Crane Fist posted:

I'm extremely interested in hearing more about this

IAMKOREA posted:

just gonna kramer in here without reading pages 2 through 6 and point out that b12 is produced by bacteria in the soil, farm animals are given b12 supplements/injections now since the soil is dead and animals aren't even allowed to live on the soil anyway, and eating meat for b12 given that animals have to have b12 supplements anyway is just taking b12 supplements with extra steps

also not a vegan myself (tried it for one year, it was not great) but the b12 objection is dumb

ohrwurm posted:

i have cats and buy them meat food
i do what i am comfortable with and for those i care about

endlessmonotony posted:

It is important to note that if we engineer wetland so the runoff runs through it and gets to linger a bit, it can be reclaimed by weeds we can feed to animals or compost. In the case of those weeds we can capture the energy by eating the animals, drinking their milk or fermenting them for biogas. Every approach has its upsides and downsides, though the first one... isn't super great.

The only points where animals eating the food and us eating the animals is a preferable approach from a resources perspective are grazing and dealing with damaged / spoiled produce that wouldn't survive the processing required to make it human food.

But unless we entirely ruin the ecosystems of rivers to turn them into filters, this won't be enough to prevent the estuary from accumulating nutrients (and eventually, the sea or ocean - I live close to the Baltic and it's been one hell of a political fight to get the decline to stop). Also the farmers generally don't want to spend a bunch of extra time and dedicate land to stinky pits of recycling. Agricorps even less so.

If we leave it to natural predators the nutrients just stay in the same cycle in the coastal area for the most part, it'll overwhelm the available oxygen, and we're at a point where the ecosystem collapses into a pool of hungry slime.

Crumbskull posted:

its not as interesting as it sounds, there was just a HUGE overlap between early aristocrat organic advocates like (the extremely cool) lady balfour and also out and out blood and soil nationalist german guys who saw organic production methods (at this time largely conceived of as the stuff that guy who wrote that book about composting in china that I cant even think of the name of despite the fact that he is like the godfather of western org. farming[myu brain is full of hole[) as part and parcel with their political program of recreating a kind of cottage farmer based society where the Old Ways are The BEst Ways and the food should be as pure as the blood of the nation.

In the paper I argued that this reactionary tendency actually never went away and explains why so many boomer hippy generation back to the lander types ultimately ended up being reactionary or like, how modern woo woo western nation people will believe in crystal healing and race science at the same time. Basically ecological thinking has always had a pretty large contingent of people who are fascistic and I believe this is under reckoned with. Im trying to find the paper but it was years ago now

Bot 02 posted:

Not to be "that vegan", but veganism is more than just eating plants. It's a philosophy which acknowledges animals' rights not to be harmed and exploited, and eating a plant based diet is a subset of that philosophy, but it also means that you're not necessarily vegan just based on your diet if you don't also subscribe to the philosophy in other aspects of your life.

Bot 02 posted:

Not to be "that vegan", but veganism is more than just eating plants. It's a philosophy which acknowledges animals' rights not to be harmed and exploited, and eating a plant based diet is a subset of that philosophy, but it also means that you're not necessarily vegan just based on your diet if you don't also subscribe to the philosophy in other aspects of your life.

endlessmonotony posted:

B12 is not produced by bacteria in the soil.

Unless you mean nightsoil.

It's produced in the gut microbiome of a lot of herbivores, especially ruminants. Their poo poo gets mixed with the soil and thus soil contains B12.

It's also naturally present in certain types of seaweed.

We can now just ferment it up, we don't need a cow stomach, but figuring out if the process works or not was only possible in 1955, thus marking us being able to solve the deficiency with better answer than "guessing" or "eat cow liver".

Crane Fist posted:

I'm considering becoming a full vegan because I oppose cruelty to animals and loving love gatekeeping, it really strengthens a movement

Grevling posted:

I understand why veganism is alienating to people and think it shouldn't be a part of a socialist political project but it's definitely morally correct I feel. That makes me a centrist, so I ask to be killed immediately.

lumpentroll posted:

lentils will be mandatory

lumpentroll posted:

lentils will be mandatory

Accretionist posted:

Do it ironically posted:

how my vegans doing? thinking about how awesome all y’all are

Pyrotoad posted:

I've tried a bunch of different vital wheat gluten recipes and ended up with a weird spongy moisture-pocket filled texture that's impossible to shape each time, even if the flavour's good. I'm assuming I'm just not kneading enough but I've got some joint things that make kneading... unpleasant. What can I do?

Do it ironically posted:

had to go to a mandatory funday Friday lunch where work bought everyone pizza and sides but I couldn�t eat anything, gently caress yeah

Bot 02 posted:

Hmm, I've never had a problem like that, been making this recipe and this recipe. Maybe you can try kneading it in a kitchen machine? Are you tightly wrapping it in foil or cloth before cooking it?

Pyrotoad posted:

I'll give those a shot - neither of the recipes I followed happened to include those steps. I don't have a stand mixer so maybe that can go on the christmas list. Thanks for the advice!

Bot 02 posted:

You're welcome! I haven't tried making unwrapped seitan, but I assume it's pretty important for the firmness.

Wamsutta posted:

The duality of thought for people who claim to care about climate change but also still eat meat is straight up lol

quote:

U.S. land capacity for feeding people could expand with dietary changes

A new �food-print� model that measures the per-person land requirements of different diets suggests that, with dietary changes, the U.S. could feed significantly more people from existing agricultural land. Using ten different scenarios ranging from the average American diet to a purely vegan one, a team led by scientists from the Friedman School of Nutrition Science and Policy at Tufts University estimated that agricultural land in the contiguous U.S. could have the capacity to feed up to 800 million people�twice what can be supported based on current average diets.

The researchers found that a vegetarian diet that includes dairy products could feed the most people from the area of land available. [...]

...

The research team found that:

[...]

- The baseline diet had the lowest carrying capacity and required eight times more land than a vegan diet.

[...]

To develop the model, the team began with an estimate of hypothetical food intake by food group. They then worked backwards to calculate the food quantity that must be produced, the agricultural raw material needed to produce those foods, the total land requirements, and the number of people who can be fed from the land used to produce those foods. The model accounts for factors such as the suitability of cropland for cultivation, the interdependencies of dairy and meat production, and the use of coproducts of food production to feed livestock.

...

quote:

Eat less meat: UN climate-change report calls for change to human diet

baw posted:

the social aspect of veganism is one of the toughest parts but real friends will make vegan stuff when they invite you over for food

Wamsutta posted:

this month is 4 years since I stopped eating animal products and it rules. i lost about 15lbs and maintained muscle/strength. safe to say at this stage I'm never going back. this thread is cool and good. the duality of thought for people who claim to care about climate change but also still eat meat is straight up lol

Accretionist posted:

Helpful, too! I'm in-process of switching. Habits, etc.

That said...

SUPPLEMENTAL READING:

On carrying-capacity. Yes, the world can go vegan. In fact, it's nearly optimal for maximizing carrying-capacity.


On GHG implications. Yes, vegan is optimal.


Veganism. Best for climate. More than capable of feeding everyone.

Bot 02 posted:

So this is something I've been struggling with ever since I first became a vegan and I'd like some input

Hummus: food of the gods or overrated?

Bot 02 posted:

So this is something I've been struggling with ever since I first became a vegan and I'd like some input

Hummus: food of the gods or overrated?