is that still you? We accept the fact that we cant account for a few hours every day, how is that bit when you are "off" and being transferred any different?
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Aug 26, 2020 05:16
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I guess the deeper question is, why make robots at all, then? Not to be flippant, but if Data or other Data-like androids are free willed sentient beings with personhood, then why build them? If we want to make a free willed sentient person, there are ways to do it that are more fun than droid assembly. It only makes sense to make Data or the EMH or whatever if you're making them as tools.
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Aug 26, 2020 05:53
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Epicurius posted:I guess the deeper question is, why make robots at all, then? Not to be flippant, but if Data or other Data-like androids are free willed sentient beings with personhood, then why build them? If we want to make a free willed sentient person, there are ways to do it that are more fun than droid assembly. It only makes sense to make Data or the EMH or whatever if you're making them as tools.
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Aug 26, 2020 06:05
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I've always assumed that all federation humanoid holograms are basically built on top of a common humanoid framework which is the one the Binars created and deployed in 11001001, and it's a bit too capable for its own good and the Binars are the only ones who actually get what it's doing, everyone else is just tweaking parameters. Also don't forget that even today we're not actually very good at understanding what happens inside the networks that are constructed by machine learning. We set them off and train them and honestly they built magic black boxes most of the time and it takes in-depth academic study to decipher what's going on.
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Aug 26, 2020 06:18
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Owlbear Camus posted:Point of all this being once again, since you can't measure "consciousness" or "free will," anything that shows convincing external evidence of it, even if you suspect its only "emulating" it, should be treated as a "person" from a moral standpoint. IINM they basically make the argument in "measure of a man" that human beings are machines, too. I very much came around to this line of thinking after being introduced to the concept of Philosophical Zombies. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophical_zombie quote:The philosophical zombie or p-zombie argument is a thought experiment in philosophy of mind and philosophy of perception that imagines a being that, if it could conceivably exist, logically disproves the idea that physical substance is all that is required to explain consciousness. Such a zombie would be indistinguishable from a normal human being but lack conscious experience, qualia, or sentience.[1] For example, if a philosophical zombie were poked with a sharp object it would not inwardly feel any pain, yet it would outwardly behave exactly as if it did feel pain. The thought experiment sometimes takes the form of imagining a zombie world, indistinguishable from our world, but lacking first person experiences in any of the beings of that world. As far as we can tell in all our experimentation to date, human memory, emotions, intelligence, and sense of self is all derived from physical processes taking place in our brains. If you follow the line of thinking that machines can't be conscious beings, then you have to also accept the possibility that humans are the same. Since it's in our interests to assume that we are in fact conscious, then if other intelligence comes around that appears to also be so, then we should treat it as if it is.
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Aug 26, 2020 07:27
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Side effect of humans being turing-compatible: without introducing some extra concept like a soul, there is nothing that stops consciousness from being entirely runnable and entirely, truly conscious if emulated on a mechanical analytical engine with large enough memory i/o available to it. Although it would be very slow. MikeJF fucked around with this message at 07:49 on Aug 26, 2020 |
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Aug 26, 2020 07:46
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Sir Lemming posted:TOS season 3 has a lot of that. They still had some great premises, but they seemed to lack the motivation to actually flesh them out. When all else fails, they give Kirk an alien woman of the week because that's easy to write. (It's definitely the worst season as far as that cliché goes.) Most of the original writers were gone by that point and the people left pretty much knew that they were only there to pad out the series just long enough to make it saleable in syndication.
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Aug 26, 2020 07:50
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Owlbear Camus posted:Still don't understand why my players chose this deathtrap when I was perfectly happy offering them an Ambassador up front. Hell yeah, I'd pick an Oberth too just for fun. Some people like an underdog. My last (and so far only  ) STA game was a few sessions in a Connie refit.
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Aug 26, 2020 08:07
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Owlbear Camus posted:Sometimes I think about the fact that McCoy had a way to rig up a brainless Vulcan with a remote control, that remote control had like 4 or 5 big chunky buttons, and one of the buttons was "grab the nearest woman." It actually aired in the US eight months prior to 'Spock's Brain', so it's entirely possible someone in the Trek production team saw it before the episode was made...
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Aug 26, 2020 09:31
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Owlbear Camus posted:
This is why I love the game Alpha Centauri Chairman Sheng-ji Yang posted:My gift to industry is the genetically engineered worker, or Genejack. Specially designed for labor, the Genejack's muscles and nerves are ideal for his task, and the cerebral cortex has been atrophied so that he can desire nothing except to perform his duties. Tyranny, you say? How can you tyrannize someone who cannot feel pain?
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Aug 26, 2020 11:34
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I am not sure when I started watching star trek TNG but for christmas one year, must of been 1991, I was given the Star Trek Enterprise-D tech manual. Then later, i am guessing 1994, i was given the first Star Trek Encyclopedia, and I thought it was neat covering TOS, TNG, and DS9 but it covered episodes of DS9 that hadnt aired or I hadnt seen in syndication so it was weird to me to have "wiki" style entries for things I hadnt seen yet. Best of Both Worlds part 1/2 are both 1990 so I am kinda thinking I started watching TNG around 1990ish and I skipped seasons 1 and 2. I remember viewing the season 1 outfists with their color strip color and being like ok that is old "new" star trek and I always liked Dr Pulaski episodes because they were before I started watching and had a character that I never saw after that. Much like the office, I ended up liking the side characters almost more then the main characters. Reginald Barclay, Ensign Ro, Chief Miles O'Brien I always enjoyed seeing episodes with them and most episodes that feature them are usually highly rated Guinan, Q, Lore, Commander Sela, the Duras Sisters I also enjoyed seeing these returning characters I think at the time, every kid liked Data and watching as an adult he is a bit harder to watch seeing how dumb they play him I always liked Worf but the best Worf episode is either when his mate dies or the holodeck with all the Data's, so I think history is nicer to Worf but goddamn the movies just waste all the Worf love i had generations throws away Worf/Troy first contact discounts the Deiant. Damaged by salvageable; get the gently caress out of here. They should of started First Contact with the Enterprise picking up Worf to take him to the Klingon Homeworld for some treaty negotiations when the Borg attack. Picard wants to fight the borg but feels he needs to deliver Worf or the Klingons will be mad, Worf could say something like we both know the Emperor, I think he would allow us to be late if we had to get into a fight. the other 2 TNG movies waste Worf even more Picard the show is ruining Picard the character but Picard was has prob the best episodes and the most character arc. He starts hating wesley, hates children, at one point gets de-aged into a child, all around Picard grows as a leader and as a person. Shame his new show just flushes all that down the toliet
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Aug 26, 2020 15:46
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If you like Worf you really need to watch DS9.
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Aug 26, 2020 16:04
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The TNG movies waste the whole cast. Everyone other than Picard and Data gets sweet fuckall to do and movie Picard is increasingly unlike show Picard to the point where he becomes pretty much Patrick Stewart in space.
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Aug 26, 2020 16:25
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