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Some Christians are convinced it's a satanic plot to teach kids about Islam because they'll trick the kids into saying the secret words that make you a forever Muslim and drat your soul to hell. I think there's even a Chick tract where someone is like "I'm going to teach you some cool Arabic just repeat after me" and the Christian hero shows up just in time to stop their friend from being tricked into Hell. Aha, yep I looked it up and here it is: 
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Dec 3, 2020 03:22
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Evangelical christians are great because they’re constantly besieged by powerful magic of all kinds and their god is too weak to stop it or protect them. Witches can make my game of dungeons and dragons better and compel my dad to get me all the books for it. What the gently caress can Jehovah do? He needs people to burn Kiss records for him or else he’ll vanish like Captain Planet after he falls into a smokestack.
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Dec 3, 2020 03:26
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Does Hinduism even have a conversion process? Abrahamic religions do because Judaism made it a requirement to either be born into the covenant or voluntarily sign on which ended up spilling over to the religions that came after but Eastern religions tend to not have that requirement.
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Dec 3, 2020 03:27
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RagnarokAngel posted:Does Hinduism even have a conversion process? Abrahamic religions do because Judaism made it a requirement to either be born into the covenant or voluntarily sign on which ended up spilling over to the religions that came after but Eastern religions tend to not have that requirement. Hinduism is a very broad term covering multiple local traditions, sects etc so it would really depend.
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Dec 3, 2020 03:30
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Don Gato posted:Hinduism is a very broad term covering multiple local traditions, sects etc so it would really depend. I knew the first part so I should have guessed, that's fair.
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Dec 3, 2020 03:32
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Twelve by Pies posted:Some Christians are convinced it's a satanic plot to teach kids about Islam because they'll trick the kids into saying the secret words that make you a forever Muslim and drat your soul to hell. I think there's even a Chick tract where someone is like "I'm going to teach you some cool Arabic just repeat after me" and the Christian hero shows up just in time to stop their friend from being tricked into Hell. Famous religion that only requires lip-service and not devout faith : Islam. Don Gato posted:Can't, charts are Satan as well. Why do you think they attacked D&D so hard? All that talk of magic and demons was a cover for the true satanic power of charts. O loving hell. Aren't you even from an area with a good amount of Japanese immigrants? I'm the the whitest white to ever white from a family that whites so hard we poo poo bleach, but we'd just ask you politely what you said out of curiosity because we realize other languages exist.
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Dec 3, 2020 03:39
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Somfin posted:Born again? They always repaint their pasts as being horrendous and vile. my question is do they all know its bullshit. i have brought this up on other threads but its like watching those evangelicals on the weird little evangelical shows, talk about how they were shivas super general or some poo poo and raised to be super rapists and did every crime but than find jesus. why lie to each other. is it some emperors no clothes thing where they all want to look like believers but better or is it some American psycho poo poo but instead of business cards its bullshit conversion stories. Twelve by Pies posted:Some Christians are convinced it's a satanic plot to teach kids about Islam because they'll trick the kids into saying the secret words that make you a forever Muslim and drat your soul to hell. I think there's even a Chick tract where someone is like "I'm going to teach you some cool Arabic just repeat after me" and the Christian hero shows up just in time to stop their friend from being tricked into Hell. yeah evangelicals love magic words and poo poo. its loving weird. like i read weird religious histories/theology as a hobby but conservative evangelicalism is the loving worst(along with Wahhabism) but they are both empty reactionary bullshit thats all about finding the easiet ways out and hurting others.
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Dec 3, 2020 03:49
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Xiahou Dun posted:Famous religion that only requires lip-service and not devout faith : Islam. I remember growing up in a Texas suburb and having a dozen or so churches asking me to sign my name in their guestbook in exchange for local fast food coupons. They genuinely believed bribing teenagers into going to church once allowed them to save those innocent souls with God Magic, so why wouldn't the inverse be true? All Jamal your friendly Pakistani neighbor has to do is be nice once and suddenly your soul is dammed for all eternity for worshiping Satan who was pretending to be God the whole time EDIT: Dapper_Swindler posted:why lie to each other. is it some emperors no clothes thing where they all want to look like believers but better or is it some American psycho poo poo but instead of business cards its bullshit conversion stories. Emperor's No Clothes is the best way to put it. When no one calls anyone on their bullshit you can count on the believers next to you to have your back when you need them to DarklyDreaming fucked around with this message at 04:00 on Dec 3, 2020 |
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Dec 3, 2020 03:56
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As someone who grew up for a brief time in my teenage years in the Evangelical sphere: The more pathetic and ridiculous their former life is, the more "sinful", the more they have changed (while believing they are superior to every other religion and believe that at least 4/5ths of the Human populace is going to Hell). You can also justify all the lovely things you do now and judge people, because you are a better person now It's like a "share your best conversion story" and you get instantly more clout the more hosed up you say you were It's a cult, and a social clique at the same time TulliusCicero fucked around with this message at 04:34 on Dec 3, 2020 |
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Dec 3, 2020 04:03
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DarklyDreaming posted:I remember growing up in a Texas suburb and having a dozen or so churches asking me to sign my name in their guestbook in exchange for local fast food coupons. They genuinely believed bribing teenagers into going to church once allowed them to save those innocent souls with God Magic, so why wouldn't the inverse be true? All Jamal your friendly Pakistani neighbor has to do is be nice once and suddenly your soul is dammed for all eternity for worshiping Satan who was pretending to be God the whole time thats gross. like i get you can say this about all religiouns/etc but being that shallow and everything being built on bullshit transactions and lies seems bad. no wonder they are chuds.
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Dec 3, 2020 04:04
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They don’t understand the difference between truth and fiction in the same sense as everyone else because they place the highest value on things that aren’t literally real or true but also can’t understand what a metaphor is.
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Dec 3, 2020 04:10
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Xiahou Dun posted:Famous religion that only requires lip-service and not devout faith : Islam. Well, in a sense, that's not entirely true. My understanding is that Islamic jurisprudence holds that you're a Muslim as soon as you knowingly recite the confession of faith. Whether you consider yourself a Muslim or practice the religion makes no difference (you might be a "bad" Muslim but you are still a Muslim), and I believe some schools of Islamic jurisprudence believe that, provided you've recited the confession of faith, then ultimately you're Muslim no matter what and Allah is the most forgiving, etc. etc. The larger question is: if you don't believe in Islam, why would you care? If it's all made up, then their rules make no difference to anyone and you can continue being a Christian or an atheist or anything else you want to be.
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Dec 3, 2020 04:49
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In theory, the "I was a super bad person and committed all the crimes multiple times but then found Jesus" serves two purposes. One, it allows them to reach out to people who have fallen on hard times. There's the idea that people will think "I'm not good enough to be saved, it's pointless" and the idea is that by saying you were just as bad (or worse) as other people, and you are saved, those people will go "Oh, I guess I can believe in Jesus after all." Two, it reinforces the Protestant idea of "faith saves you and works are meaningless," that it doesn't matter what horrible things you did because if you say the magic words you're saved and the bad things you did don't matter. The grossest, most vile example of this is the Chick tract Lisa where a father who's sexually abusing his daughter gets found out by a doctor, who tells him to pray to Jesus, and then the father comes home and says "I'm not going to molest you anymore honey, isn't it great?" and he doesn't go to jail or anything because he said the magic words so all the crimes he did aren't important anymore. In reality, as others have said, it's just a way to try and make themselves look cool and gain clout with other people who believe the same as they do. Some of them also probably think it makes them look cool to older kids/teens to say they did all this crazy stuff but then they found out Jesus is the greatest of all. Antifa Turkeesian posted:They don't understand the difference between truth and fiction in the same sense as everyone else because they place the highest value on things that aren't literally real or true but also can't understand what a metaphor is. Which is weird when you think about it because one of the things Jesus is best known for is telling parables, like whether there actually was a prodigal son or not doesn't matter because it's just trying to illustrate a spiritual truth.
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Dec 3, 2020 04:54
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Twelve by Pies posted:The grossest, most vile example of this is the Chick tract Lisa where a father who's sexually abusing his daughter gets found out by a doctor, who tells him to pray to Jesus, and then the father comes home and says "I'm not going to molest you anymore honey, isn't it great?" and he doesn't go to jail or anything because he said the magic words so all the crimes he did aren't important anymore. 
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Dec 3, 2020 05:03
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Dapper_Swindler posted:my question is do they all know its bullshit It reinforces their beliefs, which makes it more true than something that is merely real. Asking whether or not it actually happened is asking the wrong question.
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Dec 3, 2020 05:10
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RagnarokAngel posted:Abrahamic religions do because Judaism made it a requirement to either be born into the covenant or voluntarily sign on which ended up spilling over to the religions that came after but Eastern religions tend to not have that requirement. Broadly speaking, all religious devotions have initiation rites of some kind. That can be the recitation of a formula, a baptism, a circumcision, a big party, whatever. (Lots of devotions have several, and they have many features.) Specific cults will have specific initiations, which might or might not look like "conversion." The reason Christian initiation looks the way it does has very little to do with Judaism (which did not historically and does not presently have a robust tradition of conversion) but with Mediterranean mystery religions of the first centuries AD. The religious landscape was highly synchretistic--that is, you could mix and match from among religious traditions--and there were lots of religious groups that offered you hidden knowledge in exchange for hanging out with them and learning their ways and often giving them a good amount of money. This hidden knowledge was generally how to live so that a specific patron deity would take care of you in the afterlife (Demeter, Dionysus, Isis, Jesus). That synchretistic and gnostic quality also make these religions fairly evangelical (in the sense of reaching out and trying to attract new followers). So an initiation in this context--accompanied by new knowledge, requiring a personal choice--seems different from some initiation rites like say a bar/bat mitzvah (or a high school graduation or whatever).
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Dec 3, 2020 05:24
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Twelve by Pies posted:The grossest, most vile example of this is the Chick tract Lisa where a father who's sexually abusing his daughter gets found out by a doctor, who tells him to pray to Jesus, and then the father comes home and says "I'm not going to molest you anymore honey, isn't it great?" and he doesn't go to jail or anything because he said the magic words so all the crimes he did aren't important anymore. No the gross part about this is that she immediately forgives him for everything because obviously he wasn't in control of his actions and now he swears that he is in control and that he'll be better so she believes he will He doesn't even apologise because he's already been forgiven, ya see
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Dec 3, 2020 05:29
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PT6A posted:Well, in a sense, that's not entirely true. My understanding is that Islamic jurisprudence holds that you're a Muslim as soon as you knowingly recite the confession of faith. Whether you consider yourself a Muslim or practice the religion makes no difference (you might be a "bad" Muslim but you are still a Muslim), and I believe some schools of Islamic jurisprudence believe that, provided you've recited the confession of faith, then ultimately you're Muslim no matter what and Allah is the most forgiving, etc. etc. I mean, even in Islam you can't be tricked into saying the shahadah. I mean, I guess you can be tricked into saying the words, but that doesn't count. You need to recite it three times, sincerely, in front of witnesses. You can't accidentally boffa/ligma your way into Islam. Twelve by Pies posted:In theory, the "I was a super bad person and committed all the crimes multiple times but then found Jesus" serves two purposes. One, it allows them to reach out to people who have fallen on hard times. There's the idea that people will think "I'm not good enough to be saved, it's pointless" and the idea is that by saying you were just as bad (or worse) as other people, and you are saved, those people will go "Oh, I guess I can believe in Jesus after all." Also, this tradition helped fuel the Satanic Panic because a lot of hucksters told conversion stories about how they were doing human sacrifices and all kinds of ridiculous poo poo when they were in the secret satanic cults until Jesus saved them. It made for really juicy stories, and evangelicals lapped it up. It got so common that some neo-pagan groups who were trying to fight the satanic panic started going to these hucksters' events and calling the police when they told these stories, because if it was actually true then they just confessed to committing murder in front of an entire audience. (The fact that the regular evangelical audience never even thought to do this is very telling.)
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Dec 3, 2020 05:59
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Dang It Bhabhi! posted:So it doesn’t exist but it does. People in cults are clearly acting completely of their own free will. Most people in QAnon are acting of their own free will, they just have exceptionally stupid and misinformed beliefs. Somfin posted:No the gross part about this is that she immediately forgives him for everything because obviously he wasn't in control of his actions and now he swears that he is in control and that he'll be better so she believes he will Ugh. And this, right here, is exactly how church sex abuse gets covered up. Sucrose fucked around with this message at 06:12 on Dec 3, 2020 |
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Dec 3, 2020 06:05
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LanceHunter posted:Also, this tradition helped fuel the Satanic Panic because a lot of hucksters told conversion stories about how they were doing human sacrifices and all kinds of ridiculous poo poo when they were in the secret satanic cults until Jesus saved them. It made for really juicy stories, and evangelicals lapped it up. It got so common that some neo-pagan groups who were trying to fight the satanic panic started going to these hucksters' events and calling the police when they told these stories, because if it was actually true then they just confessed to committing murder in front of an entire audience. (The fact that the regular evangelical audience never even thought to do this is very telling.) I never heard this before, that's pretty cool.
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Dec 3, 2020 06:14
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LanceHunter posted:I mean, even in Islam you can't be tricked into saying the shahadah. I mean, I guess you can be tricked into saying the words, but that doesn't count. You need to recite it three times, sincerely, in front of witnesses. You can't accidentally boffa/ligma your way into Islam. So did they get arrested? The neopagans, I mean. Obviously not the christians.
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Dec 3, 2020 06:17
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Sucrose posted:Most people in QAnon are acting of their own free will, they just have exceptionally stupid and misinformed beliefs. I think it is reasonable to state that a large portion are having their fragile mental state exploited by whatever powers control the account/tripcode (Watkinses and whoever is working with them) for their own dumb ends. 🤷♂️
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Dec 3, 2020 06:23
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pT_QRKfv8H4
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Dec 3, 2020 06:25
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Just realized that the Dragnet movie with Dan Aykroyd has the same plot as the first season of True Detective.
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Dec 3, 2020 06:28
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I never even knew that was a movie, and I sure as poo poo didn't realize there was a music video with Tom Hanks and Dan Akroyd doing a dance routine with a bunch of people in goat/satyr/whatever costumes
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Dec 3, 2020 06:31
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Dang It Bhabhi! posted:I think it is reasonable to state that a large portion are having their fragile mental state exploited by whatever powers control the account/tripcode (Watkinses and whoever is working with them) for their own dumb ends. 🤷♂️ Right. I'm just saying that belief in mystical mind-control-type brainwashing being a real thing is something that led to people being harmed in the past and probably hurt the anti-cult movement far more than it helped it. In the 1980s the Cult Awareness Network got sued into oblivion and had their name purchased by Scientology because a guy associated with them named Rick Ross had kidnapped someone and they were found liable for it.
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Dec 3, 2020 06:51
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betaraywil posted:Broadly speaking, all religious devotions have initiation rites of some kind. That can be the recitation of a formula, a baptism, a circumcision, a big party, whatever. (Lots of devotions have several, and they have many features.) Specific cults will have specific initiations, which might or might not look like "conversion." Im a Jew but I think you are underestimating how much the Covenant of God stuff has an impact on Christianity. Christianity had its start as a Jewish sect, and there were even discussions about if you had to adopt Jewish practices or even be Jewish to be a Christian (rather wisely the decision was "no" as circumcision would likely be a non starter). Judaism wasnt evangelical but it did have systems in place if someone wanted to sign on, it just wasnt actively looking for people. Christianity adopted the baptism from Judaism (who likely adopted it from others) and both required a firm committment to this new faith system. This does get a bit muddled because there were several competing sects and when the Catholic church sort of won out in Rome they tended to want to suppress any other schools of thought, but Christianity was notable for not being syncretic and requiring you commit to it, much like Judaism before it. Christianity was just a lot more active in trying to pull people in and had a pretty decent offer going to boot.
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Dec 3, 2020 07:37
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I don't think all religions have initiation rites. Broadly speaking, religion isn't about swearing loyalty to a team, it's about describing what goes on the spiritual world, which you presumably believe is true regardless of what anyone else thinks. So when, like, Buddhism spreads to other cultures, it doesn't go "you have to swear devotion to Buddha or you're going to Hell!" it just says "well, here are some tricks to improve your odds of getting reincarnated somewhere nice." Buddhism doesn't ask its believers to replace their local religions, or to stop praying to their local gods, it just has some big ideas about how the world works as a whole. Polytheism in general rather easily accepts the existence of foreign gods too. They often end up added to the pantheon. Monotheism is more of the exception, since by definition it cannot coexist with other religious beliefs. But even then a lot of local gods end up as saints or demons. Clarste fucked around with this message at 08:04 on Dec 3, 2020 |
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Dec 3, 2020 08:00
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RagnarokAngel posted:Im a Jew but I think you are underestimating how much the Covenant of God stuff has an impact on Christianity. Christianity had its start as a Jewish sect, and there were even discussions about if you had to adopt Jewish practices or even be Jewish to be a Christian (rather wisely the decision was "no" as circumcision would likely be a non starter). The big one for Christianity was Sol Invictus, the unconquered sun. Constantine's father was starting his career when the emperor Aurelian attempted to institute Sol Invictus as a state religion to the empire. Halos, worship on Sunday, the date of Christmas, all have their roots in Sol Invictus. In fact Constantine hedged his bets until the very end, inventing new symbols (the Chi Rho, the Labarum) that could be interpreted as either Christian or not, depending on your own biases.
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Dec 3, 2020 09:39
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Michael Flynn posted that Trump should suspend the Constitution and enact martial law.
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Dec 3, 2020 12:04
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I remember when Obama was definitely going to do that and it was terrible.
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Dec 3, 2020 12:28
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The difference in trump and obama is trump definitely listens to lunatics that say "suspend the Constitution"
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Dec 3, 2020 12:41
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Somfin posted:No the gross part about this is that she immediately forgives him for everything because obviously he wasn't in control of his actions and now he swears that he is in control and that he'll be better so she believes he will  Holy loving poo poo. I knew Jack Chick was a freak, but what the actual gently caress The projection argument about Qanon continues to gain validity by the day... 
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Dec 3, 2020 13:07
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The great tragedy of Trump is that even if he would try the levers of power that would grant him a second term despite losing the election, he doesn't know how, and the cronies he would outsource it to are unable. Put it this way: despite the exalted position the US military occupies in the Qanon canon (they think a bunch of hero army soldiers just sacrified their lives in a firefight in the serverfarms of Frankfurt), the military, from the generals to the officers to the enlisted, are broadly sick of Trump, and will not support him as CiC post Jan 20. Like the only troops that still love him are marines and Navy Seals, aka the dumbest and most blowhard troops. The only levers of power he can really call on are the police and DHS/CBP, and they don't have the geographic and cross-institutional influence to force other power centers violate the constitution in Trump's favor.
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Dec 3, 2020 13:18
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pop fly to McGillicutty posted:Michael Flynn posted that Trump should suspend the Constitution and enact martial law. i think that wildly overestimates how much Generals like Trump.
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Dec 3, 2020 13:20
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Ambitious Spider posted:i think that wildly overestimates how much Generals like Trump. Didn't the Pentagon just release a video like last month near explicitly stating they will not become involved in any election dispute.
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Dec 3, 2020 13:26
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pop fly to McGillicutty posted:The difference in trump and obama is trump definitely listens to lunatics that say "suspend the Constitution"
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Dec 3, 2020 14:07
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Sucrose posted:Right. I'm just saying that belief in mystical mind-control-type brainwashing being a real thing is something that led to people being harmed in the past and probably hurt the anti-cult movement far more than it helped it. In the 1980s the Cult Awareness Network got sued into oblivion and had their name purchased by Scientology because a guy associated with them named Rick Ross had kidnapped someone and they were found liable for it. I wonder if this is the same Rick Ross who has been cited in the recent documentaries about NXIVM, The Vow (HBO) and Seduced (Starz). My guess? Yes.
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Dec 3, 2020 14:23
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Guavanaut posted:Well yeah, but the conspiracy theory was that Obama would suspend the Constitution and enact martial law and was believed by the exact same smooth brained people that believe that Trump should suspend the Constitution and enact martial law. They were terrified he would do it because it's exactly what they would do
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Dec 3, 2020 14:56
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Just imagine how even crazier the unhinged conspiracies around Jade Helm 15 would have been had Qanon been a thing under Obama's administration. I can't, I just can't.
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Dec 3, 2020 15:26
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